Derrick White, On-Off wizard
- Thread starter benhogan
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PP's recent shooting steak is bumping his value, so not completely out of line if you attach requisite draft compensationThat's gonna be nuts once we add Caruso to the mix.
BUT I'm getting a little queasy with the thought of giving up PP's shooting (still would do Caruso in a heartbeat)
Would you swap PP + filler for Thybulle?
Can't help but notice Nickeil Alexander-Walker on that Guard's Block list. Comes off the bench in limited minutes.
Wolves throw a plethora of good defenders at teams with NAW, Ant-Man, Gobert, McDaniels, Kyle Anderson along with KAT, Reid, Conley.
What they lack in playoff experience they make up for with size & physical D (which will play well in a halfcourt game)
I haven't kept up on Thybulle, but something has always seemed off about him as a player, where he's less than the sum of his parts.
I'd do PP+picks for Caruso, but not PP+filler for Matisse.
It's a moot point, because Portland probably doesn't want more guards.
Agreed, both PDX and Chicago have plenty of smallish scoring guards. The local kid-scoring bonanza may give Portland fans something to cheer for but they also need Thybulle's defense.
The 5-wide/Mazzulla-ball offense needs Hauser/PPs shooting off the bench, plus PP's defense doesn't get as exposed playing against 2nd units. Offensively, Peyton is a poor-mans Derrick White pushing PACE, adding ball security & non-ball dominant scoring. Come playoff time, maybe PP can play those 10 minutes DW won't play
Having 5 shooters on the floor at once does open things up for Jaylen (& Tatum also). So Brad may be reticent to trade any of his shooting
I would argue Anunoby plays as the Jaylen Brown-esque 2/3 swingman guard in that lineup, in 128's defense, and Barnes more of a full wing, but reasonable people can disagree. Including Bk-Ref, apparently.
Joe has been comfortable playing Banton and Brissett. I'm sure he'd love the upgrade over those guys that Caruso represents, and Caruso would never gum up the offense, even if he doesn't have PP's shooting.
And the defense.....oh dear. No one would generate good shots against the Celtics ever again, against any lineups.
His game goes way beyond this, but it's crazy what he did with his 3-point shot after the 2022 Finals.
Dude shot 31% in 21-22, and 34% the year prior. The past two seasons, he has 561 attempts at over 39%.
And it's not just loading up and only taking wide-open ones: he's getting off 7.2 attempts/36 this year, and his release seems quicker too.
Dude shot 31% in 21-22, and 34% the year prior. The past two seasons, he has 561 attempts at over 39%.
And it's not just loading up and only taking wide-open ones: he's getting off 7.2 attempts/36 this year, and his release seems quicker too.
I'd been wondering if he was cribbing his form from Hauser / Pritchard because they have certain similarities among them, but that might be me seeing what I want to see.
One article mentioned lots of time spent with Ben Sullivan as a shooting coach with the Celtics, but he's doing that this year with Sullivan in Houston...
I could see a resemblance to Hauser for sure. The soft release and high arc are similar. He's certainly more aggressive with it in transition situations than in the past.
higher arc 3pt shooters on the Celtics: Hauser, White, Holiday, PP
lower arc 3pt shooters on the Celtics: Brown, KP
Tatum seems to vary his arc, when he is going well there is more arc
Steph Curry almost hits the rafters with his 3s
All Star is seeming less and less far fetched for DW.
Going to be tough with the counting stats and his competition in the East.
If the Celtics put some distance between themselves and Mil/Phi + enough voters are into the advanced stats…. Maybe.
Would he have to make it as the 5th Celtic though? I guess 4th over Jrue?
Going to be tough with the counting stats and his competition in the East.
If the Celtics put some distance between themselves and Mil/Phi + enough voters are into the advanced stats…. Maybe.
Would he have to make it as the 5th Celtic though? I guess 4th over Jrue?
Yeah, I don't think Jrue is making it. JB and KP will be close--is KP the best center in the East after Embiid?
I still think it is going to be very, very difficult to squeeze White onto the all-star roster. Too many good guards.
