I appreciate your thoughtful response. We need more of this and less "sick burns" that do nothing that further heighten acrimony.Off the bat:
- I support the players right to sit out tonight and be active in this way
- I support players uniformly over owners in nearly every single labor dispute and believe they should take home the lion's share of money.
- I don't agree with the poster you're responding to
But your response encapsulates what is so confusing to a lot of people. You're choosing to define class by one definition, and it's a popular definition right now rooted in a political bent. By any other measure, NBA players are not part of an aggrieved class. They are wealthy and have very large and influential platforms. In terms of power dynamics, they are a part of the powerful. Lebron James could very easily change Ohio politics if he chose to spend his money that way.
The idea that people can't voice an opinion about the way their city is policed because of their identity is pretty corrosive. And that's what we're talking about when we're talking about the NBA players trying to "change' things. If change means holding police accountable, I think a vast, vast majority of America agrees with them. If it means defunding police departments, that's a very different story and one that a majority of Americans, including those in aggrieved classes, do not agree with, particularly because there's not a lot of evidence behind it. So if I live in NY, LA, Chicago, Seattle, Atlanta, wherever, yeah, I should be thinking about the problem and the response to it and voicing that opinion even if I'm not in the aggrieved class because it impacts the safety of the people in my community. Insulting these players is not cool, as their intentions are obviously good, but we should have the flexibility as a civil society to allow people to disagree with parts of the end goal.
So I don't know what the answer is here and I don't think a lot of people do, including the players. I'm glad they're making people ask the question. But I just disagree that people who aren't in socially defined classes need to sit on the side of these conversations and nod along in agreement.
Tell me another league where the players did something 1/3 as big as this over any social issue.They are so upset... they are taking the night off?
Maybe - suspend the playoffs, entirely? Go to Kinosha? Really do something.
Do you think the players are demanding the NBA do more, or are they just protesting police brutality and demanding change there?Adam Silver, smart guy and problem solver, is certainly trying to think of a way out of this that makes the player's feel heard and their desires supported and also continue the playoffs.
What might that be?
Just brainstorming....
1) If I were him I'd be on the phone to noted basketball fan Barack Obama to say that you'd love his advice on how the NBA can spend money, public attention, and channel the enthusiasm of the league and players towards progress. You of course would have to mean it, but I acutally think the NBA does. And that's one guy who might be able to get the players to believe in a different path---though I have no idea whether he would think they should walk, play, or something else entirely
2) You can write a big check to NAACP or a different cause. Not sure that will persuade the players.
3) You can try to get the owners to rally politically around the issue. That might help, but feels pretty tough to execute with a club of billionaires
4) You can do a version of 2 where you commit all proceeds from playoffs to the right cause
5) You can try to get major advertisers and broadcast partners to commit to a variety of things around change.
Other ideas?
I think they are surely protesting police brutality and demanding change there. But Adam Silver's problem is not that he opposes that goal, it is that the NBA season is about to be collateral damage. So I expect he is trying to figure a way out of that, since he can't just decree an end to police bruality himself.Do you think the players are demanding the NBA do more, or are they just protesting police brutality and demanding change there?
What was the quote Nats closer Sean Doolittle said a while ago? Sports are a reward for a functioning society. I agree something bigger is needed here.this is a very fluid situation. I can see the season "falling apart" here. But really, does society deserve sports right now? it'd be powerful if every major sport just stopped until there's police reform.
Right I get that. But do you think if he does any of those things that will bring them back to the court? That's a serious question. They're not actually demanding anything of HIM, so why should anything HE does mollify them? (I don't mean that term in a negative way.)I think they are surely protesting police brutality and demanding change there. But Adam Silver's problem is not that he opposes that goal, it is that the NBA season is about to be collateral damage. So I expect he is trying to figure a way out of that, since he can't just decree an end to police bruality himself.
Wow, it must be so hard to get confused so easily. According to your post, NBA players, by virtue of having money (?) and being famous (?) are somehow not members of an aggrieved class? And yet Thabo Sefolosha had his leg broken by the NYPD and Sterling Brown is involved in an ongoing lawsuit against the police department for excessive force. So strange. I guess those cops didn’t get the memo that the rich black guys aren’t aggrieved. Lebron James could easily change politics if he just chose to do so? Aside from being completely false, it’s an idiotic statement to make in a thread about players not taking the court.Off the bat:
- I support the players right to sit out tonight and be active in this way
- I support players uniformly over owners in nearly every single labor dispute and believe they should take home the lion's share of money.
- I don't agree with the poster you're responding to
But your response encapsulates what is so confusing to a lot of people. You're choosing to define class by one definition, and it's a popular definition right now rooted in a political bent. By any other measure, NBA players are not part of an aggrieved class. They are wealthy and have very large and influential platforms. In terms of power dynamics, they are a part of the powerful. Lebron James could very easily change Ohio politics if he chose to spend his money that way.
The bolded statement is where I lose you. You choose to define centuries of systemic racism as "rooted in a political bent", and call NBA players not black enough. Your opening argument is that their argument isn't valid, and that's where you're wrong.You're choosing to define class by one definition, and it's a popular definition right now rooted in a political bent. By any other measure, NBA players are not part of an aggrieved class.
