3 touchdowns for Mac.Against the #3 defense in the NFL, Mac Jones - with a beat up and subpar offensive line, no running game, and his WR1 out (and apparently not a great group of receivers anyway) - went 35-54 (64.8%) for 316 yds, 2 td, and 1 int and the team scored 20 points.
Meanwhile, against a defense ranked #20 in points allowed and #14 in yards allowed last year, Joe Burrow - with elite players all around him - went 14-31 (45.2%) for 82 yds, 0 td, and 0 int, and the team scored 3 points.
I'm encouraged because the Pats were playing without their two best OL, their WR1, their RB1 was playing sick, they were playing one of the best teams in the NFL, got off to a 0-16 deficit, and nearly came back to win the game. I thought they were going to get absolutely blown out today and they showed me a LOT of good things.Here's the thing about close losses to good teams - when they keep happening, they aren't encouraging. This isn't a Pats team that was terrible the last couple of years and is on it's way up to the point where we can be happy that we were competitive with a top tier super bowl contender. This is a perfectly average Pats team, just like the last 3 years. We're a team that generally beats the bad teams and loses to the good ones, often in close games. Was it encouraging in 2021 when we lost to Tampa by 2, or to Dallas in OT? Or in 2022 when we lost to GB in OT, or to Minnesota by one score, or to Vegas on a fluke play, or to Cincy by 4? At some point close losses to good teams aren't a sign of good things to come, they are a sign that we aren't good enough right now.
I'll be encouraged when we actually beat a good team. Over the last two years, we are 3-9 against playoff teams. Their three wins were against Buffalo (in the frozen game when we attempted like two passes), Miami (when Tua was hurt), and Tennessee (when Derrick Henry, AJ Brown and Julio Jones were all hurt). At best we're a competitive team that can't get it done when it counts against the strongest teams.
Felt like most of the stops happened with just the defensive line. No one getting pushed off spots. It’s a good opponent playing against their strength but not being able to even scratch out short yards was part of what killed their offense.The running game gets infinitely easier to defend when you know the QB can't beat you. I think that was part of it
This is how I feel too. I was positive, based on pre-season practice reports and game footage, that this was going to be a BLOW-OUT. That the Patriots hung with a much more talented Eagles team is encouraging. I feel bad for (and pissed about) Boutte, but I trust he'll get better at that, he'll certainly be motivated. VERY encouraging performance against one of the best teams they'll play all year. Yes, Mac had a rough first quarter - a couple bad throws in the rain - but I love that he played so well the rest of the way. Didn't let it get him down, kept making plays. Bourne was mostly really great, the offense moved the ball decently, especially given the crap OL and the fierce Iggles front.Sure there were some stupid mistakes. But overall I am encouraged
Why is it terrible?And let’s be real for a second… 316 yards on 54 attempts is not good. It’s terrible, actually.
There were plenty of “encouraging” games last year i.e. Bengals. It’s time to win. They’re a mediocre team. All of the mediocre teams have plenty of encouraging loses.Last year the Eagles:
- Won 14 games
- Went to the Super Bowl
- Had the NFL's #3 offense
- Had the NFL's #2 defense
The Patriots - missing two of their OL starters and presumably #1 WR (Parker):
- Held last year's #3 offense to just 251 yards (they averaged 389 a game last year)
- Held last year's #3 offense to just 18 points (they averaged 28.1 a game last year)
- Gained 382 yards on last year's #2 defense (they allowed 301.0 a game last year)
- Scored 20 points on last year's #2 defense (they allowed 20.2 a game last year)
Overall, that's pretty damned encouraging to me.
He’s thrown some very good passes. And he’s thrown some total ducks. He’s inconsistent. Which are the kind of QBs who often struggle to win close and late games. Because you gotta string together 8, 10, 12 good plays in a row to seal a win.I am not sure I fully understand your argument here. He had enough physical ability to throw beautiful touchdown passes to Bourne (twice) and Henry (once). He threw some passes with real zip and some with real touch and some with real precision. If he has enough talent to throw those passes, he has enough to throw those passes.
I think in the end, he was under more pressure than he had been earlier in the game. That'll make it hard on anyone - Jalen Hurts struggled when the Pats put pressure on him too. (I'm NOT saying Mac is as good as Hurts)
But I do think that Mac needs more around him to go right than maybe other QBs do, and if that stuff isn't there, he doesn't have enough ability on his own to pull out these games. Maybe that's more what you mean.
Yeah, I know, but given how they performed in pre-season and practice, I was not expecting it to be as close as the bettors seemed to. Nobody in the NFL actually thinks the Patriots as currently constructed (EDIT: ARE) only 4-5 points worse than the Eagles. Except now...maybe we do?The Eagles covered, guys. This wasn't really supposed to be a blowout.
