Just how good was Nomar Garciaparra?
- Thread starter BaseballJones
- Start date
Looks like 2000 Pedro and Nomar is the best.
https://stacker.com/massachusetts/boston/best-duos-boston-red-sox-history
https://stacker.com/massachusetts/boston/best-duos-boston-red-sox-history
No, the Bledsoe comparison sucks. I never used DrewNE11 as my password but Nomah05! worked for many years. Drew was never thought of as a HoF candidate "only if" like Nomar is, Drew didn't capture the imagination of a Nation. I understand the original comparison, but let's not legitimize it with affirmation. "I know Nomar and you, sir, are no Nomar!"
He fell short of the HoF, but I do love that Nomar's OPS (.882 v .817) and BA (.313 v .310) eclipse his calm-eyed rival from New York.
Seriously? Drew was absolutely on a HoF pace before he almost got killed by that Mo Lewis hit. At least that what most people seemed to think at the time.
Uh, no. If you had said "after 1997" I would have agreed with you. If you said after 1998 I may have agreed with you. But after 2000?
After the 1996 Super Bowl season:
1997: 28 TD / 15 INT
1998: 20 / 14
1999: 19 / 21
2000: 17 / 13
Total: 84 / 63
Mo Lewis
2002: 24 / 15
2003: 11 / 12
2004: 20 / 16
2005: 23 / 17
Total: 78 / 60
I mean, he was more or less the same guy in 2002-2005 and as he was in 97-00. The hit in no way derailed his career. He just wasn't that good.
Edit: passer rating from 97-00: 80.3. Passer rating from 2002-2005: 80.3
Yes I agree Drew at one point was looking like a possible HOFer but I think the prospects of that were already diminishing significantly by 2001 as he had not looked as good in 1999/2000 as the 1994-1998 years.
edit: @tims4wins beat me to the Bledsoe commentary
But in defense of @Sin Duda, peak Bledsoe was not in the same tier as peak Nomar. Peak Nomar was basically a 6 year stretch (1997-2003 sans 2001 injury) where he accumulated 43 WAR which is on par or even slightly better than the average 6 year peak of HOF shortstops.
The Patriots kinda sucked in those years. Everything Carroll learned to do right at USC
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Bledsoe’s first year in Buffalo was actually pretty damned good..esp when adjusting for the weather there (worse than Foxborough and ‘02 was a snowy Nov/Dec there)….and the Bills came out banging in early 2003 to where everyone was considering them Super Bowl contenders. IIRC they absolutely waxed the Patriots 31-0 early that year in Buffalo…hard to believe considering the eventual fate of each team. Buffalo would completely unravel and NE wouldn’t lose again after week 2 I think?
The 31-0 game was week 1. And yes, everyone had the Bills in the Super Bowl. And no, the Pats didn't lose again after week 4 (they were 2-2).
Bledsoe was a fine QB for the vast majority of his career. From 94-97 or so, he was pretty good, and his age and improvement over that period of time had everyone wishing big things for him. But he never remotely had a stretch like Nomar from 98-00, when he was one of the best hitters on the planet.
The actual quote that started this was:
I think he was. But NFL and MLB comparisons are apples to oranges at the best of times.
Yeah I mentioned further up that peak Nomar was insane. Even if you take his “shoulder seasons” (1997/2002/2003) with the peak years (1998-2000), that 6 year composite of roughly 43 WAR is slightly above average for a typical HOF shortstop’s best 6 year composite. He was an absolute beast.
Bledsoe never had that kind of peak. Your right that one of things that created so much excitement around Bledsoe was how young he was when he first started breaking out…only 22 years old in 1994. But he just never got to that next upper tier level beyond those good years.
I liked Bledsoe, but he was 63-60 with the Patriots. 56% completion rate, 166 TD, 138 INT. He was never on track for the HOF.
Bledsoe was considered one of the leading MVP candidates halfway through the 1999 season before the wheels completely fell off in the second half (which continued through 2000). Up to that point he was definitely on a HoF track.
I enjoyed that so much. I was at 3 and 4, and Game 5 is probably my single favorite game of the pre-2004 era.
I only got into baseball around 2000, so I didn't see too much of prime Nomar. Still, I remember him being a very dynamic player (with a very long batting windup!). Would have been great if we won the WS in 2004 with him on the team, but it doesn't seem like it would have happened but for trading him for O. Cab.
This reminded me of a few posts earlier in this thread talking about best Red Sox duos in team history….
Game 5 is probably one of the best encapsulations of peak Nomar/Pedro…ironically too because Pedro was not 100% that game, but peak Pedro could no-hit a monster lineup with multiple HOFers for 6 innings without his best fastball. And of course, Nomar terrorized them that series to the point after the 2-run HR in the top 1st inning, they just started walking him. Then when they decide to pitch to him again with a runner on in 9th, he hits a missile off the left field wall for an insurance RBI double.
