Jrue the Damaja

BaseballJones

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Marcus Smart: 30.3 min, 11.9 fga, .430 fg, .313 3ptfg, 14.5 points, 2.7 rebounds, 4.3 assists, 99 o rating, 112 d rating
Jrue Holiday: 33.8 min, 11.0 fga, .456 fg, .420 3ptfg, 13.3 points, 6.3 rebounds, 4.6 assists, 117 o rating, 112 d rating

Does anyone here actually miss Marcus Smart?

They ended up losing Smart, Grant Williams, and Rob Williams and adding Holiday and Porzingis and it's been a huge upgrade.
 

the moops

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Marcus Smart: 30.3 min, 11.9 fga, .430 fg, .313 3ptfg, 14.5 points, 2.7 rebounds, 4.3 assists, 99 o rating, 112 d rating
Jrue Holiday: 33.8 min, 11.0 fga, .456 fg, .420 3ptfg, 13.3 points, 6.3 rebounds, 4.6 assists, 117 o rating, 112 d rating

Does anyone here actually miss Marcus Smart?

They ended up losing Smart, Grant Williams, and Rob Williams and adding Holiday and Porzingis and it's been a huge upgrade.
+ Brogdon, Warriors 2024 first, Celtics 2029 unprotected first
 

PedroKsBambino

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I don't know anyone who feels like the overall swap of assets wasn't worth it for this year.

We will never know what the team would have been had Milwaukee not effectively routed Jrue to Celtics, though. There were plenty of uncertainty---here and among credible writers/analysts---about the non-Smart, non-Jrue version of the Celtics roster that never played a game. KP's spectacular fit would still have had a big impact, Brogdon would still be here, and TL would have played (at least some)....it just would have been a very different team.
 

lovegtm

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Leaving aside draft assets, and purely from a basketball standpoint, the Jrue upgrade over Marcus is so, so massive.
 

NomarsFool

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Interesting that All-Defense is chosen only by the media, right? I'd think some player and coach representation would make sense. They likely have a more informed opinion than the media - I'd say.
 

NomarsFool

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It's interesting how much other teams have had to pay to add an impact player, like Kawhi for example. Holiday isn't the same as Kawhi, but it was certainly a steep price that Indiana paid for that rental. The Celtics have been fleecing other teams lately, in my opinion.
 

InstaFace

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Does anyone here actually miss Marcus Smart?
I mean, yeah I "miss him", because he's so damn much fun to root for, he was drafted here and loves the city, and plays so hard, brings such an attitude to the game. He was Tommy's favorite for a reason, he was Loved and Trusted By All. If we get a ring (or rings) over the next few years in the Jays' prime, I'll be at least a little sad that he wasn't a part of it, because he deserved to be. The comeback in Houston that was capped off by his double drawn charges on Harden is among my favorite Celtics memories of the last decade, up there with Al Horford closing out the 2022 ECF, or IT4's King in the Fourth era. He's got a spot in my heart, and I suspect in most everyone's here. Those who hadn't been through the departures of Toine in 2003, or Perk, or Pierce and KG, were fully unprepared for the emotions of him departing.

But that's different than regretting the trade in the sober light of day, or not thinking Jrue is an upgrade, which no sane Celtics fan should do. Brad did the cold-blooded thing a good GM has to do, and we know it hurt him.

(it's also interesting to me, in a sliding-doors sort of way, that Smart almost declined his summer 2021 4-year extension to test free agency, which would've run the risk that he left us rather than got traded and we wouldn't have had the assets to assemble this roster today. Lots of bullets dodged along the way.)
 

bigq

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Jrue leads the NBA in Corner3% at 60.5% (not missing Grant one iota)

He is MORE than advertised. Found his way to impact winning even as an off-ball offensive cog.

CJM has also given Jrue the responsibility of quarterbacking the defense in zone OR having Jrue guard the opponents most dangerous 2-5 player.

Expecting a Jrue extension announced sometime in March.
The Dallas corner office may not be as cushy as the one in Boston. JH, SH, DW, AH, JB and PP are all converting corner threes at a higher rate than GW this season.

