Am I the only old fart who remembers the Ted Stepien years?Cavs will be a mess for a long time after LeBron leaves.
Am I the only old fart who remembers the Ted Stepien years?Cavs will be a mess for a long time after LeBron leaves.
You certainly are not.Am I the only old fart who remembers the Ted Stepien years?
The man who acquired the legendary Don Ford from the Lakers for an unprotected first rounder which (predictably) ended up being #1 overall pick that landed the Lakers some guy named James Worthy.Am I the only old fart who remembers the Ted Stepien years?
I was alive but too young to remember it, but it was constantly referenced to in games during the 90's.Am I the only old fart who remembers the Ted Stepien years?
Are there any other logical possibilities for his landing spot? Teams with cap room where he'd actually go?Something just hit me, we may never see LBJ in the finals again. We will smoke Cleveland in the ECF this year, I don't care what the books say (people are really sleeping on how good Gordon Hayward is) and if the King is going to play out his days in LA with Lavars kid and PG, that is not enough to come out of the west.
That was the print era of following sports. As a kid and sports nut I got The Sporting News in the mail. All the old columnist ripped him apart. Was he the owner that used to shoot hoops by himself after games for hours at a time?Am I the only old fart who remembers the Ted Stepien years?
This is bad precedent on so many levelsCleveland would have been better off taking nothing. As a wise man once said, the whole world is laughing at them.
You answered the question yourself. The holdup wasn't really about IT's health or when he will be ready, it was about Gilberts concern with how this trade would be perceived (from the previously cited O'Connor article from the RingerThis whole thing is nonsensical, which makes me think it was being driven by Gilbert. If Thomas really is finished for the year, then how does a 2nd round pick fix that? And if he isn't, then why bother trying to extract more?
Multiple sources with knowledge of Gilbert’s mind-set believe the Cavs owner cares deeply about how the deal will be seen today and in the future, both internally and across the league
Is that true though? No question, every team would love to have Lebron. But I don't think there are a lot of teams out there (other than Golden State) that could offer a package of players and picks that wouldn't leave them bereft of talent to take advantage of getting Lebron. Maybe the Sixers (Fultz/Simmons, Saric, salary filler plus whatever picks don't go to the Celtics). Wolves could trade everyone but Butler and KAT but don't have much in the way of extra picks. When things started going sideways in Cleveland I thought the celtics should have jumped in prior to the draft. There were some player combos plus the two unprotected Brooklyn picks that would have been a nice haul for Cleveland to start the rebuild, even before dealing Love and/or Kylie.Cleveland would be so much better off blowing it all up at this point. Imagine the haul they could get for LBJ (even with the trade protection) and Love. That's what Danny would do - Ainge is a cold hearted killer.
Except that everyone in the media thinks the Cavs did well to get as much as they did. And tanking Thomas' reputation by publicly speculating that he may be finished as an elite player certainly does not help on the PR front.You answered the question yourself. The holdup wasn't really about IT's health or when he will be ready, it was about Gilberts concern with how this trade would be perceived (from the previously cited O'Connor article from the Ringer
I agree with this and especially think the bolded part bears watching now that he is back at ESPN and the Celtics are back as a top-tier teamI actually don't think Altman looks that bad here. It's pretty obvious Gilbert was the one holding this up. It's also pretty obvious that Gilbert was the one leaking all of this info to Woj which helps explain why Woj looked like a schizo amateur reporting on this trade the last week (it didn't help that Woj seemingly has no Celtics sources)
If Thomas is healthy for the playoffs Cleveland is an improved team. If Cleveland trades the Nets 18' pick for an impact player (and Thomas is healthy for the playoffs) it is a much improved team with a chance to win a championship.Cleveland would be so much better off blowing it all up at this point. Imagine the haul they could get for LBJ (even with the trade protection) and Love. That's what Danny would do - Ainge is a cold hearted killer.
This. This. This.Something just hit me, we may never see LBJ in the finals again. We will smoke Cleveland in the ECF this year, I don't care what the books say (people are really sleeping on how good Gordon Hayward is) and if the King is going to play out his days in LA with Lavars kid and PG, that is not enough to come out of the west.
You clearly owe the AI GM an apology for comparing it to Dan Gilbert.Kind of feel like this is completing a video game trade...throwing in useless asset to make AI GM agree.
