Divisional Round Weekend
- Thread starter BigSoxFan
- Start date
The NFL also banned that Pats' eligible receiver scheme because Harbaugh was on the rules committee and whined about it.
Harbaugh is a fucking baby.
How do you even abuse a rule? It's a rule. If you run a play within that rule, no sympathy for someone who wasn't prepared for it, whining about it. Apparently the rule has been changed, but it was a perfectly legal, frankly pretty brilliant bit of research and application that day.
Not just any college team. ALABAMA. Against LSU. On national TV. It’s not like BB pulled it from some D3 tape.
This is ironic. What’s the point of the PSI rule? Oh right it’s because that’s what the Wilson box says is the ideal range.
I think this pairs nicely with @Marciano490's P&G thread about sports grudges. We're talking about our emotions being linked to what grown men do with a ball/puck so we're all irrational about why we root for/against teams. I choose to think Mahomes is whiney and have no desire to hear about Taylor Swift at all so I will root against them next week. Others will root against Baltimore because Ray Lewis was an "alleged" murdering prick who played for them a decade ago. Both opinions are valid and totally nuts at the same time.
I don't recall the specifics but they must've subbed because they would've had to take the tackle off the field that Vereen was "replacing." But Harbaugh wanted more time to figure out what was happening.
I believe they got the play from Alabama.
We had this discussion when the Lions fucked up their ineligible play. The Patriots didn't break the rules. The officials handled it correctly, the Ravens were not treated unfairly. BUT, the rule itself was inherently unfair. The ONLY REASON that players are allowed to change numerical eligibility is so the owners can save money on roster space. That's it. It's not meant to be used for deception, similar to how the substitution rules are not to be used for deception.
Similar to how the fumble rules were fixed after the Holy Roller, the NFL immediately fixed this rule once the loophole was blown wide open. Except, really, their fix didn't go far enough.
You realize you can pass the ball to the left, right?
And please with the Ryland shit. The guy made 65% of his kicks. Bass: 90% from the left, 77% from the right. Clear statistical evidence that you wanted the guy taking the most important kick of your season from the left hash.
Yes, Bill Belichick tanked it when he is trying to reach the wins record. It also led to him being fired.
I think it’s time for you to let go of this one and admit defeat.
The first down play call was pretty bad. Everybody expected a run, which hadn't been working for about a quarter, so they could bring the clock down to the 2:00. If you're going to run a give up play with low yardage expectation, you might as well go toward the left hash so that you're maximizing your FG chances if you don't move the ball any further on 2nd/3rd downs. Even better would have been something more deceptive like an Allen bootleg or designed run or something. Instead, they effectively gave up a down and got the ball on to the kicker's weaker side. Then by going deep immediately they basically squandered any of the benefit from running the clock down to 2:00 as Mahomes would have had plenty of time and two timeouts anyway if the second down shot had connected.
Just a clusterfuck all around.
Do you have the same data for Ryland?
No one disputes that the play calls (or Allen decisions) were optimal. If Allen threw underneath once or twice there likely would have been a different outcome. Regardless of hash.
But why would the rule need to be fixed at all? This is how I found the formation described:
The officials gave the defense about 10 seconds on the play clock when they announced Vereen was ineligible. The rule book requires 7 seconds.
I have a complete non-sequitur officiating question, if you don't mind.
I've never understood why spiking the ball isn't international grounding? And if there's a carveout for it in the rules somehow, couldn't a QB almost always just spike it at any point in the play and claim he was killing the clock? I've never understood this one.
Yes, I am clearly defeated because you guys are pulling from memory that Ryland is shit from the right hash.
Bricks from the left:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcK5oDLVhYg&pp=ygUSY2hhZCByeWxhbmQgbWlzc2Vz
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlWdDQGS0Es&pp=ygUSY2hhZCByeWxhbmQgbWlzc2Vz
Three makes from the right lol:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ST7OGMLA7WE
Two Chad Ryland makes in college from the right:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozZ_tYNoOX4
45 yarder from the right in a Bowl game:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVJ0MecL-i4
I'm not CFB, but my understanding is that the spike is contained in the rules as allowable to stop the clock. And that the spike must be done immediately upon receiving the snap, not at any time afterwards in the play.
Yeah there is a carveout for immediately spiking the ball. You have to do it as soon as you get control of the ball and it can't hit the ground.