Starters - Embiid, Giannis, Tatum, Haliburton, Brunson
Front court reserves - Bam, Barnes
Back court reserves - Maxey, Mitchell
Wildcards - Dame, Trae, Butler, Bridges, White, Porzingis, Banchero, Jaylen, etc
The other starting guard spot could be any of Brunson, Maxey, Dame, or Mitchell, IMO. Can't see them going with two wildcard guards
Starters - Embiid, Giannis, Tatum, Haliburton, Brunson
Front court reserves - Bam, Barnes
Back court reserves - Maxey, Mitchell
Wildcards - Dame, Trae, Butler, Bridges, White, Porzingis, Banchero, Jaylen, etc
The other starting guard spot could be any of Brunson, Maxey, Dame, or Mitchell, IMO. Can't see them going with two wildcard guards
Yeah the "Derrick White for All-star" campaign falls apart when you see the names he's competing with. High scoring efficient guards on playoff teams (Haliburton, Brunson, Maxey, Mitchell, Dame all feel like locks) are always going to beat out ultra efficient role players, even all-defense level role players like White. I'm ignoring a bunch of guys who are eliminated either because their team isn't good enough or they're injured: Lavine, Young, Ball, Cade. White is 19th among EC guards in points, 17th in assists and 23rd in rebounds. Even someone like Herro (averaging an efficient 24/5/4 and leading a solid Miami team in scoring) could make it over White, even if he's an inferior player.
I see Tatum/Brown, and the rest of the team gets some vacation time.
He is good. Really good. But KP scores fewer points and grabs fewer rebounds than both Bam and Barnes. And those numbers matter for all-star selections
KP has a shot (more so than White), but there will be at most 2 centers on the roster, and I do think Bam gets the nod over KP. I hadn't realized just how thin the center group is in the east, but if it's between those two guys, I do think Bam gets it. He averages more points, more rebounds, and is a better defender than KP. Simple as that.
Even if you focus primarily on stats (for ease of comparison I’ll just use LEBRON), Lillard, Halliburton, and Maxey rate better than White and Mitchell, Brunson, and Trae are all close. I’m guessing Mitchell is pretty close to a lock based on pedigree/reputation so if there’s going to be 5 guards then White is competing in at best an even race with Brunson and Trae with a bunch of other less likely options sitting behind him (including Jrue). It doesn’t seem likely, which obviously isn’t a bad thing for the Celtics.
Let's also remember, the NBA all star game is about dunks and 3's and flash and glitz. Derrick White is a fucking awesome basketball player, but is he more fun than watching Dame pull up from halfcourt or watching Donovan Mitchell do a windmill dunk to a national audience?
I’m afraid to even do the math of you include reasonable salaries for Jrue/White and a Tatum extension over the next few years.
Great problem for us as fans to have, but white is playing himself into a level that is going to be tough for Wyc and company.
If the Celtics don’t win, it feels like Jaylen is gone. Even if they do win, is he still gone? It’s becoming almost impossible to keep everyone. Who will they choose?
I suspect a White extension will prove easier to find middle ground on than a Jrue extension. White seems to understand the importance of coaching context and teammate context in being able to be the best version of himself, and how Brad and his coaching successors have helped him, as well as how he looks when it's Tatum and Brown he's passing to as opposed to Tweedledee and Tweedledum in San Antonio. He can get paid fairly, compete for championships, and look awesome playing here for years, on a team that could end up being compared to the GSW dynasty... or he can take slightly more money to roll the dice somewhere else. I think he'll see sense there.
Jrue, meanwhile, has a player option for next year only, has been traded 4 times in his career, doesn't live here, and being in line for probably his last big payday at age 34 or 35, probably has a more mercenary outlook (which is totally fair). Remember, he's actually the highest salary on the team this year (will be 2nd next year if he exercises the option). If he wants every dime he can get, he's not going to find it here, and seems likelier to prioritize that than White is, imo.
On the flip side, Jrue has made over 220M in his career so far. White has made less than 60M.
If I was White, I would be WAY more concerned about getting top dollar than I would if I was Jrue.
White is 4yrs younger. Plus he's a late bloomer, so much so that he has improved over the last two seasons.
He should get paid more, but you never know.
Hopefully, it's all moot, and Wyc just whips out the checkbook.
note: Celtic ownership group has unrealized billions on this asset with a very small initial investment.
I agree generally, just pushing back on the idea that Jrue will prioritize $ over White.
Who knows what makes each guy tick, but in general White should 100% be the guy to go for every last dollar and I wouldn’t blame him at all.
Jrue is more likely to take a slightly lower AAV in exchange for max years at his age. The "White at a discount" ship has sailed if I had to guess.
Definitely. Jrue likely will be OK with some stability on a good team.
White is going to maximize his pay day, as he should.
Is there not a limit that the C’s can offer White on an extension relative to his current salary?
I'd guess he'd do a 3+1 extension at ~ $120MM, believe that is a 25% bump (similar to the Dejounte Murray extension)
https://www.nba.com/news/dejounte-murray-hawks-extension
I realize people will speculate that he should play it out, but players not named DeMarcus Cousin rarely turn down large guarantees.