Well said. Also the big takeaway here is the Celtics primary competition in the East is imploding. Over/Under on LeBron finals appearances the rest of his career might be 1.5. And I'd take the under. Amazing.I'm so glad that Danny essentially told Gilbert to go to hell, but I can't help feeling bad for Isaiah after all of this. His stock is at rock bottom after this whole circus, and even though he's definitely injured, it seems like he got screwed by his new team before even playing a minute with them.
I was teasing Jose earlier about his theory that this was a Lebron tantrum but at the very least, this shows how hard it is when you let a superstar dictate team operations. Lebron and Kyrie were a really good match in a lot of ways—this year's ECF showed that—and while they weren't as good as the Warriors, this was a team that was positioned to own this conference for a long time, even if the Celtics improved, simply by virtue of having 2 1/2 great players on their roster (Love being the half) and the ability to keep moving pieces around.Something just hit me, we may never see LBJ in the finals again. We will smoke Cleveland in the ECF this year, I don't care what the books say (people are really sleeping on how good Gordon Hayward is) and if the King is going to play out his days in LA with Lavars kid and PG, that is not enough to come out of the west.
Even better.Give them a couple unprotected second round picks so they can save face and let's move on.
ESPN Mike and Mike: "The trade is finalized as the Celtics send over a 2nd rounder as they needed to add assets because the Cavs believe they weren't upfront about IT's injury."
Um, no.
Yeah, I know. So then I switched over the SiriusXM NBA Radio at 8 am, thinking they'd lead with it--8 am, drive time.You really need to spare yourself from listening to these idiots. Just reading it second hand lowered my IQ 4 points
I was a 10 year old hoops fan in NY when the Cadavers started their existence 0-15 & 1-27.Am I the only old fart who remembers the Ted Stepien years?
I feel that both sides understood the severity of the injury which is why he was moved as a throw-in to this deal and that we've seen the last of the Isaiah we've come to know and love who can maybe squeeze out another year or two of effectiveness on a smaller scale. I don't expect a soft landing to the end of his career. When he loses his first step and explosion it's over for him.......it may already be.Now that Lowe's pretty-authoritative piece on the deal is out, and we know the compensation here is nominal, curious if the set of folks who were arguing for this being a significant disagreement on the injury or defending Cleveland's approach still feel that way. IMO, there's a bunch of far-worse-than-average takes through this thread (including from homers of other teams) that people should reflect on a bit now that this story has played itself out.
It's definitely going to lower teams' willingness to give him more than a year or two, even with a good finish to the season, because of what HRB said just above.I'm probably in the extreme minority that I don't really feel sorry for the way Cleveland handled IT (and I'm grateful for everything he accomplished). He shouldn't care what his stock is today. He needs to care what his stock is at the end of the season. That's all that matters for getting paid. He will have the same opportunity he had regardless of the injury questions to try to put up a great year and win to get paid. The little guy is a pro and will use the adversity to fuel him like he always has.
I agree with this.My view on whether the Cavs acted in good faith would hinge on 1) what exactly their medical team told them and 2) whether they were actively looking for other offers for Kyrie over the last week. Given the value of the various assets in the trade minor differences opinion on IT's availability for this year shouldn't have changed the Cavs view on the trade, but Im not sure it by itself rises to the level of acting in bad faith.
Basically if Boston said "IT is damaged goods and may miss the start of the season, but we still think this group of assets is attractive for the long-term" and the Cavs doctors came to management with reports that "IT is damaged goods and we think he can play this year, but we dont really know given the kind of injury he has"....would the Cavs getting cold feet about IT's availability this season have been acting in bad faith to rip up the deal and take a Bucks offer that offers more help now? I dont know, hard to say.
Certainly not calling you out, you've always been thoughtful and a regular in the forum who knows the NBA well. Though, I am pretty sure Lowe did not say what you suggest, either, fwiw, he said it was possible that could be the case (pretty different).I agree with this.
And PKB, are you looking for a mea culpa here? As Stitch notes, even with the Lowe piece we still have imperfect information. That account suggests that there was clearly a difference of opinion about Thomas return time/effectiveness between Boston and Cleveland.
I will agree that Cleveland appears to have handled this pretty badly. There is no denying that it's a bad look.
I'd take the over on that bet.Something just hit me, we may never see LBJ in the finals again. We will smoke Cleveland in the ECF this year, I don't care what the books say (people are really sleeping on how good Gordon Hayward is) and if the King is going to play out his days in LA with Lavars kid and PG, that is not enough to come out of the west.