Grant's first season in Dallas has been a bit bumpy. Pretty much all of his counting rate stats and his advanced stats are down and he is no longer in the starting rotation. I hope he finds his way but I'm glad the Celtics did not re-sign him.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Leaving aside draft assets, and purely from a basketball standpoint, the Jrue upgrade over Marcus is so, so massive.
Karalis also mentioned on a podcast that he thinks Jrue stability/steadiness on the court is better for this version of the Cs than Smart's fiery temperament. Obviously no way of knowing but it's certainly interesting.

Two other ways that Jrue has improved the Cs. First, his ability to play out of the dunker's spot really brings another option for JT/JB/KP when they have the ball. Given the Cs size, Jrue isn't going to be guarded by a rim protector so him being down there doesn't really clog things up for the Jays/KP but gives them an outlet if they need it. Also, I think that the Cs have a lot more off-ball motion this year and I credit a lot of that to Jrue, as he doesn't just sit in the corner like Marcus used to do.

Finally, I'm glad I don't have to see anyone "walk the dog" on a regular basis on this team plus we don't have to talk about Smart's "hero shots" that he felt he had to take every so often.

Marcus was great to root for but Jrue is an upgrade. No shame in that.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Brogdon's defense was pretty terrible during the playoffs but maybe that wasn't on him. I definitely liked the KP trade more when it was the Brogdon version but getting Jrue on the follow clearly rounded things out nicely. From all reports, he was pretty happy in Milwaukee so its nice to see him appearing to fit in well with the team but its not surprising. He was the perfect last piece of the puzzle imo.
 

Auger34

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Brogdon's defense was pretty terrible during the playoffs but maybe that wasn't on him. I definitely liked the KP trade more when it was the Brogdon version but getting Jrue on the follow clearly rounded things out nicely. From all reports, he was pretty happy in Milwaukee so its nice to see him appearing to fit in well with the team but its not surprising. He was the perfect last piece of the puzzle imo.
I simultaneously think Brogdon was both overrated and underrated during the playoff run last year.

If he doesn't hurt himself, I think that we beat the Heat...however, his defense was atrocious and it didn't really sit well with me that he was the one talking about how the defensive performance needed to be better after
 

bakahump

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Yea Brogdons Playoff defense wasnt bad considering the fork that was sticking out his back. Havent watched him enough this year to know if someone pulled it. If so great. Fair winds Malcolm.....BTW have you met my new GF? Named Jrue and we are pretty serious.
 

InstaFace

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Double charge game was in Boston but well put. Crowd went nuts!
In a long line of Very Marcus moments, that was perhaps the Marcus-est.

Jrue doesn't throw himself around spectacularly like that, but not doing so keeps him healthier, and to boot, he misses assignments less, and gambles less. Lower variance, and higher expectation - the perfect investment.
 

lovegtm

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Jrue doesn't throw himself around spectacularly like that, but not doing so keeps him healthier, and to boot, he misses assignments less, and gambles less. Lower variance, and higher expectation - the perfect investment.
Agree, people know Jrue is good on defense, but they don't realize he's THAT good, because everything he does on that end is subtle but forceful.
 

jmcc5400

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Agree, people know Jrue is good on defense, but they don't realize he's THAT good, because everything he does on that end is subtle but forceful.
Jrue is the kind of player that you appreciate more and more if you have the opportunity to watch him night in and night out as we now do. For me - and everyone's mileage may vary - Brogdon was the opposite. Someone whom I thought highly of when we acquired him, but turned out to be less than I thought he was when I had the opportunity to watch him every night.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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In a long line of Very Marcus moments, that was perhaps the Marcus-est.

Jrue doesn't throw himself around spectacularly like that, but not doing so keeps him healthier, and to boot, he misses assignments less, and gambles less. Lower variance, and higher expectation - the perfect investment.
There’s no real way to quantify this but I also think the team has benefited from replacing Marcus not only with a Marcus+ but a version who is a calm, quiet leader instead of someone who fancied himself maybe The Alpha of the team.

Jrue, DW, and Al are all cut from a similar cloth. Before the season it was said that the moves make it clear whose team it is, which maybe created some uncertainty but the results speak for themselves. (Obviously, the talent improvement plays a big role here too.)
 

lovegtm

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Stars who take care of their bodies have such a good track record of aging well these past few years. The fact that his spot-up shooting is elite makes it an even easier decision. I'd sign a guy like Jrue to 4/130 and not even blink.
 

