Jeter and Yankees are holding a press conference this afternoon and the content of the PC is TBD. I wonder if this is it for him.
Derek Jeter: Countdown to Retirement
- Thread starter jon abbey
- Start date
- Status
That would be horrible! It would mean the end of Derek Jeter's Diary posts on Grantland. If you haven't seen them, you're missing out on a real treat.
RedOctober3829 said:
I doubt it but if you're right it might be the first time I watch ESPN in about 5 years. The reactions would be extremely entertaining.
This press conference was announced last week. Jeter will talk about his situation. He wasn't too communicative last week when the new injury was found. So he is coming to NY to placate the media. Don't expect any big revelations. It will be classic Jeter, eyes looking forward, focused on a target that is getting harder to hit.
Hey, I like your posts, but could you help me on something. How come Sox fans can't look at Jeter objectively? I feel like I respect him objectively. He was an excellent offensive shortstop with range issues. The first game of 1996, he went back and caught a fly ball in medium left field, back to the field, that nobody else could have caught. A rookie. I fell in love with him at that moment. If you're a baseball fan, why not? To love someone for 17 years, in real life or just as a baseball fan, that's hard. But with this era of Yankees, we had to the chance to do that with Jeter and Pettitte, Rivera and Posada, who was a tough call.Trlicek's Whip said:
I grew up on Mantle, in an era when star players spent their careers with one team. Jeter, Pettitte, Rivera, Posada. Boston has a different philosophy. Nobody stays forever, except for Papi. And you know what? I love David Ortiz.
So the press conference was just that he's still planning to come back and that he doesn't get MLB TV package at home
MakMan44 said:
Yeah, when Jeter does announce he's all done I would actually expect something nice for him in his last appearance at Fenway. He's certainly respected, like Mo is.
I'm a Sox fan, and I have the following feelings about Jeter.terrynever said:
1) I think he's very good at baseball, and I respect that about him.
2) He's a very good baseball player for the Yankees, so I want him to fail whenever possible. He disappoints me often, which is of course unpleasant.
3) I suspect he's probably mostly a decent guy as a person, which makes it harder to dislike him as a baseball player. That creates some cognitive dissonance where I need excuses to dislike him as much as I need to dislike him because he succeeds for the Yankees.
4) Sports commentators, writers who vote on GGs, etc love him too much. I know you're not the only Yankees fan who understands his lack of range, but there are a lot of people who don't get that. Between that and the stuff that led to the "Captain Intangibles" with his "Calm eyes" etc, he became the poster boy for players who are overrated relative to their statistics (and, you know, actual performance). Part of that is because he actually is good, so the overrating gets lots of attention, and I think we all understand that. It's frustrating seeing a good player perceived as a god, especially when he plays for your favortie team's rival.
terrynever said:
Speaking for myself, most of my pushback on Jeter comes from being fed the "intangibles" line along with the "just being a Yankee makes you a winner" line (along with the inveitable Boston corollary), which I had to put up with from the local Yankee fans for years in the late 90's through 2004 (I never disliked the Yankees before that, believe it or not). I realize this is not your issue, terry, just laying it out there.
Anyway, thinking hard about it, I guess I do respect Jeter, who has pretty much stayed above the fray and behaved in a sportsmanlike way in addition to being an outstanding offensive player. So, while he's not Mo in my book, whom I *really* like, I will certainly loudly applaud him when he comes around on his retirement tour.
terrynever said:
Terry, we've talked about this before. You are confusing the general mockery of the cult of Jeter with a sense that we don't appreciate the player.
I think almost all Sox fans have a healthy respect for Jeter. It's hard not to - if you look at the totality of his career he's one of the top shortstops in history. But that respect is tempered by the fact that the Jeter cultists in the media and among the fan base do not allow for any objectivity when looking at him. He must be perceived as being without blemishes of any kind or spittle begins to form in the corners of their mouths as they begin to form a sentence around the word "intangibles" in their head.