The fact they were calling that many short passes may be a sign they aren’t particularly confident in Mac’s ability to throw mid- and long-range passes.Why is it terrible?
Because y/pa lacks all context as a stat?
Mac had 13 completions to his running backs, most of which were of the screen variety, and a number of quick passes to the outside. It was pretty clear from the jump the game plan involved short passing in lieu of running the ball.
I would imagine when F-ref updates the stats, we'll find that there was a shit ton of passes, by design, that didn't travel to or more than 1-2 yards passed the LOS. Those aren't chunk play types (especially when you're throwing them to guys like Ty Montgomery and Zeke Elliott who are running 4.8 40's at this point.
It's week one, Pats at home, Eagles coming off a Super Bowl loss, they lost both coordinators, lots of weird stuff happens this early... the talent discrepancy is likely bigger than the Vegas number, but there were plenty of reasons to project a close game. I just think a lot of people are approaching this result as if they were supposed to get killed and that's not really true.Yeah, I know, but given how they performed in pre-season and practice, I was not expecting it to be as close as the bettors seemed to. Nobody in the NFL actually thinks the Patriots as currently constructed is only 4-5 points worse than the Eagles. Except now...maybe we do?
But in what world are people in N.E. and on message boards like this one under the impression that they AREN'T mediocre? They are. I assumed this team will win 7 or so games. This was a better performance - against a tough, elite team - than I expected. But they're still rebuilding, and I took today as a sign of positive movement, thanks to having an actual OC and making some decent picks in the draft.There were plenty of “encouraging” games last year i.e. Bengals. It’s time to win. They’re a mediocre team. All of the mediocre teams have plenty of encouraging loses.
I know your whole thing here is to yell down Mac haters. And I appreciate it because people can get weird about him. We also have agreed for 2 seasons running that we need a top end WR.Why is it terrible?
Because y/pa lacks all context as a stat?
Mac had 13 completions to his running backs, most of which were of the screen variety, and a number of quick passes to the outside. It was pretty clear from the jump the game plan involved short passing in lieu of running the ball.
I would imagine when F-ref updates the stats, we'll find that there was a shit ton of passes, by design, that didn't travel to or more than 1-2 yards passed the LOS. Those aren't chunk play types (especially when you're throwing them to guys like Ty Montgomery and Zeke Elliott who are running 4.8 40's at this point.
More likely, in my book, that it has to do with their shit-tastic and injured OL against the best pass rush in the NFL.The fact they were calling that many short passes may be a sign they aren’t particularly confident in Mac’s ability to throw mid- and long-range passes.
The line was set before the Pats declared three of their best offensive players to be out, but given that Philly's D-line is elite, and the Pats' O-line was suspect, AND missing two of their best OL players, AND given that their best RB was sick (though he played), I figured the Pats would have all kinds of trouble moving the ball and scoring. Didn't you?It's week one, Pats at home, Eagles coming off a Super Bowl loss, they lost both coordinators, lots of weird stuff happens this early... the talent discrepancy is likely bigger than the Vegas number, but there were plenty of reasons to project a close game. I just think a lot of people are approaching this result as if they were supposed to get killed and that's not really true.
Or maybe it's about taking what the defense is giving, and also a bit of recognition that it's not Mac, we have no outside threats at receiver, especially without Parker.The fact they were calling that many short passes may be a sign they aren’t particularly confident in Mac’s ability to throw mid- and long-range passes.
Nope, I actually thought they could move the ball through the air on them and said so here before the game.The line was set before the Pats declared three of their best offensive players to be out, but given that Philly's D-line is elite, and the Pats' O-line was suspect, AND missing two of their best OL players, AND given that their best RB was sick (though he played), I figured the Pats would have all kinds of trouble moving the ball and scoring. Didn't you?
That's fine; play to his strengths. When it was McDaniels at the helm he insisted on running the Brady offense with all the deeper, longer developing routes and it was a square peg in a round hole. Mac is physically limited and they should mostly play a ball-control, quick passing offense. He takes his shots, but his deep ball accuracy is abysmal. I feel like the ducks and floaters he throws are mainly poor mechanics because all of his TD passes from today were nicely zipped in there and the iffy balls looked like they were the off the back foot variety. Maybe he solves his mechanical issues, but at this point the cake feels baked.The fact they were calling that many short passes may be a sign they aren’t particularly confident in Mac’s ability to throw mid- and long-range passes.
Nothing about the team screamed mediocre to me - they competed at a high level and frankly were a better team for that game - other than the 2 turnovers.But in what world are people in N.E. and on message boards like this one under the impression that they AREN'T mediocre? They are. I assumed this team will win 7 or so games. This was a better performance - against a tough, elite team - than I expected. But they're still rebuilding, and I took today as a sign of positive movement, thanks to having an actual OC and making some decent picks in the draft.
I acknowledge that the number wasn't as big. I disagreed with the number. (Also, spreads aren't some PURE stat based solely on what will happen, it has to do with how people bet, too. You could say the line was lower than expected b/c of the correct assumption that, early in the year, teams aren't quite as sharp, plus the weather and other factors. For me, the fact is that the team has been terribly disappointing against GOOD TEAMS, especially on offense, for a few years now. Today didn't seem like the Pats kept it close b/c Philly played down to them or due to early season sloppiness. It seemed like they kept it close bc the Patriots are better and their system is closer to sophisticated and dynamic than it's been since Mac walked with a brisk pace toward the guy who steals draft picks and lies about why.It's week one, Pats at home, Eagles coming off a Super Bowl loss, they lost both coordinators, lots of weird stuff happens this early... the talent discrepancy is likely bigger than the Vegas number, but there were plenty of reasons to project a close game. I just think a lot of people are approaching this result as if they were supposed to get killed and that's not really true.
Ok fair enough.Nope, I actually thought they could move the ball through the air on them and said so here before the game.
I wasn't clear. I meant as we headed into this season, based on LAST year (and the year before) and on pre-season.Nothing about the team screamed mediocre to me - they competed at a high level and frankly were a better team for that game - other than the 2 turnovers.
the defense finally finally stopped a running QB.
we dressed 11 rookies today and other than Boutte looked every bit the part with the Eagles
The problem is, Mac was in a funk and was missing high on throw after throw. A pass to Douglas that should have been a first but was too high. Then the Bourne pick which was thrown too high. Then the Zeke fubmle after a catch of a poorly thrown (too high) ball. Mac cannot afford to miss on his throws.The 1st quarter pick was bad but some serious overreaction to one bad throw. It was unfortunately tipped and picked off - this wasn’t a dumb decision or WTF throw.
I've said it repeatedly, I don't think Mac is a top 10 QB, and probably not even top 15. I also don't think Jalen Hurts is a top 10-15 QB either. I also don't think Brock Purdy is.I know your whole thing here is to yell down Mac haters. And I appreciate it because people can get weird about him. We also have agreed for 2 seasons running that we need a top end WR.
But yeah, he obviously was asked to throw mostly short stuff. I didn’t say he sucks because he had a 5.9 YPA. I said that YPA sucks. And it does. You don’t win games with that, coupled with an ineffective running game. Because you don’t score. Which we didn’t.
Some of his better throws today were the downfield ones. The touchdowns (13, 19, and 11 yards) were all thrown into the endzone. The 23 yarder to Douglas. Both of the throws where Boutte could not get both feet in.The fact they were calling that many short passes may be a sign they aren’t particularly confident in Mac’s ability to throw mid- and long-range passes.
The Zeke play is the shit I'm talking about.The problem is, Mac was in a funk and was missing high on throw after throw. A pass to Douglas that should have been a first but was too high. Then the Bourne pick which was thrown too high. Then the Zeke fubmle after a catch of a poorly thrown (too high) ball. Mac cannot afford to miss on his throws.
I think his legs are much better than people think, he's not a statue back there and has some mobility. The arm is fringe at best, I don't think any other starter other than Purdy is in the conversation for having a worse one. It's not an impediment, but it's something they have to take into account when scheming.Jones isn't Allen or Herbert but he is so much more physically gifted than this board gives him credit. No they aren't throwing a lot of short throws because he has a tiny arm.
What was the over under on this team? 7.5? They just played a theoretically excellent team very tight. I am quite optimistic
Football is the ultimate team sport. You need a lot of players to play well, and a lot of things to go right, in order to win in the NFL.I've said it repeatedly, I don't think Mac is a top 10 QB, and probably not even top 15. I also don't think Jalen Hurts is a top 10-15 QB either. I also don't think Brock Purdy is.
But a team with a great defense, great skill position players and a middle of the road QB can have a lot of success in the NFL. Mac put them in position to score all day long, and on at least 5 drives, they fizzled out for reasons completely unrelated to Mac.
