I was hoping for some acknowledgment of twice evading a "begs the question" penalty, at the very least.Itwasn'tme.
Here's why:Right. Which should raise the question: Why would "The League Office" do that?
In anywhere but DFG-world, this question is met with a "they wouldn't, it would be horribly dumb".
Which should then raise the question: WHO in the NFL office is leaking this stuff, and why?
That's a far more interesting query, I think.
And of course, being the NFL, they manage to make themselves look even worse with how incredibly impotent they were during the hearing. If the leak wa to show "hey we really tried this time!" But after reading the transcript I know I went away thinking, no you really didn't.Here's why:
1) They famously failed to appropriately discipline a player who assaulted a woman, which led to the worst PR scandal in League history.
2) Greg Hardy is a domestic abuser they attempted to discipline outside the CBA.
3) The League's suspension of the player was rebuked by its own hand-picked arbitrator.
4) The player was signed by one of the most visible and popular teams in the NFL.
5) The player has been an unrepentant asshole – fighting with his teammates and coaches, tweeting garbage about his legal problems, making vaguely threaten comments about the wife of most popular player in the League.
6) The team's owner has enabled the player at every turn and not only does not appear to have any interest in cutting ties with him but actually is trying to lock him up for years to come.
All of which is to say, the NFL has every reason to want Hardy to go away – and basically has no recourse left. He is absolute poison. Every time Hardy's name is mentioned—and as discussed on a few other threads the Cowboys have been on at least 5 nationally televised games already—it reinforces every thing people don't like about the NFL. That it is misogynistic and anti-woman. That it is dangerous and violent. And perhaps worst of all, that it is soulless and maybe even a little evil – that makes a big show of morality ("No More") but looks the other way at every opportunity the moment a dollar is to be made ("What's wrong with a little more?"). And now, this guy is going to be as much of a topic of conversation as as Donald Frigging Trump when people sit down with their family over Thanksgiving.
So to me, there's no reason for this to be some rogue League official. This has all the makings of a fucking disaster of epic proportions and the League has every right to be terrified of where this leads.
They could be 2-8 going into Thanksgiving against an undefeated team. This is tele-diagnosis at its worst, but it seems that the more clusterfucky the season gets for Dallas, the more likely Hardy is to redline on the field.And now, this guy is going to be as much of a topic of conversation as as Donald Frigging Trump when people sit down with their family over Thanksgiving.
So to me, there's no reason for this to be some rogue League official. This has all the makings of a fucking disaster of epic proportions and the League has every right to be terrified of where this leads.
It's included under the Jimmy J. banner, but you almost have to mention the Herschel Walker trade separately as Jerry landing ass backwards into tremendous luck that set up the Cowboys for their SB runs.Al Davis's 1970s Raiders teams were built on enabling "talented players with shady pasts". John Madden is beloved largely because he coached that group of ruffians to success.
I think you are off-base comparing Al Davis to Jerry Jones. I do appreciate that you made clear that Jones knows about 1/1000000th about football that Davis did.
Al got old, and made bad decisions trying to win more more Super Bowl after the Tuck Rule and Gruden/Tampa stuff. It did really hurt the franchise but for guy who had nearly 50 years in the NFL, his worst stretch came at the end. Everyone loses their fastball at some point.
Jerry Jones has never had a fastball, or made good decisions and owes all of his football success to Jimmy Johnson. His "approach" is very dissimilar to Davis's and Jerry's issues are entirely different.
So yeah, the two old guys are both old. Past that, there's little comparison to be made here.
Jerry's much more like Donald Sterling, except Sterling didn't go to college with Jimmy Johnson.
You don't think the signing of troubled players and, more so, the enabling of such players even as they are cancerous to the team is similar?Al Davis's 1970s Raiders teams were built on enabling "talented players with shady pasts". John Madden is beloved largely because he coached that group of ruffians to success.
I think you are off-base comparing Al Davis to Jerry Jones. I do appreciate that you made clear that Jones knows about 1/1000000th about football that Davis did.
Al got old, and made bad decisions trying to win more more Super Bowl after the Tuck Rule and Gruden/Tampa stuff. It did really hurt the franchise but for guy who had nearly 50 years in the NFL, his worst stretch came at the end. Everyone loses their fastball at some point.
Jerry Jones has never had a fastball, or made good decisions and owes all of his football success to Jimmy Johnson. His "approach" is very dissimilar to Davis's and Jerry's issues are entirely different.
So yeah, the two old guys are both old. Past that, there's little comparison to be made here.
Jerry's much more like Donald Sterling, except Sterling didn't go to college with Jimmy Johnson.
I'm not going to "agree to disagree" on an issue where you are mis-stating facts to fit your theory.You don't think the signing of troubled players and, more so, the enabling of such players even as they are cancerous to the team is similar?
If not, we'll have to agree to disagree.
Yes, the 70's Raiders had talented players with shady pasts, but the difference is those players took care of their football obligations. They may have done stuff away from the field, but when they were all about winning first while playing. The players Al started signing in the 90's and 2000's were no longer like this: their off field issues affected the team. It's quite possible some of this was due to the culture and media coverage of football changing, more so than the players themselves, but Al ignored this and kept being Al. I see Jerry the same way.
Bosoxen should make this his signature.Al Davis once knew what to do with a stopwatch. Bob Kraft eventually learned to stop using one. Jerry Jones knowshas learnednothing.
That escalated quickly. The racontuer description under your name seems quite apt.I'm not going to "agree to disagree" on an issue where you are mis-stating facts to fit your theory.
If you want to claim the 90s & 2000s Raiders "didn't take care of their football obligations" you need to cite some sources. Further, if you want to claim the 70s Raiders didn't get into trouble off-field, you need to invent a time machine and change a very-documented past.
See Jerry anyway you want - you are correct that he's an idiot. But you don't seem to know jack or shit about Al Davis, the Raiders or what you're talking about here.
I wouldn't make a habit of bragging about that.I don't care to cite sources.
Not at all what I implied, but it's a cute one-liner.So football owners get old and then they can't hack it anymore. That's it? that's your theory?
And once again, beautifully fahkin' illustrated.So football owners get old and then they can't hack it anymore. That's it? that's your theory?
I agree with you. All I'm trying to do is convince soxfan121 that the 2002 Raiders Superbowl season is merely a blip on an otherwise uninterrupted downward trajectory.Not at all what I implied, but it's a cute one-liner.
Football acumen has *always* been Jerry Jones's problem. I think that's the disagreement here. Other than hiring Jimmy Johnson, Jerry Jones has never, not for a minute, known what he was doing when it came time to deal with the football side of his football team. Al Davis got old and shitty. Jerry Jones is old and shitty. But Jerry Jones has always been shitty. Ditching Jimmy Johnson comes from the same fountain of stupid as does the stubborn enabling & praising of Hardy.That escalated quickly. The racontuer description under your name seems quite apt.
I don't care to cite sources. This is a message board, not an academic paper, nor is this Cowboys thread the appropriate place to go into detail on the Raiders organization of the past. I was simply trying to make the point that Al's stubbornness and inability to change, particularly through the (mis)evaluation of players and his constant enabling of them doomed the Raiders for many years, and I see Jerry Jones doing the same thing. In particular, the Greg Hardy acquisition and enabling suggests that Jones doesn't care about the countless negatives Hardy brings to both the franchise and the team as long as he generates pass rush on the field, which is related to this thread. More importantly, it's microcosm that is problematic for the current Cowboys and, unless things change, the franchise moving forward.
Sox and Rocks stated "they may have done stuff away from the field" so your comment above is pretty disingenuous.I'm not going to "agree to disagree" on an issue where you are mis-stating facts to fit your theory.
If you want to claim the 90s & 2000s Raiders "didn't take care of their football obligations" you need to cite some sources. Further, if you want to claim the 70s Raiders didn't get into trouble off-field, you need to invent a time machine and change a very-documented past.
See Jerry anyway you want - you are correct that he's an idiot. But you don't seem to know jack or shit about Al Davis, the Raiders or what you're talking about here.
Wait a minute. I thought Jones essentially made the key personnel decisions for the Cowboys. And, correct me if I'm wrong, they've had a fairly talented roster, no? This isn't Hugh Millen/Detroit levels of incompetence, far from it, and that seems to be where you're heading with this.Football acumen has *always* been Jerry Jones's problem. I think that's the disagreement here. Other than hiring Jimmy Johnson, Jerry Jones has never, not for a minute, known what he was doing when it came time to deal with the football side of his football team. Al Davis got old and shitty. Jerry Jones is old and shitty. But Jerry Jones has always been shitty. Ditching Jimmy Johnson comes from the same fountain of stupid as does the stubborn enabling & praising of Hardy.
Paging @Bosoxen or @Greg29fan or any Cowboys fan to the courtesy phone. I repeat, any Cowboys fan...please pick up the courtesy phone. Thank you.Wait a minute. I thought Jones essentially made the key personnel decisions for the Cowboys. And, correct me if I'm wrong, they've had a fairly talented roster, no? This isn't Hugh Millen/Detroit levels of incompetence, far from it, and that seems to be where you're heading with this.
Now, is Jones a first-class douchenozzle, and has he undermined his team and coaching staff by weeding out those who can say no to him, and through his other actions (like in the Hardy case)? Absolutely. But I just don't see the total level of incompetence you're portraying.
We can acknowledge that he's not a HoF owner and innovator like Al Davis without insisting he's Marge Schott.
Matt Millen. Hugh Millen's incompetence was limited to playing QB for the Pats.Wait a minute. I thought Jones essentially made the key personnel decisions for the Cowboys. And, correct me if I'm wrong, they've had a fairly talented roster, no? This isn't Hugh Millen/Detroit levels of incompetence, far from it, and that seems to be where you're heading with this.
Now, is Jones a first-class douchenozzle, and has he undermined his team and coaching staff by weeding out those who can say no to him, and through his other actions (like in the Hardy case)? Absolutely. But I just don't see the total level of incompetence you're portraying.
We can acknowledge that he's not a HoF owner and innovator like Al Davis without insisting he's Marge Schott.
Jerrah has plenty of input obviously but not as much as say ten years ago as Stephen Jones negotiates most of the contracts now. Will McClay, who is the assistant director of player personnel, is also involved.Paging @Bosoxen or @Greg29fan or any Cowboys fan to the courtesy phone. I repeat, any Cowboys fan...please pick up the courtesy phone. Thank you.
I agree---but that requirement is every bit as much true of soxfan121's comments up above as Sox and Rocks isn't it? Look at how he characterized the Raiders teams in post 110--no cites. Saying 'show your work' shouldn't be a one-way standard, and it isn't an excuse for mischaracterizing someone else's posts, no matter how silly you may find them.As someone who doesn't know, I'd personally like to have some examples or descriptions that would allow me to assess whether or not the '80s and '90s Raiders players let their off the field shit interfere with their on the field play or not.
And no, we don't need an academic dissertation style bibliography, but, as E5 was getting at, even a suggestion of something to use for criteria to use to assess the position would be nice. Different people put in different levels of work in explanation, sure, but we do strive to move beyond "take my word for it here."
Thanks. The back-and-forth on this is good reading.Jerrah has plenty of input obviously but not as much as say ten years ago as Stephen Jones negotiates most of the contracts now. Will McClay, who is the assistant director of player personnel, is also involved.
McClay and Stephen also run much of the draft - exhibit A being not drafting Johnny Football. When Jerrah had full control - he's playing QB for the Cowboys right now (or still in rehab).