This behavior is mockable, and so we mock. Sometime that mockery is over the top. But our target is not Jeter - it's the caricature of a perfect ballplayer that has been built over the past two decades by the military-industrial propaganda complex that surrounds all things associated with Captain Intangibles.
Okay. Sorry I didn't recognize the distinction. I was just reacting initially to the false speculation upthread that Thursday's press conference might have some significance, that it might even be a retirement party.Average Reds said:
To add to RA's point, two things specifically drive me crazy about the Jeter ball washing. First, this idea that he's such a great leader. I've never seen him act like one. All of the ARod episodes come to mind. Instead of trying to diffuse the situation or come out in defense of one of his teammates, his actions only seemed to fuel the fire and caused increased speculation that Jeter actually does hate ARod.
Second, people blindly attribute the Yankees' success in the mid to late 90s to Jeter's arrival. They ignore the fact that Rivera, Posada, Pettitte, and others also were a huge part of that dynasty. Not to mention, they continued to add great players throughout the next 15 years and outspent everyone in baseball by huge margins. And while Jeter was certainly a big part of their success, his contributions are always overblown.
Second, people blindly attribute the Yankees' success in the mid to late 90s to Jeter's arrival. They ignore the fact that Rivera, Posada, Pettitte, and others also were a huge part of that dynasty. Not to mention, they continued to add great players throughout the next 15 years and outspent everyone in baseball by huge margins. And while Jeter was certainly a big part of their success, his contributions are always overblown.
Perspective? What the hell does that mean? The guy is having trouble coming back in his late 30's, had a setback, then I hear that he schedules a press conference which nobody really knows why he did it. It is logical to think that something could be up. Stop being so damn sensitive when it comes to Red Sox fans on a Red Sox board.terrynever said:
It's been covered aplenty since my last post. Of course Jeter is Jeterian and a good player and I respect his play. It's the narrative and hagiography that's been endowed to him his entire career that's tough to stomach and very easy to poke fun at.
I moved to NYC in 1996, which was the start of the Jeter era, and have lived here ever since. I've had a front-row seat to the boilerplate talking points and sainthood.
I moved to NYC in 1996, which was the start of the Jeter era, and have lived here ever since. I've had a front-row seat to the boilerplate talking points and sainthood.
The Jeter discussion will make a fascinating study someday, if it's done by someone relatively neutral. It's amazing that someone could somehow be both overrated for basically his whole career and still end up as one of the handful of best shortstops to ever play the game, defensive deficiencies and all.
Easier to keep your players forever when cost is no object, don't forget that. Derek wouldn't be a lifetime Royal or Pirate. At least platonically.
And while the fist bump thing is annoying, and that fact he was out of position on the JeGiambi play, and Giambi should have slid, and despite all that he was still safe is irksome, I no longer feel hate toward him. He's really done nothing to deserve it beyond the team he plays for, which is legit, but compartmentalized.
I don't hate Jeter. I think the vitriol is more a hate of the way Yankee fans and certain media ballwash him.
And while the fist bump thing is annoying, and that fact he was out of position on the JeGiambi play, and Giambi should have slid, and despite all that he was still safe is irksome, I no longer feel hate toward him. He's really done nothing to deserve it beyond the team he plays for, which is legit, but compartmentalized.
I don't hate Jeter. I think the vitriol is more a hate of the way Yankee fans and certain media ballwash him.
I know what you mean, and I agree to an extent, but I think the fact that he's good is part of why he got so overrated. Eckstein got overrated a bunch too, but even the people who overrated him didn't think he was one of the best in the game. Jeter really has been one of the best in the game, so you stack up intangible BS and hugely overrated defense on top of that, and you end up with at least a demigod. People are already paying attention to him because he's actually good, and then they pay more attention to him for bad reasons, and he gets too much adoration.jon abbey said:
Maybe another way to say it is it's hard to be ridiculously overrated if you're not really worth rating at all.