I don't have a problem with people shitting on Mac when Mac deserves to be shit on. That pick 6 was an abomination. I do have a problem with shallow, narrative based analysis that has no reflection of what actually happened on the field. You want to shit on Mac for taking a sack on the second to last drive, well then you better acknowledge that he hit Bourne right in his hands on the next play for a first down and it was dropped. We want to shit on Mac for his y/pa numbers, then let's make sure to acknowledge that a significant part of the game plan was screens, short passes and quick passes to the outside, which destroy that statistic. We want to shit on Mac for "not getting the win" but we damned sure better acknowledge that if BB kicks a field goal, and Trent Brown doesn't tackle a guy and take 2 points off the board, and Boutte gets his feet down twice, and Henry doesn't get called for phantom bullshit, the Pats likely put 30+ on the board, and none of those have anything to do with Mac.
All those things happened (the OL holding in pass protection until the very end of the game was a very pleasant surprise), and I too thought they were going to get hammered today. That's our emotions as pats fans coming out - there's a reason why Philly was favored by just 3.5, and it's not because Vegas is stupid. It's because average teams generally play reasonably well at home. And Philly ended up covering anyway.I'm encouraged because the Pats were playing without their two best OL, their WR1, their RB1 was playing sick, they were playing one of the best teams in the NFL, got off to a 0-16 deficit, and nearly came back to win the game. I thought they were going to get absolutely blown out today and they showed me a LOT of good things.
But you're right - at some point they have to actually win these games and not just be close. But honestly, I thought they were going to lose this game by four touchdowns today.
what does this mean? every QB “misses” throws - some are going to be picked, some are going to hit the dirt. If the standard is “can’t ever miss” then it’s an impossible standardThe problem is, Mac was in a funk and was missing high on throw after throw. A pass to Douglas that should have been a first but was too high. Then the Bourne pick which was thrown too high. Then the Zeke fubmle after a catch of a poorly thrown (too high) ball. Mac cannot afford to miss on his throws.
Yeah that’s example - barely any mention of that fumble by Zeke in this thread. It was a terrible play by Zeke - certainly not the result of a bad throw by Mac.The Zeke play is the shit I'm talking about.
Here's the play again. Feel free to pause at will. Mac missed that throw by maybe a foot. He had to go to Zeke's left because the defender was coming free right in between Zeke and Mac. Zeke made a great catch, then turns, takes multiple steps and fumbles.
But yeah, let's blame Mac for Zeke forgetting how hold a ball:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rr4oSUs8Ac4
I think this team will be exactly where it was the last 3 years: 7-10 wins. In that sense, I'm optimistic that we'll hit the over on 7.5 wins. I'm not optimistic that we'll be a playoff team, and I'm very not optimistic that we'll look like a title contender at any point this year.Jones isn't Allen or Herbert but he is so much more physically gifted than this board gives him credit. No they aren't throwing a lot of short throws because he has a tiny arm.
What was the over under on this team? 7.5? They just played a theoretically excellent team very tight. I am quite optimistic
Again, I didn’t “shit on Mac”. Save it for someone who did.We want to shit on Mac for his y/pa numbers, then let's make sure to acknowledge that a significant part of the game plan was screens, short passes and quick passes to the outside, which destroy that statistic.
Ok, so then pointing out that Mac's statistics were "terrible," you were shitting on Bill O'Brien, I guess.Again, I didn’t “shit on Mac”. Save it for someone who did.
We don’t have a WR1. We have three WR3s. And one was out.All those things happened (the OL holding in pass protection until the very end of the game was a very pleasant surprise), and I too thought they were going to get hammered today. That's our emotions as pats fans coming out - there's a reason why Philly was favored by just 3.5, and it's not because Vegas is stupid. It's because average teams generally play reasonably well at home. And Philly ended up covering anyway.
As an aside, I've seen Parker mentioned as our WR1 several times. Is this actually the case? I've felt like we've got 3 WRs that are all fairly similar in ability, none of whom really stand out. Parker is 30 and his line last year was just 31/539/3. He's our most consistent deep threat, but I think his statistical ceiling on this team is lower than both Bourne's and Juju's. Losing him isn't great, but saying we played without our WR1 today misrepresents the task we were faced with, I think.
And not enough of a bad record to get one of the top QBs in the draft. I worry that we miss a window with a great defense.I think this team will be exactly where it was the last 3 years: 7-10 wins. In that sense, I'm optimistic that we'll hit the over on 7.5 wins. I'm not optimistic that we'll be a playoff team, and I'm very not optimistic that we'll look like a title contender at any point this year.
I was shitting on the entire offense, who I gave a collective goat to in this thread.Ok, so then pointing out that Mac's statistics were "terrible," you were shitting on Bill O'Brien, I guess.
Agree there for sure.Let’s be honest, Parker makes those plays that Boutte doesn’t - and those were 2 crucial plays. Call Parker whatever you want but he would have made a difference today