#DFG: Canceling the Noise

Is there any level of suspension that you would advise Tom to accept?


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Myt1

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ipol said:
Here's the nutshell:
 
"Law firmly establishes that parties to CBA choose own method of dispute resolution & fed courts are bound to respect their bargain"
 
Maniacal laughter ensues...
Honestly, that's basically THE bedrock principle of federal labor arbitration. The language about the sanctity of the NLRA gets pretty purple in a lot of the decisions. I'm paraphrasing, but one of the most important cases about this stuff basically says something like, "The NLRA allows labor and management to set the terms of their relationship according to their own wishes and thereby avoid industrial strife."
 

drbretto

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ipol said:
I think Roger Goodell should be fired. I think he should be placed in a stockade for several hours while aggrieved parties throw rotten tomatoes at him. I, personally, would wait at least 45 minutes for the opportunity to do so. Roger Goodell will not be fired.
Oh, I totally agree now. I misread something somewhere and thought the CBA was after the 2017 season. That's the only reason I thought there was a shot.
 

Leather

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Usually in contractual terms involving the exercise of discretion or the exercise of contingent rights, the word "reasonable" gets tossed in to (theoretically) prevent this sort of shit.
 

Myt1

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Totally. Notice provisions and timing and all that.

Labor arbitration is pretty close to unique, though. So much so that the doctrines limiting even the District Court's power invoke "preemption" rather than deference.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Monbo Jumbo said:
They have doubled down on a wisp of air so often it weighs a world on their backs, Atlas-like.
 
The sad thing is that no matter how obvious this becomes to any person with half a brain, no matter how incompetent, vindictive, and petty Goodell ends up looking in the whole affair, no matter how roughly Berman tears him a new asshole in any ruling...we're not getting those 1st and 4th round picks back.
 

ipol

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Myt1 said:
Labor arbitration is pretty close to unique, though. So much so that the doctrines limiting even the District Court's power invoke "preemption" rather than deference.
As a lawyer I make a good carpenter but - if I followed correctly - that's not good...
 

ifmanis5

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Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
 
The sad thing is that no matter how obvious this becomes to any person with half a brain, no matter how incompetent, vindictive, and petty Goodell ends up looking in the whole affair, no matter how roughly Berman tears him a new asshole in any ruling...we're not getting those 1st and 4th round picks back.
So true. Not only that but the common public view will always be Cheatriots, no matter how this plays out in court. The damage has been done and a lot of it isn't getting undone.
 

ipol

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BigSoxFan said:
:(

Nothing pisses me off more than the little wrinkle they put into the punishment that we have to forfeit the better of our first round picks if we landed another one. That was such a subtle "F U" from the NFL so early on before we truly knew how corrupt they really are.
Yep. "Hold on, let's make sure they can't even make a trade to get out of this screw job!" It started as a parity issue.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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ifmanis5 said:
So true. Not only that but the common public view will always be Cheatriots, no matter how this plays out in court. The damage has been done and a lot of it isn't getting undone.
And it's on the record the next time one of this league's many loser coaches accuses the Pats of something fishy. Two first rounders for playing around with the injury report? Sure, why the fuck not?
 

pappymojo

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I like to envision the lost draft picks as a beating heart under the NFLs floorboards. As much as the NFL will want it to, this story isnt going to go away for them, and the longer it goes the more some people will pick up on what happpened with the Patriots. The story will be about the NFL spreading false reports, being dishonest, being incompetent, manipulating science and just flat out being assholes and it is all everyone will talk about leading up to the draft.
 

ipol

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pappymojo said:
I like to envision the lost draft picks as a beating heart under the NFLs floorboards. As much as the NFL will want it to, this story isnt going to go away for them, and the longer it goes the more some people will pick up on what happpened with the Patriots. The story will be about the NFL spreading false reports, being dishonest, being incompetent, manipulating science and just flat out being assholes and it is all everyone will talk about leading up to the draft.
I'll go ahead and bring up a point I made five billion posts ago. It is now incumbent on us to recognize this bullshit the next time. Hashtag we're all Vilma. Maybe Saints fans weren't as diligent? Maybe we Patriots fans are too much so? Hashtag maybe Jonathan Martin deserved some shit.
 

Harry Hooper

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pappymojo said:
I like to envision the lost draft picks as a beating heart under the NFLs floorboards. As much as the NFL will want it to, this story isnt going to go away for them, and the longer it goes the more some people will pick up on what happpened with the Patriots. The story will be about the NFL spreading false reports, being dishonest, being incompetent, manipulating science and just flat out being assholes and it is all everyone will talk about leading up to the draft.
 
 
The draft coverage on ESPN and the NFL Network will not be talking about the Pats' lost picks.
 