The big reason that it feels like 'acting in bad faith' and not some sort of 'difference in opinion' is that Cleveland did absolutely nothing but leak crap, while other leaks indicated they didn't even -engage- Boston in discussions on how to resolve the situation for -days-.My view on whether the Cavs acted in good faith would hinge on 1) what exactly their medical team told them and 2) whether they were actively looking for other offers for Kyrie over the last week. Given the value of the various assets in the trade minor differences opinion on IT's availability for this year shouldn't have changed the Cavs view on the trade, but Im not sure it by itself rises to the level of acting in bad faith.
Basically if Boston said "IT is damaged goods and may miss the start of the season, but we still think this group of assets is attractive for the long-term" and the Cavs doctors came to management with reports that "IT is damaged goods and we think he can play this year, but we dont really know given the kind of injury he has"....would the Cavs getting cold feet about IT's availability this season have been acting in bad faith to rip up the deal and take a Bucks offer that offers more help now? I dont know, hard to say.
First bolded: because they're a clown show whose owner wanted a fig leaf and there was no need to hold up the trade over the negligable value of a 2nd round pick.The big reason that it feels like 'acting in bad faith' and not some sort of 'difference in opinion' is that Cleveland did absolutely nothing but leak crap, while other leaks indicated they didn't even -engage- Boston in discussions on how to resolve the situation for -days-.
If Cleveland had been negotiating in good faith, why is it that reports were their exams matched what Boston already reported -and- Cleveland had no response whatsoever for days? Why is it that Cleveland's 'major concerns' that would have been enough to 'resolve the whole thing' is settled by a 2020 second rounder? That's so paltry a solution and does absolutely nothing to resolve 'concerns about IT's hip'.
Was there -anything- in the whole saga that indicated that IT4's hip actually -was- worse than they thought? Because all I have seen was 'the results matched what Boston has been saying', and the only counter was 'well, Cleveland was acting in good faith if they reject it because of their hip'. Well no, Cleveland would have been acting in good faith -if- they actually had different -results- from the physical than what Boston reported. Nothing in any leaks ever indicated there were different results.
I agree with some of your point but it is only true if Thomas is truly healthy and playing at the same level he did this past year. If IT is healthy and you add Crowder to the role players they are just as good as they were last year if not better. The only thing in my mind that could keep that from happening is if IT is not as impactful because he doesn't have the ball in his hands all the time. But, he's shown in Boston that he can play off the ball and he'll need to with LeBron dominating the ball when they are on the floor together. However, they don't have many young guys whose improvement over an 82 game season could make the team better in the postseason. They might not need that to happen because their top 6 may be good enough to get them out of the East. However, I can't see Gilbert trading the Nets pick away for a 1-year shot at a title. They made the trade with Boston so they could start a rebuild if LeBron ends up leaving. I highly doubt LeBron would tell Gilbert he'd stay until after the season anyways so there's no way they trade the pick before knowing LBJ is definitely staying.If Thomas is healthy for the playoffs Cleveland is an improved team. If Cleveland trades the Nets 18' pick for an impact player (and Thomas is healthy for the playoffs) it is a much improved team with a chance to win a championship.
[The answer certainly matters to some members of the Cavaliers organization, namely LeBron James and head coach Ty Lue. One league source with an understanding of Cleveland’s situation told me that as news spread throughout the organization that Thomas could miss time deep into the upcoming season, James and Lue cooled on the deal. According to the same source, both the Cavs’ franchise player and their head coach were apparently told by upper management that Thomas and Crowder were being brought in to help the team compete with the Warriors, now.QUOTE]
I can accept the dysfunctional part, certainly. That would fit just about as well.But maybe they were acting in bad faith. I cant tell from the information we have whether it was acting in bad faith or a semi dysfunctional organization torn on which direction to take. Glad that it went through though.
That does not say anything about Cleveland having differing expectations. That only says Lue and James, who were not involved in the initial decision-making, -were- told something different by the people who -were- in a position to know.This is the quote from the Lowe piece that suggests that Cleveland and the Cs had differing expectations about Thomas return timetable. It speaks volumes about the unique situation they find themselves in both short and long-term:
That quote simply does not say what you have claimed it says. If anything, it supports the opposite conclusion--that the doctors and decision makers all agreed on both sides, and that as the info spread to others in the org (including Lebron) it became a thing.This is the quote from the Lowe piece that suggests that Cleveland and the Cs had differing expectations about Thomas return timetable. It speaks volumes about the unique situation they find themselves in both short and long-term: