BB isn’t getting fired. The mere hint of a suggestion of that is ludicrous. He just made the playoffs with a rookie QB which simply doesn’t happen often.
I don't think the bolded is correct. The final game of the season featured victories by the Jets and Pats, who beat Miami, resulting in all 3 teams finishing 9-7. The Jets won on a common games tiebreaker, thanks to the Pats losing to the Broncos.If it didn't end poorly, it probably wouldn't end.
Time passes everyone by eventually. The true test for Belichick, now, is how he responds. If we get more of the same drafting and free agent duds and they go 9-8 or worse, then it's probably time to call it. If they get into the playoffs again, it's hard to call for his head.
The only years they haven't gone to the playoffs in his tenure were Brady's first full year (thanks in part to the Jets(?) tanking it in the last game of the season), the year Cassel had to lead the team (going 11-5, which is usually good enough for a berth), and with Cam. I think he's earned at least one more season at the helm.
What year was the Super Bowl cancelled?They did as well as I could have expected, the game was ugly but I did not expect them to win the Superbowl. The year the superbowl was cancelled or when they lost to the jets or the year they lost to the colts when their whole secondary was injured were so much worse. They could have won the superbowls those years, I was crushed those years for days or weeks. And I forgot the eagles SB, because I was flying with my eagle fan boss to China the next day, and he was amazingly graceful, but it still sucked for the whole trip.
Scottish GameWhat year was the Super Bowl cancelled?
I don't remember it exactly, it is the year they won 18 games in a row, and then they cancelled the superbowl, that is how I remember it.What year was the Super Bowl cancelled?
Exactly ... he's getting traded to the NYGBB isn’t getting fired. The mere hint of a suggestion of that is ludicrous. He just made the playoffs with a rookie QB which simply doesn’t happen often.
Have you seen the defense lately? There are so many holes there it will take multiple years to fix that side.So since the Bills just killed the Pats and half the board thinks the sky is falling lets use them as an example of what is possible.
In Josh Allens first season they went 6-10 were 30th in offense and 18th in defense (but second in yards)
Two years later they make the AFCCG and this year they are a game away.
So with a team that just went 10-7 with a rookie QB, do we not think that BB can retool the team to be successful in the next two years?
One more good draft probably makes them contenders in two years if not next year.
They canceled it because the Pats had won 18 of 18 games going into it, and so the league figured that even if the Pats were somehow to lose that game, they'd still be the champs because what team goes 18-0 to start a season.I don't remember it exactly, it is the year they won 18 games in a row, and then they cancelled the superbowl, that is how I remember it.
Right over my head. SorryI don't remember it exactly, it is the year they won 18 games in a row, and then they cancelled the superbowl, that is how I remember it.
I agree in theory. I just don’t think Jones’s upside is as high as Allen’s was. Allen had the measurables / physical traits but not the mental tools. Jones is the opposite.So since the Bills just killed the Pats and half the board thinks the sky is falling lets use them as an example of what is possible.
In Josh Allens first season they went 6-10 were 30th in offense and 18th in defense (but second in yards)
Two years later they make the AFCCG and this year they are a game away.
So with a team that just went 10-7 with a rookie QB, do we not think that BB can retool the team to be successful in the next two years?
One more good draft probably makes them contenders in two years if not next year.
NFL units-especially on defense-can turn around fast. If Judson plays like he did the first half of the year Barmore improves and you just get a couple more players they might play a lot more like the good defensive unit we saw for most of the year than the really bad one we’ve seen the last couple of weeksHave you seen the defense lately? There are so many holes there it will take multiple years to fix that side.
Second. There was a Broncos team that went 11-5 and missed them.I don't think the bolded is correct. The final game of the season featured victories by the Jets and Pats, who beat Miami, resulting in all 3 teams finishing 9-7. The Jets won on a common games tiebreaker, thanks to the Pats losing to the Broncos.
The Pats had the tiebreaker over Miami, but were in a 3-way tie with the Browns and Broncos for the 2nd wild card. But the Browns had the best conference record, and so won the final tiebreaker.
2008 was weird, as I believe that Patriots team was the only 11-5 team in league history to miss the playoffs. The Chargers won the AFC West with an 8-8 record. The NFC sucked ass that year, and so the AFC teams all had inflated records. Pats again lost 2 tiebreakers: one in the division against Miami, and one for the wild card against the Ravens.
I believe with the loss they are locked into no lower than 21, no higher than 19 depending on the PHI and PIT outcomes.What's the worst case scenario that their first round draft pick could be at this point? Does anyone know?
EDIT: I think I may have answered my own question -- is it 21? That's not bad.
I want him there, and I don' think he's lost much off his fastball.I can understand criticizing the coaching for how the defense has played lately. That doesn't seem unreasonable. But I really can't imagine any circumstances where a Patriots fan wouldn't want BB to be the one to figure out what went wrong and be the one to fix it.
Unless he doesn't want to put the time in anymore, and I think he'll let everyone know when that is, I'm guessing he has a better chance of improving on what went wrong much, much better than most.
Yes, thanks. I came across the tankathon web site (couldn't think of the name of it earlier) and that's what I concluded. All the more reason to root for Pittsburgh tomorrow night -- they always draft well.I believe with the loss they are locked into no lower than 21, no higher than 19 depending on the PHI and PIT outcomes.
The defense that got them to the playoffs with a mediocre offense has multiple years of holes to fix?Have you seen the defense lately? There are so many holes there it will take multiple years to fix that side.
Wow. Only won 3 Super Bowls in the last decade. Been to two others. What a fraud. This thread is grand. Good job everyone.2015 should get a mention, too - started 10-0, finished 2-4 to blow the #1 seed, squeaked by the Alex Smith Chiefs and lost to a punchless Broncos team in the AFCCG.
For as much as Belichick's teams have a reputation for peaking late, it hasn't been the case as much as it has over the past decade.
They had it reversed, it was the Packers tanking against the Jets. I have not fond memories of the Packers starters keeping the game close, and then the backups rolling over in the 2nd half because the Packers had nothing to play for. That was before the NFL got smart and put games that mattered at the same times, so the Pats pulled out a huge comeback win and then it meant nothing as we watched the Pack fall apart i the later afternoon game.I don't think the bolded is correct. The final game of the season featured victories by the Jets and Pats, who beat Miami, resulting in all 3 teams finishing 9-7. The Jets won on a common games tiebreaker, thanks to the Pats losing to the Broncos.
Won't the defense have multiple holes to fill anyway? Bentley, Collins, Hightower, JC Jackson and McCourty will all be free agents. Maybe they'll be able to replace them all adequately in a single offseason, but it's a tough task. Even if most of those guys weren't playing at that high a level, it's simply a whole lot of starters you'd have to improve on.The defense that got them to the playoffs with a mediocre offense has multiple years of holes to fix?
I get being angry right now, but the defense was gold a month ago. It doesn't need to be completely rebuilt.
Thing is even those "rebuilt" Ds he put together during that period usually hung around 12th-18th in DVOA every year, which was good enough to win with provided you have a great offense and all time QB play. I don't think a 2014-2019 type of defense would be enough for this team to truly contend unless Mac improves by leaps and bounds and he does it fast.We’ve seen NE go through a complete rebuild on the defense end previously in the 2009-2012 era. That era also saw the embarrassing loss to the Ravens in the playoffs, followed by the loss to the Jets in the playoffs with the Drive to Nowhere after going 14-2 in the regular season, where everyone thought it was a changing of the guard for the AFC East.
NE has 2, maybe 3 players to build around on defense for the next run - Dugger, Barmore, and JCJ if re-signed, which is going to take some maneuvering on the cap, so I put that as a lower than 50% chance. I don’t count Judon in because of his age and contract, as I think there’s one more year before the defense is ready for prime-time if the rebuild goes smoothly. Phillips is in the same boat as he’ll be 30 next season. But this draft/offseason, they need to hit on FS, CB, and LB. It’s a huge offseason. They don’t have much cap room, so they need to have a good draft on that side of the ball. As others have mentioned, athleticism and speed are going to be key. They got that with Dugger and Barmore. Now, they need to add at least two more good, young pieces there. Maybe Uche gets back on track next year and takes care of the EDGE/LB side of things, depending on how they want to deploy him, but this year was disappointing there.
On offense, I think they obviously need more dynamic playmakers at WR. I think they’re good at RB, fine at TE even with Jonnu not playing up to his contract because Henry was very good, and they’ll probably continue to draft OTs because it’s always good to draft OTs. But they need to find some mid-round WR with athleticism and ability to separate. Those aren’t easy today, because everyone targets those guys, even if undersized, but that’s the one major need on offense to build for the future.