There was actually a play in the NFL a couple years ago where the QB took the snap, took a very quick look at a WR, and then spiked it. It was flagged for ING, because if he had time to make a read then the spike wasn't immediate.
Ok so your answer is basically that they should have run left or thrown left. Incomplete is incomplete. Guess what. If that kick is from the left hash then he has to guide it right. The kick sliced horribly knowing he had to kick it left. That kick was missing no matter where it was from.
Here's the formation:
The Patriots are intending for this to look like two receivers at the top and three at the bottom. However, there are actually three receivers at the top and two at the bottom. All three at the top have eligible numbers and all three at the bottom also have eligible numbers. The defense can't see down the line of scrimmage because they are standing on the field. So the officials need to tell them who is eligible and who is not.
Now, look at Harbaugh's actual complaint from the presser immediately following the game:
He's saying that the officials would declare one of the 6 ineligible and then the offense would immediately snap. Well, there's a big difference between having 3 receivers on one side of the field vs 2, and he felt like they weren't given any time to adjust. Note that he says the officials did exactly that after that series, but they had already given up a touchdown.
Now here is the play that the Patriots borrowed it from:
But here there is a BIG key difference. The tight end at the top is wearing number 89. The guy split out wide is 350 pounds and wearing number 74. If the defense can't figure out that 74 is a lineman being split out wide, that's on them.
But here there is a BIG key difference. The tight end at the top is wearing number 89. The guy split out wide is 350 pounds and wearing number 74. If the defense can't figure out that 74 is a lineman being split out wide, that's on them.
I'll leave this by one again quoting the greatest coach of all time "And, the conditions – whether it's wind, temperature, field position, hash mark, all those things – you try to get 100 percent consistent on every kick. So, that's what we'll do, keep working on that." You're literally arguing against giving your kicker the best statistical chance at making one of the most important kicks in your franchises history, so there really isn't much more to talk about here.
Except Vinovich announced on the PA 34 is ineligible. Do not cover 34. How is that not letting the defense know
But the officials TOLD THEM who the ineligible receiver was: Vereen. He identified him by number: 34. DO NOT COVER 34.
The real problem was the the Ravens stayed in man. Had they switched to zone they would have been alright.
The real problem was the the Ravens stayed in man. Had they switched to zone they would have been alright.
No, I am arguing against prioritizing the hash mark when you have a chance to take the lead with a touchdown.
Edit: also, those are words by BB. Why did he not run up the middle in the Giants game to put the ball directly in the middle of the field? The answer is because there are other factors involved. Like trying to make a first down and win the game. You are making this way too simplistic.
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The officials announce the number of who is ineligible. Why do the Ravens need more time to adjust? I think in this specific case the officials even said not to cover 34.
Subsequent series? To my knowledge, the Patriots ran a variation of the play 3 times, all on the same drive.
As others have noted, they only used the formation on that one drive. Do you mean after they picked up the 16 yard gain with Hoo-man?
Yes. All Baltimore had to do was switch to zone. Or blitz a guy on Vereen's side and laugh at the idea of Vereen suddenly becoming an OL.
Yeah I understand. But I would be hot too if I was a coach and I had to decide my defense based on the timing of the Referee's announcement. It should just be based off of the offense.
Just to set the table, I haven't read this thread at all so maybe this has been covered.
I live in Tampa and I am a big Bucs fan.
I think Todd Bowles is one of the worst head coaches I have seen. The complete lack of aggression or trying to WIN the game (as opposed to doing everything possible to not lose) is unforgivable and tough to watch.
As unbiased observers here, am I missing something? I am trying to talk myself into the fact that I may be too harsh, but I really do not want to watch another year of him patrolling the sidelines looking like he smelled a fart all game
I live in Tampa and I am a big Bucs fan.
I think Todd Bowles is one of the worst head coaches I have seen. The complete lack of aggression or trying to WIN the game (as opposed to doing everything possible to not lose) is unforgivable and tough to watch.
As unbiased observers here, am I missing something? I am trying to talk myself into the fact that I may be too harsh, but I really do not want to watch another year of him patrolling the sidelines looking like he smelled a fart all game
They ran the ball to the right on 3rd and 8 with Tyquan F'n Thornton because they could a. get a first by some miracle b. get to Ryland's preferred hash- which he prefers over the left and middle? If it seems simplistic because it is. Kickers have a preferred side and kicking in these situations is a likely outcome.