Myt1

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ipol said:
As a lawyer I make a good carpenter but - if I followed correctly - that's not good...
Yeah. It's not absolute, but they're really pretty serious about this stuff. Which is why the NFL is arguing about the limited review the District Court is supposed to apply more than the merits of Goodell's decision. Because the decision is so completely laughable and the standard of review is so favorable.
 

nighthob

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You want to know something? I've always had a lot of sniping with the Dolphins fans of my acquaintance, but since this whole thing started they've been the one group that have commiserated with me. And the Miami bloggers I know all contend that Martin got run of the mill hazing, and couldn't deal with the unfairness of it all. Ted Wells may be the only person Dolphins' fans hate more than Bill Belichick.
 

ifmanis5

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Jed Zeppelin said:
And it's on the record the next time one of this league's many loser coaches accuses the Pats of something fishy. Two first rounders for playing around with the injury report? Sure, why the fuck not?
Yup. They've already used repeat offender as basis for punishment.
 

djbayko

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pappymojo said:
I like to envision the lost draft picks as a beating heart under the NFLs floorboards. As much as the NFL will want it to, this story isnt going to go away for them, and the longer it goes the more some people will pick up on what happpened with the Patriots. The story will be about the NFL spreading false reports, being dishonest, being incompetent, manipulating science and just flat out being assholes and it is all everyone will talk about leading up to the draft.
And we have almost a year before this punishment actually materializes. Who knows what can happen before then...

* A scathing rebuke of the NFL by Judge Berman that changes public perception and a well-timed press conference by Kraft demanding justice?
* A disgruntled former employee leaking a rough draft of the Wells Report with Goodell's edits all over it and the Ray Rice tape to TMZ?
* Half time measurements of ball pressure during Dec / Jan games in New England and Green Bay leaks to the press?
* Another NFL scandal which brings all of Goodell's past transgressions back into the limelight?

I know...just allow me to dream, okay?
 

crystalline

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Joe Sixpack said:
 
Goodell is making in excess of $40 million per year and his contract runs through March 2019. That's a lot of money to eat to get rid of him. It just seems really unlikely unless his actions start to dramatically impact the NFL's bottom line, which they haven't.
Most of Goodell's compensation is bonus/incentive pay. In 2012, only $3.5M was salary. So if the contract is structured as we think, it will be much cheaper to fire him than $40M/year.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/02/15/sports/football/goodell-nfl-commissioner-earned-44-2-million-in-2012.html

In the same piece it says Jeff Pash earned just under $8M in 2012.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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djbayko said:
And we have almost a year before this punishment actually materializes. Who knows what can happen before then...

* A scathing rebuke of the NFL by Judge Berman that changes public perception and a well-timed press conference by Kraft demanding justice?
* A disgruntled former employee leaking a rough draft of the Wells Report with Goodell's edits all over it and the Ray Rice tape to TMZ?
* Half time measurements of ball pressure during Dec / Jan games in New England and Green Bay leaks to the press?
* Another NFL scandal which brings all of Goodell's past transgressions back into the limelight?

I know...just allow me to dream, okay?
You guys are fucking nuts.

People are pissed at the NFL because of manipulation of facts surrounding Brady. Most people think the Patriots may have/probably cheated, but there's no proof. Nobody will feel bad for the Patriots when their favorite team essentially gets to pick one slot higher in the second round.

There is enough media hype at the draft without deflategate. With all the other shit to talk about, deflategate will fade amongst all the other noise.
 

tims4wins

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If his base salary is only $3.5M that'd be pretty easy to eat. Hell the league will save $3.5M a year by not hiring Ted Wells each year to run a sham investigation! A net wash. Problem solved.
 

Was (Not Wasdin)

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Koufax said:
Sure.   How can they turn a profit when they have to pay RG all that coin. 
 
Seriously, they have surrendered that status going forward.  http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/national-football-league-surrenders-tax-exempt-status/
It makes little to no practical difference for the league going forward, and they made it seem like they were giving something up. The big upside to them? They no longer have to file disclosure forms that include salary information for officers.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Our favorite small, burrowing, mouse-like rodent is at it again:
 
https://twitter.com/BenVolin/status/629978282763661312
 
https://twitter.com/BenVolin/status/629978771588784128
 
https://twitter.com/BenVolin/status/629979287542734848
 
But props to John Dowd!
 