But I would go defense-heavy in this draft, and I think if they get two hits on that side of the ball, it sets them up well to add another piece or two the following year in the draft, add another guy through free agency after this season once the cap is cleaner and we can unload some deadweight, and then you’ve got a defense with 5-6 fast, athletic, young guys, with Judon and Phillips in the back end of their contracts and some other CBs they’ll coach up to handle slot and dime duty.
So yesterday really sucked, but they’ve been in this position before. I don’t necessarily implicitly trust BB to handle this, but he’s dealt with this exact situation previously, and then won 3 SBs in 5 years once he rebuilt the D, so he has done this successfully in his last attempt. It doesn’t guarantee he can do it here, but I am personally giving him the next two seasons to see what kinds of improvements he can make on that side of the ball.
2014-2018 was 8th, 9th, 2nd, 6th, 7th in points allowed per drive.Thing is even those "rebuilt" Ds he put together during that period usually hung around 12th-18th in DVOA every year, which was good enough to win with provided you have a great offense and all time QB play. I don't think a 2014-2019 type of defense would be enough for this team to truly contend unless Mac improves by leaps and bounds and he does it fast.
And 12th, 11th, 16th, 31st by DVOA.2014-2017 was 8th, 9th, 2nd, 6th in points allowed per drive.
My point is that regardless of their DVOA, they were consistently above-average to one of the league’s best units at actually preventing opponents from scoring for the exact 5-year period you mentioned.And 12th, 11th, 16th, 31st by DVOA.
Yup, I'm sure the fact they never turned the ball over on offense, had great special teams, basically always played with a lead and ranked 2nd, 2nd, 1st and 1st in average opponent starting field position during those years had nothing to do with preventing giving up points. But hey, if you think the 2017 Patriots were the 6th best defense in football, that's great.My point is that regardless of their DVOA, they were consistently above-average to one of the league’s best units at actually preventing opponents from scoring for the exact 5-year period you mentioned.
You are not wrong but also I think a bit pessimistic about the O's ability to replicate the above. They were 5th in average opponent starting position, no reason to see that get worse next year or beyond.Yup, I'm sure the fact they never turned the ball over on offense, had great special teams, basically always played with a lead and ranked 2nd, 2nd, 1st and 1st in average opponent starting field position during those years had nothing to do with preventing giving up points. But hey, if you think the 2017 Patriots were the 6th best defense in football, that's great.
Yes, they were good everywhere. That’s kind of what we’re going for, isn’t it? I’m suggesting that they can build this again.Yup, I'm sure the fact they never turned the ball over on offense, had great special teams, basically always played with a lead and ranked 2nd, 2nd, 1st and 1st in average opponent starting field position during those years had nothing to do with preventing giving up points. But hey, if you think the 2017 Patriots were the 6th best defense in football, that's great.
2015 should get a mention, too - started 10-0, finished 2-4 to blow the #1 seed, squeaked by the Alex Smith Chiefs and lost to a punchless Broncos team in the AFCCG.
For as much as Belichick's teams have a reputation for peaking late, it hasn't been the case as much as it has over the past decade.
So, when I thought about 2015, I decided that having won a playoff game means that it was better year than 2019 0r 2021. The other round one exist years:2015 their roster fell apart to injuries but 2019, 2020, and 2021 have been bad the last stretch of the season. They didn’t just fade this year but faded big time. In their last 4 losses they have been outscored 17-82 at the half. Yikes. Mac has turned the ball over 8 times in those 4 losses. The defense played ok vs the Colts but was a dud against the Bills both times and had a bad day against the Dolphins. For the first time in the history of the BB Patriots the team will finish with a negative special teams DVOA%. I don’t think he’s lost his fastball but these are some frustrating results.
This is neither here nor there. Jones might not have been able to win this for them, but the rest of the team never even gave him a chance to.5 of 40-something first round QBs have started a playoff game their rookie year since 2009 and the Sanchize.
