Keep drinking the BB kool-aid. Jury is out on both of them. Strange isn't that great and was massively overdrafted. Marcus Jones is a nice special teams gadget player.
Jack Jones cut
- Thread starter jsinger121
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Jones was an All Pro Special Teams returner who showed positive value on both offense and defense. That is a home run pick for a third rounder.
Strange is...strange. He's had a couple of disastrous games early each year, and then turned into a seemingly really good player the rest of the seasons. If he's the player he is 85% of the time, it's fine as a pick.
Agreed, there is a lot of hyperbolic bullshit going around. Did you hear the one about how the team would be in playoff position with an average QB?
Except Marcus Jones actually made an All Pro team for special teams, played well on defense (played at least 85% of defensive snaps in 4 of the team's last 5 games of 2022), and, oh yeah, played some offense for good measure. Not bad for a 3rd round pick. The team is not in the situation it is in because Bill selected Marcus Jones in 2022.
Sure, but I think the general point- that the 2022 draft looks pretty bad, less than two years after the fact, is hardly controversial. Jones was a fine pick, Strange at least plays…and that’s pretty much it. Not great, Bob!
Except for Marcus Jones, so 3 players with your first 3 picks isn't bad.
Edit: mixed up Mac's draft. Still, 2 players out of 3 picks in the first 3 rounds isn't bad.
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This is also why trying to make assessments of drafts before you're even through the first contract just isn't worth it. At the end of last year, we thought we had two defensive Joneses who could play important roles, a solid guard, and that one of the RBs would emerge as a backup to Mondre. Let’s give it a few years so we don’t have to declare great victory or failure for a draft every other year.
My mistake, but a pick who has started most games in his first two seasons is not a bad pick and Marcus Jones, so hitting on two of your first 3 picks is not bad.
Marcus Jones in 2022:
- All-Pro special teams player, led NFL in average punt return yardage
- Opponents' passing on Jones: 24 comp, 41 targets, 58.5% completion, 361 yds, 8.8 yds/tgt, 1 td, 2 int, 75.4 rating - really solid
- On offense: 4 targets, 4 receptions, 78 yds, 19.5 yds/rec, 1 td
That's a hell of a rookie performance. He's a damned good player. Too bad he got hurt this year. I expect good things from him in 2024.
- All-Pro special teams player, led NFL in average punt return yardage
- Opponents' passing on Jones: 24 comp, 41 targets, 58.5% completion, 361 yds, 8.8 yds/tgt, 1 td, 2 int, 75.4 rating - really solid
- On offense: 4 targets, 4 receptions, 78 yds, 19.5 yds/rec, 1 td
That's a hell of a rookie performance. He's a damned good player. Too bad he got hurt this year. I expect good things from him in 2024.
I agree that not great is a reasonable assessment. Seems like statistics are catching up to Bill it seems. The team probably got the median outcome from each of three 4th rounders, three 6th rounders, and one 7th from that draft. Problem was that they needed someone to exceed that; hasn't happened yet, and only Zappe and Sam Roberts remain from that group.
Marcus Jones will likely be a good pick. The Strange pick will be debated ad nauseum on this board for years to come. Thornton, unfortunately, is looking like a serious bust. Granted, bust rates on 2nd rounders are higher than many realize, but that was a pick that needed to be a hit.
Good point. People declare victory or failure RIGHT AFTER THE DRAFT though, before they even put on a practice uniform for the team. It's insane. LOL
Mike Mamula started every game but one through his first three seasons in the league. Starting does not make you good - there are bad players all over the league, and bad teams start lots and lots of bad players, particularly draft picks.
We are not talking about some raw, toolsy project who beat out a quality veteran. Cole Strange was a 24 year old rookie guard who was in college for six years with over 40 starts and the competition was Ted Karras. Anything other than starting on day one was not an option. Strange isn't terrible by any means but he just as certainly does not yet even qualify as good. He horribly misreads stunts and gap play, and gets overpowered by strong rushers.