Take away all the undeserved gold gloves and I might not roll my eyes every time Yankee fans talk about how awesome he is on defense. One of the greatest hitters? I'll give him that.
Isn't anyone going to even suggest Jeter is totally insufferable as a celebrity? The hand to the umpire before stepping into the box, the above-it-all attitude to the media, the celebrity girlfriends. <br /><br />There's a debate going on in V&N about Bush's presidency and people are saying, I'm sure he's a good guy and all. This feels totally the same -- like people are trying to be revisionist. <br /><br />We're all sitting here crapping on the Yankees' arrogance but we're not going to account any of it to their Captain? Really?
I finally gained a healthy dose of respect for Jeter in Game 7 of the 2004 ALCS. The rest of that team seemingly were working on tee times by the 2nd inning. Jeter was busting his ass and trying to get the disinterested mercenaries to fight back when they had already mentally quit.
terrynever said:
This article is a great example of the Jeter ballwashing that so many Sox fans find frustrating.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/9227155/new-york-yankees-shortstop-derek-jeter-greatness-goes-numbers-espn-magazine
"Jeter, along with possibly Ken Griffey Jr., is the only player in the modern game whose iconic moments were generated by all five tools"
"He will be equally celebrated for his fielding and throwing"
Jeter's missing almost all of 2013 has made it much harder for him to get to 3500 by the end of this season. He is at 3316 now, so 184 short, and he has averaged 186 in his last three seasons (not counting 2012). He will be increasingly getting into late career Pete Rose 'hurting his team while boosting his hits total' territory, especially anytime he DHs against a RHP, but if he can stay healthy, it will likely be close as to whether he makes it.
Hypothesizing even more, that might make it easier for him to call it quits after this season, although he seems like he may have to be dragged off in the end, kicking and screaming and holding onto the second base bag (or more accurately, lying face down 20 feet to the SS side, heh).
Hypothesizing even more, that might make it easier for him to call it quits after this season, although he seems like he may have to be dragged off in the end, kicking and screaming and holding onto the second base bag (or more accurately, lying face down 20 feet to the SS side, heh).
So let's try an experiment to help get us all through the year of JeterHype, we will use this thread for legitimate accomplishments (passing Paul Molitor for 8th on the hits list the other night) and praise. The other thread should have all of the venting, legit or not, about the incessant ball-washing.
YES ran a list today that Jeter is now #1 alltime in hits for a RHH in the AL, that is just insane. I can't find the list, though, and don't see how to sort that way at BR. Can someone smarter than me list the top ten? Thanks.
YES ran a list today that Jeter is now #1 alltime in hits for a RHH in the AL, that is just insane. I can't find the list, though, and don't see how to sort that way at BR. Can someone smarter than me list the top ten? Thanks.
Also the main thing I am personally watching is what I mentioned in the prior post, the quest for 3500. 5 hits through 7 team games (he sat once) projects to 116, or 3432. A couple of multi-hit games bumps that up quickly, obviously.
I'm not smarter than you but it looks like everyone ahead of Jeter either played in the NL or hit lefthanded.jon abbey said:
1. Pete Rose (24) 4256 B
2. Ty Cobb+ (24) 4189 L
3. Hank Aaron+ (23) 3771 R
4. Stan Musial+ (22) 3630 L
5. Tris Speaker+ (22) 3514 L
6. Cap Anson+ (27) 3435 R
7. Honus Wagner+ (21) 3420 R
8. Carl Yastrzemski+ (23) 3419 L
9. Derek Jeter (20, 40) 3320 R
10. Paul Molitor+ (21) 3319 R
11. Eddie Collins+ (25) 3315 L
p.s. -- Jeter also has the fewest seasons on this list.
Also it looks like he will pass Gehrig for second on the alltime Yankee runs list soon (both way behind Ruth), that would make him 11th alltime (A-Rod is currently 10th):
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/R_career.shtml
If A-Rod never plays again, Jeter could end up ahead in the end here. I'd still bet A-Rod, but something else worth keeping an eye on.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/R_career.shtml
If A-Rod never plays again, Jeter could end up ahead in the end here. I'd still bet A-Rod, but something else worth keeping an eye on.