Ed Hillel

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Yeah, what's great about Jrue is that he's not really explosive or out of control, he's just incredibly precise, fluid, and cerebral in his technique. And he seems to have the body type that can last into his mid-late 30s. Smart, otoh, strikes me as a guy who is not going to age out well, and it seems that's already becoming evident.
 

bigq

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Not surprisingly, happy and wants a contract extension. Didn't know his wife had played soccer in the area before.

https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2024/01/jrue-holiday-reveals-free-agency-preference-after-celtics-trade.html
Somewhat related, he has shown some decent soccer skills on the basketball court. In last night's game during a stoppage in play he juggled a ball rolling to him on the floor and made a perfect instep pass to a ref standing 10 or so feet away from him. With his size, speed and athleticism he would be a menace on the pitch.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Somewhat related, he has shown some decent soccer skills on the basketball court. In last night's game during a stoppage in play he juggled a ball rolling to him on the floor and made a perfect instep pass to a ref standing 10 or so feet away from him. With his size, speed and athleticism he would be a menace on the pitch.
Its almost as if he has been nut-megged in both sports by both blood family members as well as those via matrimony.
 

Euclis20

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Holiday is shooting .658 from the left corner 3 and .667 from the right corner 3. This is 1st and 2nd respectively, among players with 20+ attempts (he's taken 38 shots from the left corner and 27 shots from the right corner). This probably won't last (he shot .451 from the corners last year and .343 the year before), but it's been devastating with the Celtics patience and strong passing.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8Zezfch0es
 

TomTerrific

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Holiday is shooting .658 from the left corner 3 and .667 from the right corner 3. This is 1st and 2nd respectively, among players with 20+ attempts (he's taken 38 shots from the left corner and 27 shots from the right corner). This probably won't last (he shot .451 from the corners last year and .343 the year before), but it's been devastating with the Celtics patience and strong passing.
Out of curiosity, where do you find corner 3 shooting stats? I looked around on google and BR and couldn’t find them
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Holiday is shooting .658 from the left corner 3 and .667 from the right corner 3. This is 1st and 2nd respectively, among players with 20+ attempts (he's taken 38 shots from the left corner and 27 shots from the right corner). This probably won't last (he shot .451 from the corners last year and .343 the year before), but it's been devastating with the Celtics patience and strong passing.
I can't find the best single season corner 3P % but just by way of reference, Steve Kerr at 45.4% but according to BRef, though he did hit 50% of his corner 3Ps in his first season, he was never over that.

Klay in 2014-15 hit 52% of his corner 3Ps.

Jrue's numbers, however, are insane. In his recent interview with Abby, he did mention that most of his looks are wide-open because of the factors you mention.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=best+all-time+corner+3-point+shooting+percentage
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Out of curiosity, where do you find corner 3 shooting stats? I looked around on google and BR and couldn’t find them
BRef has the corner 3P% totals but doesn't break them out into right side and left side like NBA.com. It's under "Shooting." In the spoiler you'll see Jrue's BRef page that has his %s broken out by year.

78927
Do you know where you can find above the break 3s that are Left & Right of the Center?

My eyes tell me Tatum shoots better from the left side of the floor from 3
This site - https://3stepsbasket.com/player/jayson-tatum/shooting - has Tatum's shot chart from this year. Not sure how accurate it is.

78928
 

benhogan

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BRef has the corner 3P% totals but doesn't break them out into right side and left side like NBA.com. It's under "Shooting." In the spoiler you'll see Jrue's BRef page that has his %s broken out by year.


This site - https://3stepsbasket.com/player/jayson-tatum/shooting - has Tatum's shot chart from this year. Not sure how accurate it is.

View attachment 78928
Thanks Wade. It's noticeable, Scal has brought it up a few times.