I think the ST coaching was atrocious this year and I would actively look to bring someone not named Joe Judge in. The three blocked punts speak to horrible execution, as it is basically impossible to block a punt in the NFL if you competently coach assignments and pickups. Then there was the offsides on the FG, the covering of the snapper on punt return - these are systemic issues with coaching either not being good or not being received by the unit as a whole, which speaks to an issue with ST coaching.@IdiotKicker Pats will finish the year for the first time ever in BB’s tenure with them with a negative ST DVOA after last night (going into the game their ST was right at basically 0%, very slightly negative). Aside from getting Bailey healthy who was clearly hurt all year why did they have so much trouble vs their usual on kick returns and punt returns to a lesser extent? It felt like they just had too many short returnable kicks and punts but I’m not going to pretend I actually know what I’m talking about with STs. Thanks in advance. Really look forward to what you have to say here.
I think you are overstating the impact of Judge's actions with the Giants. The Patriots players are so heads-down that I highly doubt they have paid any attention to Joe Judge in NY. I think he would have instant credibility because a good chunk of the roster would still know him. Their ST were very good under Judge, I have no reason to believe they would tune him out if he came back.I think the ST coaching was atrocious this year and I would actively look to bring someone not named Joe Judge in. The three blocked punts speak to horrible execution, as it is basically impossible to block a punt in the NFL if you competently coach assignments and pickups. Then there was the offsides on the FG, the covering of the snapper on punt return - these are systemic issues with coaching either not being good or not being received by the unit as a whole, which speaks to an issue with ST coaching.
I don’t want Judge back because I think he lacks credibility after his tenure with the Giants. Like, I view him as a joke, and given that you need someone with credibility in that room right now, I don’t want Judge there because his quotes from the last month would diminish him in the eyes of players, even if he’s a really good ST coach tactically.
As to the short kicks, I think Bailey was hurt, and doing double duty does wear him down somewhat. I know that makes kickers and punters seem a bit soft, but we are, and it is a heavy load with all the practice reps to be able to stay sharp at an NFL level. I also think there may be a strategy to try to hold the opposing team inside the 25 by enticing them to return the kicks, but the coverage unit was not up to snuff there, which is a combination of personnel and coaching.
But overall, this was the worst special teams performance I have ever seen for a unit as a whole, not just in NE. It was terrible in 5 out of 6 aspects, with only the FG unit operating well. That is a recipe for coaching turnover, and I hope they aggressively pursue someone experienced with a good track record there.
100% with this. Creates a giant blind spot where Bill may *not* do “what’s best for the team”That said, having his son as the de facto DC is bad, and its not something that smart coaches do. One way or another, you have a warped perspective on your own kid's work.
I wouldn’t mind a tag and trade situation.I do not want JCJ back next year. He talked too much and in big moments got shredded. Last night he was fucking terrible. Lots of Asante in him and I have no use for that.
Diggs has been his kryptonite for years now. He’s a pro bowl caliber corner in my eyes but Diggs is a pro bowl caliber receiver and gets the better of him. JCJ is their best defensive player or second best if you really love Phillips. Losing him would mean Mills is CB1 with… Shaun Wade as someone on the roster who might be able to play there? I think JCJ should be a priority for them. If he goes they are down to abysmal outside guys and Mills who had a good year as a #2 guy but isn’t even best outside and is not a lockdown corner by any stretch.I do not want JCJ back next year. He talked too much and in big moments got shredded. Last night he was fucking terrible. Lots of Asante in him and I have no use for that.
I'll go one step further: the suggestion that BB could *ever* get fired seems ludicrous to me. If Belichick isn't allowed to coach as long as he wants, after everything he has achieved, what are we even doing here? (The closest to a firing I can even envisage would involve Kraft asking him to relinquish his GM duties and him viewing that as a grave enough insult to resign and retire.)BB isn’t getting fired. The mere hint of a suggestion of that is ludicrous. He just made the playoffs with a rookie QB which simply doesn’t happen often.
Sure, but BB is not going to hire a respected DC. It’s part of the reason why his coaching tree is so bad. He’s going to put a loyalist or a stooge in run his system, not get a talented veteran who won’t lick his boots. BB has certainly earned the right, I just wouldn’t play it that way.100% with this. Creates a giant blind spot where Bill may *not* do “what’s best for the team”
This is stupid, didn’t they have Dean Pees as DC at one point? Romeo?Sure, but BB is not going to hire a respected DC. It’s part of the reason why his coaching tree is so bad. He’s going to put a loyalist or a stooge in run his system, not get a talented veteran who won’t lick his boots. BB has certainly earned the right, I just wouldn’t play it that way.