Cult Status
The Cult of DWhite,” of which I am a member, aims to convince the rest of the world that White has achieved a higher state of basketball consciousness. He has ascended past the media narratives that we NBA fans are bound by, and attained basketball enlightenment.
https://www.celticsblog.com/2023/12/31/24019984/the-mythical-greatness-of-derrick-white-boston-celtics
The Cult of DWhite,” of which I am a member, aims to convince the rest of the world that White has achieved a higher state of basketball consciousness. He has ascended past the media narratives that we NBA fans are bound by, and attained basketball enlightenment.
https://www.celticsblog.com/2023/12/31/24019984/the-mythical-greatness-of-derrick-white-boston-celtics
Exactly. Just sign the gtd contract.
If your White & immediately exceed $30MM/yr have your agent work over NIKE, Adidas, UA, New Balance, etc
The real money is in the shoes
White’s 140% raise level lines up reasonably well with his on court value, which might make it easier to get an extension done. White might be leaving some money on the table, but he’s also not established enough that a bad year doesn’t carry a ton of downside risk for him and his realistic upside in FA is probably more like 4/150 than 4/200, which means gambling on his health probably isn’t worth it for him.
Jrue is a bigger wildcard since it’s hard to know what he’ll take to keep and because I think if you’re Stevens and need to choose one of Jrue or White and their respective ages/career trajectories, you choose White. We obviously don’t know if ownership is willing to pay to put 3 $30 million+ players around their 2 supermaxes.
Jrue is a bigger wildcard since it’s hard to know what he’ll take to keep and because I think if you’re Stevens and need to choose one of Jrue or White and their respective ages/career trajectories, you choose White. We obviously don’t know if ownership is willing to pay to put 3 $30 million+ players around their 2 supermaxes.
Turning down $120 million of generational money to possibly get $150 million, but if you get some kind of injury before free agency where you could end up like IT, is risky. Also, would White rather play in his prime on the big stage with possibly an all time great team, or play on a middling (or worse) team?
If ownership isn’t willing to pay whatever it takes to keep their best five or six players, they should just cash out on their investment now. I believe they are going to spend whatever they need to spend, especially if this team goes on a Golden State type championship run.
If ownership isn’t willing to pay whatever it takes to keep their best five or six players, they should just cash out on their investment now. I believe they are going to spend whatever they need to spend, especially if this team goes on a Golden State type championship run.
Doing so would put the Warriors' record tax bills to shame. That said, the Cs haven't really hit Wyc's wallet to the same extent, and he's publicly said multiple times that he's willing to spend for banner equity (including when he stopped by the broadcast, not with the actor but the time a few weeks before that, to hang with Gorman). That would definitely be the full test of his assertion.
Here's Golden State's tax bills by year, per Spotrac, in $M:
2017-18: $34.5
2018-19: $51.5
2019-20: $0 (did a reset)
2020-21: $117.1
2021-22: $170.3
2022-23: $163.7
2023-24: $188.4 projected
The only other teams to ever have exceeded $100M in tax bill are LAC 22-23 ($140) and projected 23-24 ($142), BKN 21-22 ($102)...and that's it, although the 2013-14 Nets also came close ($91).
Boston is currently projected to a $39M tax bill this year. We paid $70M last year, and $3.9M back in 2018-19, and before that $1.9M in 2012-13 and $9.7M in 2011-12, back in the waning days of the PP/KG era. So we've been a net luxury-tax recipient, most of the time. But we could easily blow past a $200M tax bill in the next few years, if we pay our Top 6 what they're worth to stick together. Sounds absolutely insane, and also, kinda worth it. It's been worth it for GS, at any rate.
The Warriors’ franchise value is up around $5 billion since the 2017-2018 season. GS is a revenue machine, generating $200 million in net income. Boston doesn’t have the same ability to grow their income anywhere near as well as the Warriors have, so ownership will have to face some challenges that the Warriors’ ownership didn’t have to face.
Well, not with that attitude.
Boston's a bigger metro area than SF, is just about as wealthy, the team has a deeper history, etc. If we win a couple of titles with this core, and Tatum being a serious MVP contender most years, I don't see why the economics can't work just as well for us.
The Celtics have already penetrated the metro and regional area extensively. Plus they have a big national and international fanbase. The Warriors started out with NBA fans in the (other) bay area who didn’t hate Rick Barry. Which is a much smaller base to start from.
The warriors generated 765 million in revenue last season, the celtics generated 443 million
The ownership group can always pull a Cuban. Add a deep-pocket partner, realize billions in capital gains, and retain operational control.
There is zero reason not to retain on-court talent when the demand for NBA franchises is off the charts.
The playbook has been put out there if you care to look at who Cuban added
Yes. What's the structural reason the Celtics couldn't get there, though, with a few championships? What do the Warriors have that Boston couldn't have?
You want to tell me Tatum couldn't possibly ever be a game changing star the way Steph has been, ok fine, but he can come pretty close.
It's not attitude....it's the massive revenue stream they have with their new arena that Boston does not have. Nobody has it. Not even NY or LA.