I've been harping on Tatum's Pull-Up3s (33%) VS. his Catch & Shoot 3s (43%)
when it's all about firing 3s ATB on the left side of the floor (44%)

Maybe C&S 3s from the left side of ATB unleashes Tatums' best self :cool:
 

Kliq

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Probably says something about Jrue that his brothers, despite not being particularly notable or exciting players, have carved out pretty lengthy careers for themselves. Aaron Holiday (now in Houston) is in his sixth season, while Justin Holiday (Denver) is in year 11. Between the three of them, the Holiday's have played over 2,000 NBA games. That's a hell of family accomplishment.
 

lovegtm

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Probably says something about Jrue that his brothers, despite not being particularly notable or exciting players, have carved out pretty lengthy careers for themselves. Aaron Holiday (now in Houston) is in his sixth season, while Justin Holiday (Denver) is in year 11. Between the three of them, the Holiday's have played over 2,000 NBA games. That's a hell of family accomplishment.
Maybe it's because I'm used to most NBA brothers being twins (which is an interesting nature+nurture-working-together topic on its own), but the Holiday brothers always stood out to me in how different they look from each other facially and physically and in play style.

If you take LaMelo and Lonzo, they look different, but their body types are very similar, and you can see a lot of the same influences in their games.
 

InstaFace

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...
Anyways, Jrue deal worked out magically. PDX did well under the circumstances so didn't feel it was a classic heist. PDX really should have moved Brogdon/TL to someone like Miami at the time and kept on adding draft assets. If you're going to tank, may as well go full speed ahead
This I agree with, Portland did fine - it's that we basically heisted the entire league, beating them to the punch on an obviously available Jrue. Nobody moreso than the Bucks, clearly.
I think Miami is really the team that missed out. I don't know if they were still reeling from missing out on Dame or if Portland would even take the time to deal with Riley, but Jrue would've fit perfectly into their lineup, in a way that Rozier does not. He's basically a younger, bigger version of Kyle Lowry.
So this is an interesting question (from the KP thread, or one of them) that belongs over here. What other teams could reasonably have benefitted from acquiring Jrue, and missed out? Miami, certainly, is one of them. But from my perspective the answer is "basically any real contender". He's one of the very best defensive guards in the league, you can argue him to be #1. He has an above-average offensive skillset, and obviously is sinking corner 3s this year like a robot. He fits in perfectly even with super ball dominant teammates, because he's not an alpha scorer and his value isn't tied up in being such.

Should be interested:
- Miami, duh
- Minnesota: He's clearly better than Mike Conley at this point in the latter's career, imo.
- Dallas: They desperately need a guard who plays D and isn't a black hole on offense
- Lakers: Reaves can be PG if you wanted to upgrade D'Angelo Russell to Jrue
- Clippers: This might be one of the only real ways you could upgrade the present Clippers starting lineup. Terence Mann is their only weak link, with a negative on/off (career: 0.0)
- Phoenix: They have all the shooting they could want, but they need someone playing D next to Booker, and Grayson Allen is fine as a stopgap but Jrue would be a huge upgrade.
- Indiana: They traded away Hield, and now are more or less starting Nembhard at the 2. They are a defensive sieve.
- OKC: They're starting Josh Giddey, a meaningfully below-average player, despite getting great play at the 2 from Isaiah Joe for a minimum contract (plus team option next year). Upgrading Giddey to Jrue would be huge, if they could pay him.
- He fit in pretty well on Milwaukee, you'd have to say, and Malik Beasley just isn't getting it done - he's historically been a sub-zero DARKO player, just cracking positive numbers in the last few games.

Contenders who wouldn't be fits:
- Cleveland: Donovan Mitchell is technically a 2, you can play him as the PG but they have a staggering amount of money tied up in Darius Garland. So probably not a fit as you'd probably make him into a small-ball 3.
- Knicks: DiVincenzo is signed for 4 more years at incredibly reasonable money (~$11M / yr) for what they're getting out of him
- Philly: You can argue De'Anthony Melton is giving them 75% of Jrue at 25% the price ($8M)

I thought his market should have been piping hot, from teams who could frankly a lot more than we could.
 

lovegtm

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So this is an interesting question (from the KP thread, or one of them) that belongs over here. What other teams could reasonably have benefitted from acquiring Jrue, and missed out? Miami, certainly, is one of them. But from my perspective the answer is "basically any real contender". He's one of the very best defensive guards in the league, you can argue him to be #1. He has an above-average offensive skillset, and obviously is sinking corner 3s this year like a robot. He fits in perfectly even with super ball dominant teammates, because he's not an alpha scorer and his value isn't tied up in being such.

