The other Marcus Smart thread is a bit of a bummer so I'm attacking the thread's title with this graphic from tonight's postgame show:
Stats don't matter but MS is hitting close to .400% from 3P since 11.03.The other Marcus Smart thread is a bit of a bummer so I'm attacking the thread's title with this graphic from tonight's postgame show:
That other thread was a bummer because prior to Smart signing his contract he was still an unconscious gunner for being such an awful shooter. Now that he has the security of a new contract he can settle into a role best utilizing his skillset without having to try and put numbers up. The result is a much better player for this Celtics team.The other Marcus Smart thread is a bit of a bummer so I'm attacking the thread's title with this graphic from tonight's postgame show:
Smart has never been an "unconscious gunner" although he has also historically not had the best shot selection. Still, he's never had a usage percentage over 20, which I would think makes the gunner label inappropriate.That other thread was a bummer because prior to Smart signing his contract he was still an unconscious gunner for being such an awful shooter. Now that he has the security of a new contract he can settle into a role best utilizing his skillset without having to try and put numbers up. The result is a much better player for this Celtics team.
You conveniently edited my statement to not reflect its meaning. "For being such an awful shooter" his shot selection was hurting his overall production.Smart has never been an "unconscious gunner"[/B] although he has also historically not had the best shot selection. Still, he's never had a usage percentage over 20, which I would think makes the gunner label inappropriate.
The general trend is true though, he is shooting much less this year and that might be a very good thing since he's always been a passable shooter on good looks. (He's not a good shooter by any stretch.)
As for the comment on the thread title above, the premise of the thread was to ask is there a way to capture Smart's impact statistically because even advanced stats like RPM seem to fail at it. In other words, the image posted by InstaFace is fundamentally consistent with the title and premise of this thread outside of the fact that I was hoping we might have a better answer than that in the graphic.
Agree--is there any reason Smart can't start for a championship team? He's completely excised his bad 2s, and his 3-point shooting is right in line with Draymond's (aside from Green's 2015-2016 outlier). I think in the back of everyone's mind there's the fear he'll get Tony Allen'd in the playoffs, but there's no evidence that will happen at this point. Marcus runs the offense well, unlocks Off-Ball Kyrie, and takes the defense from "good rating but not scaring anyone" to "terrifying when locked in."That other thread was a bummer because prior to Smart signing his contract he was still an unconscious gunner for being such an awful shooter. Now that he has the security of a new contract he can settle into a role best utilizing his skillset without having to try and put numbers up. The result is a much better player for this Celtics team.
No, though it would have to be the right team (ie, one that can forego any kind of scoring/spot up shooting contribution from him).Agree--is there any reason Smart can't start for a championship team?
Exactly, so the current Celtics' starting lineup with Hayward or Morris is a better situation for him than almost any in the league.No, though it would have to be the right team (ie, one that can forego any kind of scoring/spot up shooting contribution from him).
Yes. On defense, Smart sees and reads the devleoping play the same way great offensive players do at the other end. He'll also box out a center when the play calls for it. Unique player.Other teams had been destroying the Celtics this year with PnR with an empty weakside. Watch how Smart immediately knows why his guy is cutting out of the strongside, stays in the paint, avoids the 3-second call, and completely mucks up the play when Davis rolls. Stuff like this completely stops other teams from getting comfortable early, which had been killing us this year, even with the good overall defensive rating.
That's fine, the Celtics don't need Marcus to be a scorer/spot-up shooter. The Celts first 20 games was 5 starters that consider themselves scorers/spot-up shooters. And that was certainly no offensive juggernaut. That offense was basically 5 guys standing around the perimeter, occasionally setting weak screens and no one going to the hoop to establish position. No physicality, everyone looking for their shot. When you do that it makes it very easy for a defense to dictate the game. Plus it's difficult for those 5 scorers to get into any kind of offensive rhythm.No, though it would have to be the right team (ie, one that can forego any kind of scoring/spot up shooting contribution from him).
Yes, though what impressed me most about the video above was how Smart plays through picks to keep with his man. He consistently gets through the pick between his man and the pick, not giving the offensive player a gap to shoot.Yes. On defense, Smart sees and reads the devleoping play the same way great offensive players do at the other end. He'll also box out a center when the play calls for it. Unique player.