I am at the belief you don’t take guards in round 1 unless they are Zach Martin or John Hannah types. Patriots got Joe Thuney in the third round and Shaq Mason in the 4th round.
It's fun to discuss, but obviously we can't truly assess a draft classes value until several years after they were picked.
I will say that I find "started a lot of games" a poor criteria for declaring a pick to be good. I determined that way back in the 80s regarding one Kenneth Sims.
I will say that I find "started a lot of games" a poor criteria for declaring a pick to be good. I determined that way back in the 80s regarding one Kenneth Sims.
True, but if you’ve only got a few guys left less than two years after the draft (and the roster is mediocre), not a great sign. Of course, a lot of the so called experts graded the Pats 22 draft as bad from the get go.
For sure. I suppose one can grade a draft as poor within a year or two if most of the guys have already washed out.
Reminder that sometimes it is entirely the player's fault, no matter how much we want to blame the coaches.
Jack Jones has a long and recent history of being a complete shithead. He had reported attitude problems over the last several weeks, was given one final chance to straighten up, and didn't do it.
He won't be missed.
He won't be missed.
they also got Mankins in the first and Froholdt, Jackson and Ohrnberger in the 4th.
when you have a statue at quarterback, having good guards should be a bit higher priority than if your QB can make plays outside the pocket. We all saw Brady’s worst games were almost always when interior pressure disrupted him. Given Jones is only marginally more mobile than Brady, and the hit rate of any mid/late round pick is low, I can understand wanting to take a guard earlier than maybe some other teams would.
not saying Strange was the right guy (or wrong guy) but the “well you can find them later in the draft” mentality doesn’t really make sense to me. That’s true of virtually every position. Take enough shots and a few will probably work out. The issue being that taking enough shots takes years of drafting and they wanted to build a quality interior line around Jones.
the All Pro guards in 2022 were drafted 35th, 14th, 16th and 78 (Thuney). Looking through the highest graded OL in the league and most of the best guards in the league are 1st/2nd round picks with a few late round/UDFA guys as you’d expect (and a number of the best guards are highly drafted tackle conversions). It’s not like the league is littered with high quality guards who come from rounds 3-7. There are some of course simply because a lot of guys get drafted and a few are going to pan out
going back to 2020 (using the “it takes a few years to figure out if a guy is good” notion), there were 17 guards drafted and only the first 3 taken have been multi-year starters (Onwenu also but many of his starts are at tackle). For 2019, 16 drafted (including Elgton Jenkins who was a center conversion) and only 5 are current starters, 4 of whom were 1st/2nd round picks (Ben Powers is the exception). It’s a devalued position but not one where it’s easy to plug and play later round picks into your lineup.
there’s an argument to be made that 1st round picks should only be spent on the most premium positions (LT, QB, EDGE, WR, CB) but relying on low value, low hit rate draft picks to fill OL holes is always high risk. It’s not easy to hide a hole on the OL the way you can at off ball LB, RB or even TE. Especially if your QB needs to be able to step up into the pocket and can’t move well.
You can't complain that the QB needs weapons then bitch that they took a guard in the late first round.
I think the hate on Strange has been vastly overblown. He had a bad injury in training camp that he's been playing through and lately he has been playing much better. They tried to give Mac help because Mac can't run. It hasn't worked primarily because Mac can't throw either.
I think the hate on Strange has been vastly overblown. He had a bad injury in training camp that he's been playing through and lately he has been playing much better. They tried to give Mac help because Mac can't run. It hasn't worked primarily because Mac can't throw either.
It seems to me that Jack Jones is exactly the type of guy to take a shot in in the 4th round. Starting talent but a major red flag. Didn’t work out but I don’t think it’s indicative of bad drafting to take a risk on a guy with high upside but one major flaw (character, medical, one deficient physical trait, low quality of competition etc).
the problem with the 2022 draft class, or strategy, was that almost everyone they drafted was very low floor relative to their draft slot. And they’ve gotten worst case outcomes for mostly everyone.
the problem with the 2022 draft class, or strategy, was that almost everyone they drafted was very low floor relative to their draft slot. And they’ve gotten worst case outcomes for mostly everyone.