Should be interested:
- Miami, duh
- Minnesota: He's clearly better than Mike Conley at this point in the latter's career, imo.
- Dallas: They desperately need a guard who plays D and isn't a black hole on offense
- Lakers: Reaves can be PG if you wanted to upgrade D'Angelo Russell to Jrue
- Clippers: This might be one of the only real ways you could upgrade the present Clippers starting lineup. Terence Mann is their only weak link, with a negative on/off (career: 0.0)
- Phoenix: They have all the shooting they could want, but they need someone playing D next to Booker, and Grayson Allen is fine as a stopgap but Jrue would be a huge upgrade.
- Indiana: They traded away Hield, and now are more or less starting Nembhard at the 2. They are a defensive sieve.
- OKC: They're starting Josh Giddey, a meaningfully below-average player, despite getting great play at the 2 from Isaiah Joe for a minimum contract (plus team option next year). Upgrading Giddey to Jrue would be huge, if they could pay him.
- He fit in pretty well on Milwaukee, you'd have to say, and Malik Beasley just isn't getting it done - he's historically been a sub-zero DARKO player, just cracking positive numbers in the last few games.

Contenders who wouldn't be fits:
- Cleveland: Donovan Mitchell is technically a 2, you can play him as the PG but they have a staggering amount of money tied up in Darius Garland. So probably not a fit as you'd probably make him into a small-ball 3.
- Knicks: DiVincenzo is signed for 4 more years at incredibly reasonable money (~$11M / yr) for what they're getting out of him
- Philly: You can argue De'Anthony Melton is giving them 75% of Jrue at 25% the price ($8M)

I thought his market should have been piping hot, from teams who could frankly a lot more than we could.
Nice writeup. Out of those teams, the ones that become scary/terrifying with Jrue are, in order
- OKC: dear lord they'd be good
- Lakers: title contender, especially with how LeBron's balco shit at age 39
- Miami: I still don't understand why this deal didn't happen

Teams that would have been amazing but that didn't have the assets:
- Minnesota: might be the title favorite with him, but they had emptied the cupboard already for Gobert
- LAC: not enough to get both Harden and Jrue
- Dallas: this is where messing up with Brunson is killer. They would have had enough to get Jrue, but the Kyrie trade used up assets to replace Brunson
 

benhogan

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So this is an interesting question (from the KP thread, or one of them) that belongs over here. What other teams could reasonably have benefitted from acquiring Jrue, and missed out? Miami, certainly, is one of them. But from my perspective the answer is "basically any real contender". He's one of the very best defensive guards in the league, you can argue him to be #1. He has an above-average offensive skillset, and obviously is sinking corner 3s this year like a robot. He fits in perfectly even with super ball dominant teammates, because he's not an alpha scorer and his value isn't tied up in being such.

Should be interested:
- Miami, duh
- Minnesota: He's clearly better than Mike Conley at this point in the latter's career, imo.
- Dallas: They desperately need a guard who plays D and isn't a black hole on offense
- Lakers: Reaves can be PG if you wanted to upgrade D'Angelo Russell to Jrue
- Clippers: This might be one of the only real ways you could upgrade the present Clippers starting lineup. Terence Mann is their only weak link, with a negative on/off (career: 0.0)
- Phoenix: They have all the shooting they could want, but they need someone playing D next to Booker, and Grayson Allen is fine as a stopgap but Jrue would be a huge upgrade.
- Indiana: They traded away Hield, and now are more or less starting Nembhard at the 2. They are a defensive sieve.
- OKC: They're starting Josh Giddey, a meaningfully below-average player, despite getting great play at the 2 from Isaiah Joe for a minimum contract (plus team option next year). Upgrading Giddey to Jrue would be huge, if they could pay him.
- He fit in pretty well on Milwaukee, you'd have to say, and Malik Beasley just isn't getting it done - he's historically been a sub-zero DARKO player, just cracking positive numbers in the last few games.