I think EJ's point was that the Celtics' starting lineup is one of the few ecosystems in the league in which Smart is a massive plus.That's fine, the Celtics don't need Marcus to be a scorer/spot-up shooter. The Celts first 20 games was 5 starters that consider themselves scorers/spot-up shooters. And that was certainly no offensive juggernaut. That offense was basically 5 guys standing around the perimeter, occasionally setting weak screens and no one going to the hoop to establish position. No physicality, everyone looking for their shot. When you do that it makes it very easy for a defense to dictate the game. Plus it's difficult for those 5 scorers to get into any kind of offensive rhythm.
By adding Smart or Baynes or Theis to a rotation, you have players willing to set hard screens for the most skilled offensive players and deferring shots to the Celtics highest % shooters (Kyrie, Tatum, MaMo). In addition to that, when playing Smart/Baynes/Theis you get more tip outs, more box outs, more rebounding, physical defense, and more GRIT.
Even the Golden State Warriors infamous Hampton's 5 line-up contains Draymond Green, who wouldn't be labeled a scorer/spot up shooter.
Fair enough. But really any rotation that has 3 or 4+ offensive players/shooters on it would benefit having Marcus on it (instead of another offense first player)I think EJ's point was that the Celtics' starting lineup is one of the few ecosystems in the league in which Smart is a massive plus.
I think I saw a tweet that said his TS% the last 6 games is something like 64%Stats don't matter but MS is hitting close to .400% from 3P since 11.03.
If he keeps shooting like that, DA has another bargain on his hands.
Yes, those numbers are somewhat cherry-picked but he's still shooting .360 from 3P since 10.30 on something like 60 attempts.
Definitely, and we're seeing that addition by subtraction (scorer-wise) very clearly now with Smart replacing Jaylen. I doubt this is lost on Brad.Fair enough. But really any rotation that has 3 or 4+ offensive players/shooters on it would benefit having Marcus on it (instead of another offense first player)
His stroke looks clean enough now that it's not crazy to imagine he can shoot 35%ish going forward on open looks in rhythm.Stats don't matter but MS is hitting close to .400% from 3P since 11.03.
If he keeps shooting like that, DA has another bargain on his hands.
Yes, those numbers are somewhat cherry-picked but he's still shooting .360 from 3P since 10.30 on something like 60 attempts.
For a bad look, imagine him on the Sixers.Fair enough. But really any rotation that has 3 or 4+ offensive players/shooters on it would benefit having Marcus on it (instead of another offense first player)
Smart was immense tonight, even beyond the scintillating numbers. Championship player.Marcus drops an 18/5/3/3, just one turnover, and even manages to log a couple of minutes at center.
Much to the dismay of benhogan as Baynes, Theis, and TimeLord were rendered helpless on the bench next to Brad.Marcus drops an 18/5/3/3, just one turnover, and even manages to log a couple of minutes at center.
Probably could've used one of them late in the fourth and OT when Wall was just rampaging to the rim every trip down the floor.Much to the dismay of benhogan as Baynes, Theis, and TimeLord were rendered helpless on the bench next to Brad.
Or, WAS would just do what they did regardless and get the switch with Wall with a full head of steam. It was defensive scheme against Wall that was poor, not the defenderProbably could've used one of them late in the fourth and OT when Wall was just rampaging to the rim every trip down the floor.
I love me some Marcus (see post #660 above), but playing him at the 5 is just more proof of Brad going incessantly small. There was absolutely no need to have Rozier on the floor, when you have offensive stars like Kyrie, Tatum, MaMo as your first, second and third offensive options. Give me a rim protector, a defense-first role player in that situation (ie TL, Baynes) to round out that rotation.Much to the dismay of benhogan as Baynes, Theis, and TimeLord were rendered helpless on the bench next to Brad.
But didn't Wall go around him the 412 times before that on the same switch? It seems like Wash was aiming for that matchup.The last time TL was on the floor he got switched on to Wall, he played off Wall and protected the rim. Wall stopped and missed a mid-range 2, which is better than giving up a layup.
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It's just another quick guard giving Boston trouble. It's been a problem all year.But didn't Wall go around him the 412 times before that on the same switch? It seems like Wash was aiming for that matchup.
