Derek Jeter: Countdown to Retirement
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soxhop411 said:
Charmin certainly knows a lot about #2.
Jeter wins it with a very fitting base hit to RF Well done!
Hate him all you want, but as a fan of the game, he's one of the greatest players I'll ever have a chance to watch in my lifetime. I'm happy to see it end the way it did tonight.
Who is better than Jeter, career-wise, that's retired in the last decade or so that didn't finish their career tainted by scandal, PED's, or battle injury and leave the game without a chance for the year long retirement ceremony that he's getting? Only guy I can really think of is Rivera, and the accolades and stories about him were no different, IMO, than what Jeter will receive. Bottom line, since guys like Ripken, Puckett, etc. left the game, there really hasn't exactly been a string of first ballot HOF'ers retiring in recent memory that didn't leave under their own terms like he is.
If you don't want to hear the shit the media is spoon feeding, turn it off. I haven't read a single story about Jeter this year, haven't seen 10 seconds of him on my television that wasn't a highlight from the game that day and it really hasn't been that hard to avoid. I tuned in for a few minutes tonight, saw hit the game winner, and turned it off. Easy as can be. For all I know, he could be getting a blow job on the mound from McCarver and I wouldn't be the wiser. Remember the game and the players the way you want to remember them and tune out the rest of the shit. To me, Jeter was a guy who led his team to a whole bunch of championships, teammates and fans adored him, and he wasn't blanketed by a scandal that took down most of his peers, or any other scandal, for that matter. He was a fucking Yankee and that sucked, but if he played here, no amount of praise or love from the media or anyone else would be enough for the folks who post on this board, and that's the truth.
If you don't want to hear the shit the media is spoon feeding, turn it off. I haven't read a single story about Jeter this year, haven't seen 10 seconds of him on my television that wasn't a highlight from the game that day and it really hasn't been that hard to avoid. I tuned in for a few minutes tonight, saw hit the game winner, and turned it off. Easy as can be. For all I know, he could be getting a blow job on the mound from McCarver and I wouldn't be the wiser. Remember the game and the players the way you want to remember them and tune out the rest of the shit. To me, Jeter was a guy who led his team to a whole bunch of championships, teammates and fans adored him, and he wasn't blanketed by a scandal that took down most of his peers, or any other scandal, for that matter. He was a fucking Yankee and that sucked, but if he played here, no amount of praise or love from the media or anyone else would be enough for the folks who post on this board, and that's the truth.
Derek made his debut when I lived in New Jersey. I remember watching him at Fenway when I lived in Boston. Now it's time for him to go away.
Deathofthebambino said:
This year's HoF inductees included Frank Thomas, Greg Maddux, and Tom Glavine.
I dunno. I respect Jeter and he's had a great career, but I think most of the folks on this board don't hold a lot of the news media in high regard no matter who they're covering.Deathofthebambino said:
glasspusher said:
I suspect that if Jeter were a Red Sox player, most around here would have a similar attitude toward him to what Jon Abbey does: tired of the overrating and media attention and ready for him to be gone, yet appreciating what he did for the team.
1. PedroDeathofthebambino said:
2. Rivera's accolades were accurate - he really was the best closer in history. Just as Pedro's legacy as one of the best, if not the best, pitchers of all time is an argument worth having.
I more or less agree with everything you wrote. Over all, last night was pretty cool. But you lost me with the last line. The reality is, the praise and love Jeter has received during his farewell tour wouldn't have happened had he played for any other team. The last player I remember (aside from Mariano) to get even close to this sort of farewell tour was Ripken (who was, btw, a better player), and it did not reach this level of sanctimony. If you live in NY, you can not avoid the "Jeter wuz the greatestist" parade, or have a rational conversation about just how good he was without having phrases like "intangibles" and "he did things the right way". Do those things change how great he was? No. But they can annoy someone who doesn't buy in, or wants to have a rational conversation with a coworker.Deathofthebambino said:
I think we were lucky to watch Jeter play, but I'm ready for the end already.
Deathofthebambino said:
This is nonsense. The media is not the reason I'm sick of hearing about this. It's the orgy of commercialism being orchestrated by Jeter's sposors and the Yankees themselves.
As a Sox fan, I thought Mo's year long retirement tour was a bit much, but at least it was a baseball-centric celebration and it felt authentic. By contrast, the year of Jetertm has felt like an inauthentic marketing campaign driven by the need to force-feed the notion that the retirement of Jeter the Icontm is so monumental that we'll never see anything like it again. And to ensure that you can capture a bit of it for yourself, let me direct you to Steiner Sports where you can purchase one of Jeter's game-worn socks - not a pair, but one - for only $409.
http://www.steinersports.com/derek-jeter-game-used-sock.html?gclid=CJKW6Lbj_sACFQQQ7AodFzcAtg&gclsrc=aw.ds
Let me sum it up this way. Do I have respect for Jeter the player? Hell yes. Do I have a strong negative emotional reaction to the idea that Jeter's sponsors have actually branded the very word "re2pect" to refer to Jeter? Hell yes again.