I will be rooting for the Ravens. I can't stand Harbaugh but I like Lamar and I am tired of the Cheifs. Plus, the Mahomes press conference after the Kadarius Toney offsides was one of the most pathetic, whiny things I have ever seen....and it was about a call that the refs actually got right. I can't stand him.
So again - you would have done what? Run left on 1st down? Ok.You can say Hardo fucked up by letting Brady call for a run right. But again, I have much more of a problem with what they did on 2nd down, 3rd down, the fake punt, etc. than that play. YMMV (and obviously does).
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4Q3gmF0U0Y
Not great quality, but all 3 passes are shown here. One of the issues was that the loudspeaker announcement does not come in clearly at all on the TV broadcast, but there are announcements before each snap.
I am 100% sure Vinovich announced the eligibility change before all three plays, because Referees are required to. It sounds like Harbaugh's complaint is timing related, that they were not sufficient time to adjust coverage to the sudden declaration of who was eligible. It feels to me that rather than banning it, they should just treat it like an offensive substitution.
The Patriots had a murderer on their team with a checkered past. The NFL is dirty everywhere.
How would that even work? The offense lines up and then the official stands over the ball until the defense figures out who to cover/not cover? How long does the defense get? Do they signal they're good when they have figured it out? What if the playclock runs out? Announcing a player is ineligible should be sufficient enough. If he's ineligible, don't cover him.
I didn't see anything that needed to be fixed. It's essentially a reverse of a tackle eligible. Do defenses get more time to adjust when a tackle declares as eligible?
The Patriots sprung someting on the Ravens that the Ravens were unprepared for. The Ravens were free to take a timeout to sort things out or check into a safe zone, which is typically what teams do if they see something in-game they haven't seen before. They did neither and acted like they were entitled to more time to figure things out.
Given that Bass is statistically better from the left and that the wind was blowing left to right and since I'm not aware of any flaw or weakness in the Buffalo personnel or playbook that prevents them from trying to score and or make positive yardage using the left side of the field, I would have reminded my QB and OC of the fact that, while we want to win above all else, having to kick a FG is a likely outcome and our kicker prefers kicking from the left.
Ok. Well, on both 2nd and 3rd down the Bills had more eligible receivers to the left than the right. On both plays, Allen looks left. So, it's entirely possible that they did have this conversation, and it just played out like it did.
On the first down run (from the left hash), Cook was lined up to the left of Allen, and then he jump-cut back right. Perhaps that was a failure in coaching.
Honestly, it was really just the first Hooman play that the Ravens had any reason to complain about (if they even did have a legit reason). Perhaps everything happened extremely fast on that play. I could see it playing out that way, if Vereen told Vinovich he was ineligible, then Vinovich making a quick announcement. Hooman was lined up looking like an LT on that play and made the catch. Obviously that would confuse the Ravens.
The 2nd play, Edelman makes the catch. There's no reason on earth to not cover Edelman. No excuse.
The 3rd play, we clearly hear Vinovich say that 34 is ineligible. It was the same play as the first play. No excuse.
Consider why the substitution process works the way it does. The offense substitutes, the defense gets time (probably 15 total seconds or so) to substitute. Why? Because the defense has the fundamental right to identify what the position players are out there, what they are doing, and respond accordingly. You see the same thing in other sports. When a team in the NBA goes to a 4 guard lineup, the other team is given a chance to run somebody small up to the table and get them in as well.
So, in this case, the team is using a game administration rule to mask who they have out there. This rule was only meant to save the owners money, not have any effect on the actual game itself. They're not telling the defense if they have lineman or tight ends or what out there. Then they tell the Referee, who announces it but doesn't delay the snap.
It would be like if an NBA team sent 10 players to the sub table, five stepped onto the court and then the ref put the ball in play immediately. It's not against the rules, but it's not exactly fair. In the NBA the officials would just refrain from putting the ball in play until the defense saw who was out there. That's all I feel like the officials should have had to do here.
Reading some Pats fans on SoSH high on 20 years of an all-universe, unicorn run of individual and team dominance go hoarse rooting for Miami, Buffalo, and the Ravens in three consecutive weeks is amazing to watch.
It's also a through the looking glass glimpse of how everyone else in American football thought of the Patriots, and Pats fans for the past two decades. I know we all know how fandom and fan projection works, but it's still wild to see it with such little self-awareness when the script is flipped.