Yes, WAS were dying for that matchup and sought it out repeatedly. I don’t know what it is about Washington that makes us so switch happy but we were giving them whatever 1 on 1 matchup they wanted by religiously switching all screens. They knew it and our corollary is to play as switchable a lineup as possible to downplay the impact. Williams has a few tough minutes in the middle of the game where they exploited him on the switch and his willingness to commit to block shots. This is fine, he’s a rookie, but it would have been risky to have him out there knowing the wiz were just going to isolate him. I might have tried it since we were conceding layup after layup but it would have been a very tough spot to put the kid in. For whatever reason, we seemed to really want Marcus on Beal, probably prefer to force them to make 2s over 3s. They really made us pay the few times we did collapse the paint with wide open kick 3sBut didn't Wall go around him the 412 times before that on the same switch? It seems like Wash was aiming for that matchup.
Yeah, but this was Wall just running past guys to the rim. The thing you’re talking about has been guards getting open looks all game, draining them and getting hot. It seems more a product of scheme – perhaps Brad trying to have Kyrie play more aggressively and getting burned semi-regularly. Perhaps something else. Regardless, that hasn’t been a problem during this 7-0 streak I don’t think.It's just another quick guard giving Boston trouble. It's been a problem all year.
It is that Washington knows that teams HAVE to switch as they cannot keep Wall in front of them otherwise. So now they know a switch is coming and can dictate matchups based solely on Wall’s ability to create those switches. It isn’t only Boston.....they do this to nearly everyone but it is an especially terrible matchup for Kyrie.Yes, WAS were dying for that matchup and sought it out repeatedly. I don’t know what it is about Washington that makes us so switch happy but we were giving them whatever 1 on 1 matchup they wanted by religiously switching all screens. They knew it and our corollary is to play as switchable a lineup as possible to downplay the impact.
Brad did the right thing here. It goes back to what I talked about yesterday in protecting his rotation bigs from matchups designed to exploit them. Spotting TL minutes is fine but it isn’t fair to him or the teams defense to put him in unfavorable positions against Wall who can dictate these mismatches.Williams has a few tough minutes in the middle of the game where they exploited him on the switch and his willingness to commit to block shots. This is fine, he’s a rookie, but it would have been risky to have him out there knowing the wiz were just going to isolate him. I might have tried it since we were conceding layup after layup but it would have been a very tough spot to put the kid in.
Marcus is our best wing defender who struggles against quick guards off the dribble. Beal is the Wizards best perimeter scorer. I don’t know what other options you have it certainly wouldn’t be Smart on Wall with Kyrie on Beal then you have two mismatches rather than one.For whatever reason, we seemed to really want Marcus on Beal, probably prefer to force them to make 2s over 3s. They really made us pay the few times we did collapse the paint with wide open kick 3s
I thought that it was his Marcus Smartiest game ever. The Houston one was more meaningful, and him agitating Harden all game and precipitating that meltdown was genius. But the sheer number of posessions affected last night was simply absurd. Total menace all night.That was the Marcus Smartiest game of the year, by far. His offensive statistics don't even come close to telling the tale. He was a straight menace on defense, just incredible focus on every single play, gave up on nothing, and made play after play. The announcers basically didn't stop talking about him until Kyrie took over at the end of the game. A career highlight game for Smart, right up there with the Houston comeback from just under a year ago. What a fucking performance.
I agree with this.Marcus is our best wing defender who struggles against quick guards off the dribble. Beal is the Wizards best perimeter scorer. I don’t know what other options you have it certainly wouldn’t be Smart on Wall with Kyrie on Beal then you have two mismatches rather than one.
Stevens did say after the game he went too small.I love me some Marcus (see post #660 above), but playing him at the 5 is just more proof of Brad going incessantly small. There was absolutely no need to have Rozier on the floor, when you have offensive stars like Kyrie, Tatum, MaMo as your first, second and third offensive options. Give me a rim protector, a defense-first role player in that situation (ie TL, Baynes) to round out that rotation.
The last time TL was on the floor he got switched on to Wall, he played off Wall and protected the rim. Wall stopped and missed a mid-range 2, which is better than giving up a layup.
Maybe next time instead of Marcus playing the 5, Brad will put Smart on Wall and stop that layup drill.
You can switch or go under or you can hedge/recover, blitz, or ICE.I think you have to go under the pick and take your chances with Wall over the top. Switching wasn't working. TL forced one bad shot but was burned badly the other times. So was everyone else.
Smarter coaches than i probably have a plan C and D, but that's all I got.