I ran the AL list on B-R. Rather than do all the work of creating a spreadsheet to post in here, here's the top 10
1. Cobb 4189
2. Speaker 3514
3. Yaz 3419
4. Jeter 3321
5. Molitor 3319
6. Eddie Collins 3315
7. Ripken 3184
8. Brett 3154
9. Yount 3142
10. Carew 3053
1. Cobb 4189
2. Speaker 3514
3. Yaz 3419
4. Jeter 3321
5. Molitor 3319
6. Eddie Collins 3315
7. Ripken 3184
8. Brett 3154
9. Yount 3142
10. Carew 3053
This link might work.jon abbey said:
- Jeter 3321
- Molitor 3319
- Ripken 3184
- Yount 3142
- Kaline 3007
- ARod 2939
- Brooks Robinson 2848
- Al Simmons 2831
- Luke Appling 2749
- Aparicio 2677
- Jeter 3321
- ARod 2939
- Konerko 2250
- Hunter 2176
- Rios 1552
- Beltre 1483
- Peralta 1369
- Pedroia 1228
- Cabrera 1160
- Kinsler 1152
- Butler 1128
- Cuddyer 1106
- Kendrick 1031
- Ellis 1015
A bit of a long shot, particularly in light of this year's lack of participation, but just imagine the crowd reaction if A Rod managed to pass Jeter in a home game in 2017.
DrewDawg said:
I hate to type this but he doesnt have more than most of them (either in PAs or ABs). Bolded numbers indicate more
1. Pete Rose (24) 4256 B (15890 PA / 14053 AB)
2. Ty Cobb+ (24) 4189 L (13084/11434)
3. Hank Aaron+ (23) 3771 R (13941/12364)
4. Stan Musial+ (22) 3630 L (12717/10972)
5. Tris Speaker+ (22) 3514 L (11992/10195)
6. Cap Anson+ (27) 3435 R (11331/10281)
7. Honus Wagner+ (21) 3420 R (11748/10439)
8. Carl Yastrzemski+ (23) 3419 L (13992/11988)
9. Derek Jeter (20, 40) 3320 R (11993/10634)
10. Paul Molitor+ (21) 3319 R (12167/10835)
11. Eddie Collins+ (25) 3315 L (12044/9949)
It must be tempting for an opposing manager to forego a left fielder, shade the shortstop toward second base, put an extra infielder in short right and pull the right fielder in three big steps from where he usually plays when Jeter comes to bat. I've seen a half dozen of their games and the only balls he's hit solidly have been the standard Jeter hit over the second baseman.
He looks like toast out there. Numbers after 107 PA's:
23 hits for the season with 3 doubles as his only XBH;
18.7 K% (4% higher than his career average and highest of his career since he became an everyday player);
.031 ISO (down over .100 from his career average)
Basically he's a .240 singles hitter that's damn lucky to be hitting .240 right now. He should probably be Mendoza line with his skill set.
I'm sure he'll go on a BABIP tear and ignite the Post/Daily News backpages at some point. But I don't see the light switch flicking "on" to vintage Jeter offense.
23 hits for the season with 3 doubles as his only XBH;
18.7 K% (4% higher than his career average and highest of his career since he became an everyday player);
.031 ISO (down over .100 from his career average)
Basically he's a .240 singles hitter that's damn lucky to be hitting .240 right now. He should probably be Mendoza line with his skill set.
I'm sure he'll go on a BABIP tear and ignite the Post/Daily News backpages at some point. But I don't see the light switch flicking "on" to vintage Jeter offense.
jon abbey said:
Yeah, but my buddy likes to point out that since he's missed a few games his "on pace" numbers are misleading and unfair. I question his analysis.
- Status