Of course he is. He protects a QB who cannot run at all, if he's good. They gave Mac a weapon, just a different one than the fans demanded, even though those same fans complain that the Pats are bad at picking WRs.
I find your hatred of Mac Jones incredible annoying sometimes, but this made me laugh.
I don't think people usually think of guards as 'weapons'. WR, TE, maybe even LT.
That's kind of my point. Weapons can be more than just what fans think of them.
If the Pats had drafted a clone of John Hannah, wouldn't that be considered a huge weapon that could help the team win? Any coach or player would certainly think so. Fans have to learn the same.
Claimed by the Raiders.
View: https://twitter.com/mikegarafolo/status/1724535303833063935?s=46&t=ZAV_cHcUClrN1Zdq09T1Aw
View: https://twitter.com/mikegarafolo/status/1724535303833063935?s=46&t=ZAV_cHcUClrN1Zdq09T1Aw
The Raider Way!
Who knows, he wouldn’t be the first player to get it together after an erratic college and NFL career, but smart money would be against it. The combo of legal problems, a reliability/attitude problem, and offering good but certainly not great talent/productivity isn’t super-alluring.
Who knows, he wouldn’t be the first player to get it together after an erratic college and NFL career, but smart money would be against it. The combo of legal problems, a reliability/attitude problem, and offering good but certainly not great talent/productivity isn’t super-alluring.
yeah I don't think of guards as weapons, but I also think people who talk about "Weapons" to help the QB are taking very narrow fantasy football views. A good O-line is way more important to QB success than WRs. One only need look at CIN to see that... maybe the best WR corps in the league. Offense was pure dogshit when they had line issues (or on the flip side KC who has 1 weapon, but a good O-line such that Juju and company look just fine as a SB winning WR corps)
I didn’t realize the connection to Pierce. Sounds like he certainly got what he wanted.
Time to start the tampering rumors! The Pats need as much draft capital as they can get…
Biggest risk for Belichick over the remaining games is losing the locker room. The last couple of weeks certainly have a mutiny feel to them.
Time to start the tampering rumors! The Pats need as much draft capital as they can get…
Biggest risk for Belichick over the remaining games is losing the locker room. The last couple of weeks certainly have a mutiny feel to them.
Good thing that he's going to a market that presents very few off-the-field distractions. He can spend his downtime completely ensconced in the sanctuary of prayer, self-reflection and intellectual inquiry.
Offense was pure dogshit when they had Burrow injury issues. The line was bad when they were a ticky tacky call away from winning the Super Bowl.
The problem is we can already close the book on a bunch of these guys (Jack Jones, Pierre Strong, Tyquan, all the late-rounders) and it looks pretty awful.
Jones played some at the end of the year when Mills and Jack Jones were hurt. The jury is still very much out on him as a defensive contributor. A good chance he turns out to be just a really good returner who can occasionally matchup on D. That's not bad for a third-rounder, but the problem is he's at worst the second-best player from that class.
Karras was gone! There was no competition (which only adds to your point). I agree with your overall assessment; Strange is inconsistent, which makes him a disappointing pick as a first round IOL.
Saves the Raiders some payroll expense too since Jones comes with his own guns.
It’s a good move for Pierce, who needs short-term success to make his case for the gig. Jones will probably show up with “this might be me last chance” energy in the short term.
In the end, I expect Pierce’s tenure at Las Vegas will be like his tenure at ASU. Come in like blazing hot comet, then leave the program worse than when he arrived.
In the end, I expect Pierce’s tenure at Las Vegas will be like his tenure at ASU. Come in like blazing hot comet, then leave the program worse than when he arrived.
He's not entirely wrong, but can make it all go away if he just stops talking about it.