Ralphwiggum

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Kenny F'ing Powers said:
You guys are fucking nuts.
People are pissed at the NFL because of manipulation of facts surrounding Brady. Most people think the Patriots may have/probably cheated, but there's no proof. Nobody will feel bad for the Patriots when their favorite team essentially gets to pick one slot higher in the second round.
There is enough media hype at the draft without deflategate. With all the other shit to talk about, deflategate will fade amongst all the other noise.
Yup. This thread is an extreme outlier in terms of how the run-of-mill NFL fan thinks about this. There is some reticent support for the Pats here and there. But most do not see this as some great miscarriage of justice.
 

AB in DC

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Yeah, mainstream opinion is basically both anti-NFL and anti-Patriots.  It will take a massive sea change for one to swamp the other.
 

johnmd20

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Ralphwiggum said:
Yup. This thread is an extreme outlier in terms of how the run-of-mill NFL fan thinks about this. There is some reticent support for the Pats here and there. But most do not see this as some great miscarriage of justice.
 
Just like people other than Saints fans barely got involved in the bountygate stuff. Your own team? You care very much. Some other team, especially the hated CHEATRIOTS? People don't care or still think the team did something wrong. There isn't anything that could happen, including a full Brady exoneration, that would alter that perception.
 

AB in DC

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Eddie Jurak said:
Our favorite small, burrowing, mouse-like rodent is at it again:
 
 
Volin doesn't realize the obvious answer -- Dowd is drumming up more business by pointing how much better his work is than Wells's?
 

bluefenderstrat

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Volin thinks Dowd's website "took a lot of effort" (it's a Square Space site, mind you) and implies there must be some financial incentive for him to do so much work. He's remarkably dense.
 

mwonow

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bluefenderstrat said:
Volin thinks Dowd's website "took a lot of effort" (it's a Square Space site, mind you) and implies there must be some financial incentive for him to do so much work. He's remarkably dense.
 
 
Dense indeed. Calling him "our favorite small, burrowing, mouse-like rodent" is an insult to rodents as a whole. 
 

Gorton Fisherman

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I'm sure that little weasel Volin is currently digging furiously around the interwebs trying find proof that Dowd once accepted money from the Kraft Foundation or something.

What's maddening about Volin's tweet is his apparent incredulity that a respectable, independent figure like Dowd could possibly think this whole thing is a baseless screw job against Brady and the Pats.
 

djbayko

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Kenny F'ing Powers said:
You guys are fucking nuts.

People are pissed at the NFL because of manipulation of facts surrounding Brady. Most people think the Patriots may have/probably cheated, but there's no proof. Nobody will feel bad for the Patriots when their favorite team essentially gets to pick one slot higher in the second round.

There is enough media hype at the draft without deflategate. With all the other shit to talk about, deflategate will fade amongst all the other noise.
What part of "dream" don't you understand?
 

amarshal2

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It's time to give Trollin the CHB treatment. Nobody should give him the benefit of posting anything he is associated with.
 

mwonow

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Gorton Fisherman said:
I'm sure that little weasel Volin is currently digging furiously around the interwebs trying find proof that Dowd once accepted money from the Kraft Foundation or something.

What's maddening about Volin's tweet is his apparent incredulity that a respectable, independent figure like Dowd could possibly think this whole thing is a baseless screw job against Brady and the Pats.
 
Maddening, yes, but not inexplicable. Volin has shown that he lacks the curiosity and intellectual depth required to gain even a basic understanding of this mess and its issues. For BV, the path of least resistance is to swallow whatever the NFL is dishing out, and then snap like a chihuahua at anything that messes with the NFL narrative.
 
amarshal2 said:
It's time to give Trollin the CHB treatment. Nobody should give him the benefit of posting anything he is associated with.
 
Agreed re: "Trollin" 
 

Van Everyman

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I've been on record defending Volin at times on this tho I agree that he's been pretty bad overall. Still he isn't CHB – he's just in uncharted waters on this with a national story, the pressure of being seen as a homer and the subject matter requiring him to rely on outside expertise. As a result he's worked too hard to play the "fair and balanced" card and relied on a coterie of nobodies (that guy from Suffolk) and morons (Munson).

Disappointing more than anything. I actually think he's better than this tho he's working hard at convincing me otherwise.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
The problem with Volin is that he's as dumb as a fence post. He might work hard enough, but he lacks the native intelligence required to cover this story with any type of competence.
Hey, SJH, stop sugarcoating it and tell us how you really feel about the man.
 

dcmissle

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Volin is trolling the same waters -- and will likely meet the same fate -- as that fool who thought he saw Bob Kraft money being steered to the American Enterprise Institute.

It's amusing when someone who has demonstrated no curiosity or critical judgment can suddenly find his inner Sherlock Holmes -- just to prove he is not another Boston toady.
 

Buster Olney the Lonely

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dcmissle said:
Volin is trolling the same waters -- and will likely meet the same fate -- as that fool who thought he saw Bob Kraft money being steered to the American Enterprise Institute.