Game 4 was also an incredible "surprised by joy" kind of game. It's kind of hard for younger fans to contextualize this now, but the '90s were mostly a pretty bleak time in Boston sports - we certainly never *expected* to win at that point. Since Game 5 of the 1986 WS, the Sox had gone 3-16 in their last 19 postseason games, including 3-7 against what seemed to be a much better Cleveland team. Pedro had been injured in Game 1. Cleveland had Colon, a young stud, on the mound. And then the Sox ERUPTED - every ball seemed to be off the wall or over it. Valentin and his heavy pull swing had an out of body experience. 23 runs in an elimination game. Pure joy and, of course, it set up the scintillating Game 5.
My old man passed in 2000.
He told me his top five Sox he'd seen play.
Ruth
Foxx
Williams
Yaz
Nomar
He told me his top five Sox he'd seen play.
Ruth
Foxx
Williams
Yaz
Nomar
I'll always regret not buying the Men's pink Pokey shirt that was available in the pro shop for like 2 weeks.
I don’t think it’s been brought up yet, but Nomar was the ultimate intuitive hitter- a guy who saw it as an art (call-back to the Casas thread), by his own admission. A “see the ball-hit the ball” guy. Someone who is counting on being able to see and react that quickly I can also see crashing real quickly- eyesight, muscle-twitch, slightest thing can bump that see and react instinct off for good.
That's gotta be one of the greatest televised moments in baseball history. I get chills every time I watch it. Kudos to the announcers for letting the moment speak for itself.
I have never once watched this without crying, including that night in '99 and right fucking now.
I was there and had never seen the clip. I could barely hear Ted over Joe Buck. Age gets all of us, huh?
Same here. He was my hero as a little boy. I wanted to be just like him. I got the swearing part down real good.
They certainly had some junk on the staff, but it’s worth considering the context. League offense was ridiculous back then, and in that light the Sox had one of the best staffs in the league. Pedro accounted for a lot of it, but not everything. Their offense was actually pretty average, a lot of the apparently good hitting benefitted from park factors and they had absolute black holes in Darren Lewis and the rapidly deteriorating John Valentin, among others.
The '02 squad was maddening. Two of the best starting pitchers in the game (Lowe was dominant), two of the best hitters in the game and they seemed to just figure out ways to lose.... it was like they had a horrible manager or something....
F Barry Zito and his voters with a rusty sword
Zito : 2.75 ERA, 78 BB, 182 K, 1.134 WHIP
Pitcher B 2.26 ERA, 40 BB, 239 K, 0.923 WHIP
Pitcher C 2.58 ERA, 0.974 WHIP
They started 40-17! I remember thinking at the time that even if they only played .500 ball the rest of the year, they'd win 90+ games, and surely they would play better than .500 the rest of the way.
Narrator: they did not, of course, play better than .500 the rest of the way. They got swept at home by the defending champion D-Backs, and went 53-52 to finish 93-69.
At 4:35 you can see where Ted asks McGwire if he ever smelled wood burn after he fouled one off.
Will go back and look at it. I know he liked to ask it of guys who had great bat speed. Some guys would look back at him like he was crazy!
I guess I wasn't clear. Based on the 40-17 start, I figured they were a lock for upper 90s.
Of course, IIRC the WC winner won over 100, so the Sox probably weren't making the playoffs that year anyway.
Edit: the Angels won 99 games to win the WC.
I distinctly remember Harold Reynolds talking about it afterwards. He said that it was a conversation that took place way above his talent level. Great moment in a clip of great moments. It's insane the talent that was on the field in uniform for that All-Star Game.
And to be honest, I actually posted it before you asked. Precisely what I was looking for in that clip...
Even though Pedro is my favorite athlete of all time, regardless of sport, the only Red Sox jersey I own is #9.
That was the year I was in Georgetown for the summer, walking by 1789 4x a day, and missed that. Did get to see a WWC USA QF defeat of Germany though but regret listening to my college advisor.
Zito was phenomenal that year. 229.1 innings pitched as well. And of course, it was the W-L record that did it - 23-5. He was absolutely a CYA winning caliber pitcher that year.
Of course, Pedro was better. Fewer innings, but far, far better in everything else. Lowe was actually better too as you pointed out. But no shade should be thrown to Zito - he was absolutely terrific that season.
You want to know who had it rough that year? Curt Schilling.
23-7, 3.23 era, 0.97 whip, 316 k, 11.0 k/9
And didn't win the CYA.
Thanks to his teammate who did this: 24-5, 2.32 era, 1.03 whip, 334 k, 11.6 k/9.
23-7, 3.23 era, 0.97 whip, 316 k, 11.0 k/9
And didn't win the CYA.
Thanks to his teammate who did this: 24-5, 2.32 era, 1.03 whip, 334 k, 11.6 k/9.