I don't see any of this as a knock on Jerry Jones. Every GM has a team of people and can delegate responsibilities as he sees fit. And clearly, Jerry is the one hiring these guys, so if he's hiring good people and listening to them, I don't see what the problem is. I'm hardly nominating him for Executive of the Year or anything, but he's nowhere near late-career-Al-Davis levels of incompetence.Jerrah has plenty of input obviously but not as much as say ten years ago as Stephen Jones negotiates most of the contracts now. Will McClay, who is the assistant director of player personnel, is also involved.
McClay and Stephen also run much of the draft - exhibit A being not drafting Johnny Football. When Jerrah had full control - he's playing QB for the Cowboys right now (or still in rehab).
Fair enough. Roughly .500 post Switzer SB, missed the playoffs more than they made it. But not abject suckitude.Wait a minute. I thought Jones essentially made the key personnel decisions for the Cowboys. And, correct me if I'm wrong, they've had a fairly talented roster, no? This isn't Hugh Millen/Detroit levels of incompetence, far from it, and that seems to be where you're heading with this.
Now, is Jones a first-class douchenozzle, and has he undermined his team and coaching staff by weeding out those who can say no to him, and through his other actions (like in the Hardy case)? Absolutely. But I just don't see the total level of incompetence you're portraying.
We can acknowledge that he's not a HoF owner and innovator like Al Davis without insisting he's Marge Schott.
I am more than happy to provide citations upon request. Post #110/#114 should be more than fully explained by these sources - admittedly you might need to get to a library or use the Amazon link above to fully delve into the topic but its worth the time to learn about Al Davis, one of the most brilliant and interesting people in football history.I agree---but that requirement is every bit as much true of soxfan121's comments up above as Sox and Rocks isn't it? Look at how he characterized the Raiders teams in post 110--no cites. Saying 'show your work' shouldn't be a one-way standard, and it isn't an excuse for mischaracterizing someone else's posts, no matter how silly you may find them.
As I noted in post 125, you mischaracterized what Sox and Rocks actually said about the Raiders off-field activities.PKB, please cite for everyone in the audience when posters haven't been required to show their work on SoSH. You've been here as long as I have...when, exactly, were posters allowed to make shit up and have opinions unsupported by data/facts?
Did I mention any names in my post? Hell, did I even quote a post or refer to a specific one?I agree---but that requirement is every bit as much true of soxfan121's comments up above as Sox and Rocks isn't it? Look at how he characterized the Raiders teams in post 110--no cites. Saying 'show your work' shouldn't be a one-way standard, and it isn't an excuse for mischaracterizing someone else's posts, no matter how silly you may find them.
Look man, except in truly extreme cases, I care much less about attitude than I do information, and that's traditionally how this place has been modded.I have no problem with people asking 'what's the basis of that?' if someone disagrees with or is curious about something; however, a pattern of attacking people with 'what's your source?' as a way to shout down any differing opinion is not a road I think we benefit from going down.
This is but one chapter in the Jerry Jones story. There are several others. There was the firing of Jimmy Johnson, the trade for Joey Galloway, the drafting of Quincy Carter and other well-documented dumbfuckery. The only reason this team is where it is today is because Bill Parcells built a foundation upon which Stephen and McClay built the current team. And yet, as was alluded to earlier, this team is still completely and utterly fucked without Romo.Jerrah has plenty of input obviously but not as much as say ten years ago as Stephen Jones negotiates most of the contracts now. Will McClay, who is the assistant director of player personnel, is also involved.
McClay and Stephen also run much of the draft - exhibit A being not drafting Johnny Football. When Jerrah had full control - he's playing QB for the Cowboys right now (or still in rehab).
As a proud southerner he's mostly right. When he says homes he's not including trailers and trailer parks"Just something that's nonexistent in most southern homes"?????????
I mean, WHAT THE FUCK.
Does this remind anyone else of the Cyclops scene from The Odyssey?
Now this is good.So are they all, all honourable men.