There are a lot of options for taking away drives from a quick guard and forcing him to make jumpers, or others to make shots. John Wall is actually an easier matchup than a lot of guys in that regard, since you'll live with his jumper more than Kemba's or Dame's.The best benefit adding Marcus to the starting lineup has is that he by far and away tries the hardest among all Cs to fight over screens, and the fact that he does that mean that KI is usually guarding the guy who isn't using as many screens and saves energy for KI's offense.
You can switch or go under or you can hedge/recover, blitz, or ICE.
Welcome to the Wanamaker Hate Club. He's not an NBA level player. He's fine as the 15th man but those guys have a very short shelf life in the NBA. He's the anti Marcus Smart, he's a box score warrior.Well, Wannmaker looks completely useless out there. Can't initiate the offense, and doesn't seem to have any impact on the defensive end. Replacing him with some annoying scrappy little defender to harrass players like Wall for several minutes a game sounds better than the status quo
Isn't this typically the case with nearly all NBA 15th men which is why they are...….NBA 15th men? Every now and again you'll catch lightning in a bottle and the player develops into a rotation guy but they are few and far between.Welcome to the Wanamaker Hate Club. He's not an NBA level player. He's fine as the 15th man but those guys have a very short shelf life in the NBA. He's the anti Marcus Smart, he's a box score warrior.
His stats look great, but watching him on the court he looks completely out of place.
Kinda. But even Shane Larkin had a role. Wanamaker doesn't bring anything to the table that the Celtics need.Isn't this typically the case with nearly all NBA 15th men which is why they are...….NBA 15th men? Every now and again you'll catch lightning in a bottle and the player develops into a rotation guy but they are few and far between.
I don't get the Wanamaker hate. I mean in the games he played he's +18, +20, +29, -12, +18, +33, +28, +56, +13 (18:29 minutes vs NO), and +5. While that doesn't tell us much, it does say that he's not giving away the farm when he's out there.Kinda. But even Shane Larkin had a role. Wanamaker doesn't bring anything to the table that the Celtics need.
What are those numbers? it's not +/-.I don't get the Wanamaker hate. I mean in the games he played he's +18, +20, +29, -12, +18, +33, +28, +56, +13 (18:29 minutes vs NO), and +5. While that doesn't tell us much, it does say that he's not giving away the farm when he's out there.
He's a semi-competent 4th PG who can fill in and play some minutes if KI, Marcus or TRoz are out of a game. He's also shooting 4-8 from 3P land so it looks like he has a shot.
IIRC, people weren't too high on Shane Larkin until he was forced to play
One play in particular from last nights game comes to mind (and Scal raved about it during the broadcast) - Smart closed out on a guy in the corner (I think it was Oubre) and clamped down on him to the point that he had no space to work with and ended up throwing the ball away.Brian Robb had a nice article on BSJ today about how great Marcus has been of late, with special note about last night. He made special mention of how often he effects a turnover, but does not get credit for a steal, by disrupting a play such that the other team throws it away.
It's behind the paywall, but worth reading if you are a subscriber.
Shane Larkin wasn’t a 15th man though as he has proven to be a competent rotation player prior to his agent parlaying that into a sweet deal overseas. He was part of the Celtics deep bench and always one of the top 11-12 in the rotation. The 15th roster spot last year was really any of Nader, Yabusele, or Bird whichever one you want to order from 13 to 15.Kinda. But even Shane Larkin had a role. Wanamaker doesn't bring anything to the table that the Celtics need.
What happened to him after last year? I ran into him in the casino at summer league, and he seemed pissed he hadn't gotten picked up anywhere after what he showed (understandably). Would have been a nice guy to have this year, specifically for quick guards.Shane Larkin wasn’t a 15th man though as he has proven to be a competent rotation player prior to his agent parlaying that into a sweet deal overseas. He was part of the Celtics deep bench and always one of the top 11-12 in the rotation. The 15th roster spot last year was really any of Nader, Yabusele, or Bird whichever one you want to order from 13 to 15.
This is all I’ve read on Larkin signing to play in Europe.What happened to him after last year? I ran into him in the casino at summer league, and he seemed pissed he hadn't gotten picked up anywhere after what he showed (understandably). Would have been a nice guy to have this year, specifically for quick guards.
Larkin said in the interview that playing time and a good situation was most important to him. He certainly was the one guy to get squeezed last summer.He signed in Turkey for almost 2 million. I am also surprised that he couldn't find that much money here