Anyone who believes that we wouldn't crucify the Sox for this sort of crass commercialism doesn't read this site very thoroughly.
They were apparently digging up the dirt he played on at SS after the game last night. Presumably to sell to stupid MFY fans. For the love of God let the ball washing end already.
So, I have to say that I watched some of Jeter's post-game press conference and it was the most human and non pre-programmed that I've ever seen him. The guy was in a daze, clearly with all kinds of conflicting emotions swirling around. He couldn't follow the (mostly stupid) questions at all and just seemed like he had no idea what was going on. Pretty refreshing, actually.
So, it's bad down here in "Fancy CT". The biddies at my sons daycare were all abuzz over the walk off. One claimed to have watched the entire game over again. This kind of reaction from otherwise disinterested fans hasn't been seen since 2009.
I love that the media ballwashing gives him credit for "knocking in" the go ahead run with a grounder that should have been a routine out but instead was thrown into right field for an error.
Will the dirt between SS and 3B be discounted because he rarely touched it?Soxfan in Fla said:
Deathofthebambino said:
Why is this a necessary qualifier? The entire reason why people are tired of this dog and pony show is because he's hung around one year too long, apparently solely so he can have his one-year retirement party. Sure he's "earned it", but it's not something that goes in the plus column of his career. "Leaving on his own terms (i.e. when I say so because I'm Derek Jeter)" is not the same as "leaving on top", but Jeter, the Yankees, and the media are asking everyone in the world to conflate the two.
Speaking personally, if Mike Schmidt, George Brett, Craig Biggio, Greg Maddux, Wade Boggs, Pedro Martinez, Tom Glavine, Cal Ripken, Paul Molitor, Robin Yount, Kirby Puckett, Carl Yastrzemski, and Ricky Henderson (to name a handful) all opted to have a one year party for themselves, it would have been equally as "earned" as Jeter's or Mo's decision.
Dewy4PrezII said:
I'm confused. Wasn't it a pretty well hit ball to Markakis? I didn't watch the game but I saw the highlight of the last play.
jodyreeddudley78 said:
Jeter is pretty much Barry Larkin with about 550 more games played.
Larkin: 2180 G, 295/371/444. 116 OPS+
Jeter: 2745 G, 309/377/440. 115 OPS+.
Obviously Jeter played more so his career was a little better, but you couldn't find two more identical players if you tried. And Larkin's defense was vastly superior than Jeter's.
Larkin was an excellent player, one of the best I've ever seen, but no one and I mean NO ONE would ever try to make a case that Larkin should be a unanimous HoF inductee. And he wasn't. It took 3 years for him to get elected, finally tallying 86.4% of the vote. Yet these assholes are going to try to convince me that Jeter (who is a HoFer and everyone knows it so that's not even in question) should go in 1st ballot unanimously? Please.
Deathofthebambino said:
No he isn't. He wouldn't make a 25 man roster of the players you got to see in your lifetime. That is the issue with Jeter. He might possibly be the most overrated player in baseball history.
He had a great career but Derek Jeter is not one of the All Time Greats. He is someone who lasted 20 years (which is a accomplishment) and was fortunate enough to be on 5 championship teams. He was never at any point the best player in his position in baseball and had a me first attitude that hurt his team in later years. He should not have been playing SS after 2003.
The Derek Jeter going to the HoF is some sort of man myth the media convinced themselves into. He isn't real and certainly wasn't the man playing Shortstop for the Yankees over the last 20 years. Hell he singlehandedly made the Golden Glove a joke by receiving 5 times when he wasn't even the best SS in the Yankee starting line up or even close to league average defensively.
I would never call Derek Jeter a fraud though. He never presented himself as anything more than a person who loved his job and loved the hoards of single women around him. He was a good player who had a great career and deserves to get into the HoF eventually.
The frauds are the people that continue telling this myth that was Jeter was something fabulous. The man is probably less of a baseball player than Schilling let alone putting him with the Pedro, Williams, Mantle, Ruth, Gehrig level of players.
Jeter is no Cal Ripken. He doesn't even come close.
Derek Jeter, although he's not the greatest shortstop ever!!!, he is at least in the conversation.
For players that played the majority of their games at shortstop, at the beginning of the year he was: 3rd all time in fWAR (Honus Wagner and Cal Ripken ahead of him), and 7th all time in bWAR.
There's no denying, this is a great, 1st ballot HOF, star. When evaluating him, you should at least keep it contained to other shortstops no? No matter what you think of his defense. So he's basically a once a generation talent (for example, Cal Ripken and Ozzie Smith being the previous generation greats).