It's amusing when someone who has demonstrated no curiosity or critical judgment can suddenly find his inner Sherlock Holmes -- just to prove he is not another Boston toady.
That was Volin too, wasn't it?
 

MarcSullivaFan

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dcmissle said:
Volin is trolling the same waters -- and will likely meet the same fate -- as that fool who thought he saw Bob Kraft money being steered tithe American Enterprise Institute.

It's amusing when someone who has demonstrated no curiosity or critical judgment can suddenly find his inner Sherlock Holmes -- just to prove he is not another Boston toady.
Wait, wasn't Volin the one who claimed that AEI received funding from the Kraft Foundation (the Mac N Cheese Kraft) and erroneously insinuated that there was a connection with Robert Kraft (not Mac N Cheese Kraft)?
 

Eddie Jurak

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I wonder what he will try next. Probably something involving Pete Rose, Donald Trump, and
that Henderson guy from the snowplow game.
 

dcmissle

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It requires stupendous ignorance to assume "Kraft" > AEI means "Bob Kraft". As in willful ignorance of American business and politics.
 

amarshal2

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Just a lie under oath by Exponent that has been bothering me for a while.
 
Dean Snyder (NFLPA statistical expert) makes several points regarding the use of the Colts' balls as a "control" group to test the difference between their level of inflation and the Patriots' balls.  Essentially the point is that the Colts' balls make for a terrible control group because, among other things, the balls were not tested at the same time, the balls may not have been equally wet, and the sample size of Colts balls is only 4.  All of this renders the Exponent analysis extremely suspect. 
 
Here's just one bit of that when he talks about the timing aspect.  As I said, there's a lot more.  It's the crux of his argument.
 
From the Snyder Direct:
Q. What did you conclude about Exponent's difference in differences work?
A. Well, it's wrong. It goes back to their basic theory, the basic idea that the Colts' balls a control. If you want -- and I understand the idea of using the Colts' balls as a control, but they have to be a good control. If they are a good control, then you can isolate on whether the question of whether the additional pressure drop exhibited by the Patriots' footballs is or is not likely to have occurred by chance. 
 
Q. And what was your conclusion as to whether 24 the Colts' balls served as good controls in their analysis?
A. They didn't, because I mentioned this earlier. There was a sequence of events at halftime. And the sequence of events at halftime was that the Patriots' balls were measured first. The Colts' balls were measured second, or even later, depending on the sequence of halftime events.
 
 
 
And what does Exponent have to say about this when asked by Kessler?  He says, "oh no, they weren't a control!  What are you talking about?"
 
 Q: Were the Colts' balls used as controls in any way with respect to the statistical significance analysis performed by Exponent?
 
A. Absolutely not. I don't know where that idea came from. We did not consider the Colts' balls as controls in other statistical analysis. We looked at them both equally. And looked at the variation in the data for both the Patriots and the Colts. There was no assumption about control or anything like that on the Colts' balls in our statistical analysis.
 
 
 
I don't know why Kessler doesn't hit him on this point.  It's a blatant lie that can also speak to bias. 
 
Now here's Ted Wells calling the Colts' balls a control in the Wells Report:
Exponent also conducted a series of experiments to evaluate the impact of environmental conditions on the air pressure of footballs.  Among other things, these experiments attempted to replicate the likely conditions and circumstances on game day and the results recorded by the game officials at halftime. In these experiments, the Colts footballs and the Colts halftime measurements were used as a “control” group because there was no plausible basis on which to believe there had been tampering with the Colts balls.
 
 
 
And where would Wells have gotten this from?  Let's turn to the Exponent section!
 
For the purpose of the experiments, Paul, Weiss informed Exponent that there was no plausible basis to believe that there had been tampering with the Colts footballs; therefore, the Colts footballs were used as a "control" group when evaluating and determining test parameters for the pertinent experiments. In other words, because we could reasonably assume that the Colts measurements collected at halftime on Game Day were the result only of natural causes, a combination of environmental and timing factors was identified (within the realistic ranges provided by Paul, Weiss) for the purpose of our experiments that resulted in measurements for the Colts balls that matched the Game Day measurements. Aligning our experiment in such a way confirmed that the test conditions were a good approximation of the environmental factors present on Game Day, and allowed us to concurrently assess what the Patriots measurements would be under the same conditions. We could then assess the physical plausibility of the Patriots measurements recorded on Game Day. 
 
1. They were used as a control group.
2. Exponent lied under oath.
3. Further evidence that they're just hired expert witnesses paid to reach a conclusion and support that conclusion in court.

There's no reason to believe anything else in his testimony or his findings.