Contenders who wouldn't be fits:
- Cleveland: Donovan Mitchell is technically a 2, you can play him as the PG but they have a staggering amount of money tied up in Darius Garland. So probably not a fit as you'd probably make him into a small-ball 3.
- Knicks: DiVincenzo is signed for 4 more years at incredibly reasonable money (~$11M / yr) for what they're getting out of him
- Philly: You can argue De'Anthony Melton is giving them 75% of Jrue at 25% the price ($8M)

I thought his market should have been piping hot, from teams who could frankly a lot more than we could.
Brad was incredibly prepared to pounce (also on KP). He has spoken about there being a pretty limited # of players with the salary size to make the Dame trade work, so they were ready to move Brogdon if the right player became available. There were a few posters in the KP trade thread that mentioned MB + draft picks would be moved by the deadline to upgrade the roster.

Lillard’s move to Milwaukee meant an opportunity for the Celtics and other contenders around the league to add top-tier talent.

“As time went on, I think we all became a little bit more wondering if Portland was going to end up getting somebody that they would then move on from as a result of moving Dame. So, we were monitoring it like the rest of the league,” Stevens said
.

https://www.celticsblog.com/2023/10/2/23899741/boston-celtics-brad-stevens-jrue-holiday-trade-robert-williams-malcolm-brogdon-joe-mazzulla
 

benhogan

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Nice writeup. Out of those teams, the ones that become scary/terrifying with Jrue are, in order
- OKC: dear lord they'd be good
- Lakers: title contender, especially with how LeBron's balco shit at age 39
- Miami: I still don't understand why this deal didn't happen

Teams that would have been amazing but that didn't have the assets:
- Minnesota: might be the title favorite with him, but they had emptied the cupboard already for Gobert
- LAC: not enough to get both Harden and Jrue
- Dallas: this is where messing up with Brunson is killer. They would have had enough to get Jrue, but the Kyrie trade used up assets to replace Brunson
If OKC had offered filler + Giddey + pick they probably could have landed Holiday...whew

OKC will be a thorn in the Celtics' side for the next 5 seasons. They could have a big summer by combining players with picks and build around SGA/J-Dub/Holmgren
 

HomeRunBaker

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If OKC had offered filler + Giddey + pick they probably could have landed Holiday...whew

OKC will be a thorn in the Celtics' side for the next 5 seasons. They could have a big summer by combining players with picks and build around SGA/J-Dub/Holmgren
You think so? Their core will still have not reached their late 20’s at the end of that 5-year window and the Thunder have all of those WC landmines to get through. We only see them twice a year unless this is The Finals matchup. It’s probably going to take them several years as we’ve historically seen with real good young teams.
 

benhogan

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You think so? Their core will still have not reached their late 20’s at the end of that 5-year window and the Thunder have all of those WC landmines to get through. We only see them twice a year unless this is The Finals matchup. It’s probably going to take them several years as we’ve historically seen with real good young teams.
SGA is a legit TOP8 superstar. J-Dub/Holmgren are leaping every few months. It's been impressive, those two will be cusp All-Stars by next season. Right?

Just need a few vets (not the Hayward, Biyombo types). This is the Summer they should go get a Markkanen or get one of Allen or Mobley after the Cavs flame out in Round 1. Go get Alex Caruso with a couple of late picks.

They have a bunch of young pieces & draft picks to build around SGA/J-Dub/Chet.
 

lovegtm

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SGA is a legit TOP8 superstar. J-Dub/Holmgren are leaping every few months. It's been impressive, those two will be cusp All-Stars by next season. Right?

Just need a few vets (not the Hayward, Biyombo types). This is the Summer they should go get a Markkanen or get one of Allen or Mobley after the Cavs flame out in Round 1. Go get Alex Caruso with a couple of late picks.

They have a bunch of young pieces & draft picks to build around SGA/J-Dub/Chet.
One thing I will say: we'll never know whether OKC was on Jrue's list, and they may well not have been.

If you're going to go get an elite vet, you want some guarantee he'll be with the team past the nearly inevitable "first time in the playoffs" flameout.
 

benhogan

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One thing I will say: we'll never know whether OKC was on Jrue's list, and they may well not have been.

If you're going to go get an elite vet, you want some guarantee he'll be with the team past the nearly inevitable "first time in the playoffs" flameout.
This last part of building a Championship team is where Brad/Zaren have excelled.
Turning over the entire roster (ex-Jays/PP) in 2.5 years

The big question is will their ownership let Presti chase expensive vets like Jrue & be willing to greenlight huge CAP taxes OR just hope the youngsters put them over the top?