EDIT: 1999 - Ignoring pitchers, he was 3rd in fWAR at 7.4. Only Manny (7.5) and Bagwell (7.8) were ahead of him. I haven't looked at other years, but that probably qualifies for the best of his position.
For players that played the majority of their games at shortstop, at the beginning of the year he was: 3rd all time in fWAR (Honus Wagner and Cal Ripken ahead of him), and 7th all time in bWAR.
There's no denying, this is a great, 1st ballot HOF, star. When evaluating him, you should at least keep it contained to other shortstops no? No matter what you think of his defense. So he's basically a once a generation talent (for example, Cal Ripken and Ozzie Smith being the previous generation greats).
EDIT: 1999 - Ignoring pitchers, he was 3rd in fWAR at 7.4. Only Manny (7.5) and Bagwell (7.8) were ahead of him. I haven't looked at other years, but that probably qualifies for the best of his position.
Tom, you had me until the Ripken bit. Ripken was great up until 30, and then he put up 5791 plate appearances with a 97 OPS+ during a pretty extreme offensive era. He was pretty much toast by 36, but stuck around to break 3000 hits, etc.
Larkin, for comparison, had a 116 OPS+ post 30. I wonder what type of career line Ripken would have had if he didn't selfishly insist on playing every game (career-wise August and September were markedly his worst months performance-wise).
Jeter's line is pretty remarkable for a strong defensive shortstop, but the issue was he was pretty dreadful at it. It will be interesting to see the advances there are in quantifying defense as a component of WAR, because the early returns leave him largely indistinguishable from Alan Trammell (and tangent alert, but why is he not in with Lou Whitaker?).
Larkin, for comparison, had a 116 OPS+ post 30. I wonder what type of career line Ripken would have had if he didn't selfishly insist on playing every game (career-wise August and September were markedly his worst months performance-wise).
Jeter's line is pretty remarkable for a strong defensive shortstop, but the issue was he was pretty dreadful at it. It will be interesting to see the advances there are in quantifying defense as a component of WAR, because the early returns leave him largely indistinguishable from Alan Trammell (and tangent alert, but why is he not in with Lou Whitaker?).
It's nice that he had a storybook finish to the last game he'll ever play at the Toilet after his season of subpar play assured that yesterday would be the last game he'd ever play at the Toilet.
So bravo, Derek...and now go fuck off!
So bravo, Derek...and now go fuck off!
mt8thsw9th said:
Why does the offensive era matter when you're citing OPS+? Yeah he wasn't great relative to what other hitters were doing but overall he was a really, really good player for a long time.
NYCSox said:
Exactly. Ignoring position, Jeter was a very, very good hitter in the grand scheme of things. He's only considered great because he played SS. If he played another position, like he should have for most of his career, there is no debate about whether he's among the all time greats. For a 3B or LF he wouldn't be great.
He's still very good and is a lock for the HOF. His hit total is extremely impressive. But defense counts, and he was terrible at SS.
mt8thsw9th said:
Jeter is not even close to Ripken. Ripken was a plus defender at SS while Jeter has always been below average. When Riopken got to Jeter's peak defensive level (aka when Ripken became just average) he moved off of SS to 3B where he had an excellent year followed some average years at 3B.
As for hitting, Ripken's best five years OPS+ were 164, 144, 142, 124, 122 Jeter was 153, 132, 128, 127, 125. Ripken has much higher peak. Jeter had a better career ops+ 115 to 112.
In the end Ripken's peak was better and he was much better defensively. Jeter had a slightly better career and was a better base runner but that does not even close to the difference defensively.
OPS+ is also not adjusted for position. Cal was a plus defensively at shortstop until the last couple years, and a definite plus offensively at the position, even if roughly average among all positions by OPS+.glennhoffmania said:
From 1982-95 Ripken was always average or better at short by TZR (not perfect, but the best we have), and usually 10-20 runs better. In 1996 he was about average at age 35. The next year he moved to third base so the superior Mike Bordick could play short.
Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
Surely there must be a couple of angry HOF voters out there whose wives Jeter slept with.
Guys, guys! Don't you know? Rickey Henderson sucks! SUCKS! You know why? Even though he was a great outfielder, he wasn't Babe Ruth. Mickey Mantle? Dogshit. Ted Williams? Garbage.
In conclusion, if you aren't the #1 person at your position, and only top 5, ever. You should get no accolades!
In conclusion, if you aren't the #1 person at your position, and only top 5, ever. You should get no accolades!
glennhoffmania said:
I think it was SJH who compared Larkin to Jeter just on offense and noted their similar numbers (other than of course the extra five seasons for Jeter). But of course once you add defense to the mix then Larkin becomes the superior player.
Note that none of this diminishes Jeter as a HOF player, but in the grand scheme of things he's JAG (HOF version of course).
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