Oh, for sure. My post was more in awe of how wild and audacious all of this is by the players, in the best possible way. Which is also why it seems really weird to me that some others in this thread are like, "they're just skipping a game or two, whatevs." Like, wut.These players and their families are more on the knife's edge of these threats than the people sitting in the stands.
I'd include some of the overseas players like the Eastern European and Turkish players in there.
I didn't want to go there but in the last 24 hoursVince Carter, Sam Mitchell and Isiah Thomas have all come out with stories about recent run ins with law enforcement. If you are black and rich in America, you are just as at risk of being subject to a level of suspicion and scrutiny that white people with lesser means could never imagine. And these are just the stories of famous wealthy people. Its pretty clear that wealth and status don't stop racism - maybe it just allows people to paper it over.Wow, it must be so hard to get confused so easily. According to your post, NBA players, by virtue of having money (?) and being famous (?) are somehow not members of an aggrieved class? And yet Thabo Sefolosha had his leg broken by the NYPD and Sterling Brown is involved in an ongoing lawsuit against the police department for excessive force. So strange. I guess those cops didn’t get the memo that the rich black guys aren’t aggrieved. Lebron James could easily change politics if he just chose to do so? Aside from being completely false, it’s an idiotic statement to make in a thread about players not taking the court.
As for the rest of your post, no, we shouldn’t be able to disagree about the end goal when the end goal is to stop periodically executing black men. Your post sucks, try harder.
Yes, they imply emphasis and meaning beyond the typical. He is a smart guy. He is socially conscious. He does appear to enjoy getting involved with and diving more deeply into issues than your average guy. I would be completely unsurprised, if after basketball, he went into politics. He's one of my favorite players and he's great. This could be quite a moment for him.Those are certainly words.
The "" around Jaylen's involvement is a particularly nice touch.
Didn't one of the Bucks players recently have a run-in with police where he ended up with a knee on his neck like George Floyd? Who are you to say they are not members of an aggrieved class? And even if their wealth and platform puts them in a different position vis a vis the police than your average every day black guy, they all grew up understanding what it means to be black in this country, and how it feels to fear, not trust, the police. The fact that they have money now does not mean that they don't have the standing to speak on the issue.But your response encapsulates what is so confusing to a lot of people. You're choosing to define class by one definition, and it's a popular definition right now rooted in a political bent. By any other measure, NBA players are not part of an aggrieved class. They are wealthy and have very large and influential platforms. In terms of power dynamics, they are a part of the powerful. Lebron James could very easily change Ohio politics if he chose to spend his money that way.
This isn't an NBA issue, it's a societal one. There isn't anything Adam Silver can do that's going to stop police officers from murdering black men. And the players have seen that despite using their microphone to send messages of social justice, those messages aren't working right now. I don't think giving them a larger microphone is going to solve the problem. Frankly, I'm not sure there's any sort of microphone that can solve the problem right now, but that's perhaps a discussion for a different forum. The point is, the NBA can't stop police violence, so if the players decide that it's more important to protest right now than to play, that's what's going to happen. The best decision the NBA can make, IMO, is to support whatever decision the players make, even if it costs them revenue in the short term. It's both the right moral choice and one which will preserve a strong relationship between the players and the league in the long term.Adam Silver, smart guy and problem solver, is certainly trying to think of a way out of this that makes the player's feel heard and their desires supported and also continue the playoffs.
What might that be?
As I said, I think he's trying to solve the problem of how to get them to come back. So at one level, I think they want something and he is likely thinking about how he can be a part (and only a part) of helping them. I also think he'd have to be completely incompetent to be operating under the assumption that since he can't completely solve the player's concern himself immediately he should just throw up his hands (which is how I read your posts).Right I get that. But do you think if he does any of those things that will bring them back to the court? That's a serious question. They're not actually demanding anything of HIM, so why should anything HE does mollify them? (I don't mean that term in a negative way.)
Unless they actually ARE demanding something of him.
I think you are misunderstanding their goals and underestimating their sophistication.This isn't an NBA issue, it's a societal one. There isn't anything Adam Silver can do that's going to stop police officers from murdering black men. And the players have seen that despite using their microphone to send messages of social justice, those messages aren't working right now. I don't think giving them a larger microphone is going to solve the problem. Frankly, I'm not sure there's any sort of microphone that can solve the problem right now, but that's perhaps a discussion for a different forum. The point is, the NBA can't stop police violence, so if the players decide that it's more important to protest right now than to play, that's what's going to happen. The best decision the NBA can make, IMO, is to support whatever decision the players make, even if it costs them revenue in the short term. It's both the right moral choice and one which will preserve a strong relationship between the players and the league in the long term.
As for what the players should do? I honestly have never been in a situation where I needed to be afraid of the police, or lived in those communities. So I can't really give them much advice. I think the best I can do here is to trust the decisions made by the players, who have had those experiences which I haven't. As a sports fan, of course I'd love to have my entertainment, but if there's something which these players could be doing instead of entertaining me which is going to save lives and protect their communities, then I'll do without basketball for a while.
While I'm sure you are at least partially correct, in terms of relative between the leagues, I think one thing that's quite clear is that this has blossomed into a generation thing more than anything else. You saw Boston in the wake of George Floyd, you saw young celebrities and people everywhere taking up signs and taking to the streets. Athletes are young people and this new generation, quite literally, is not going to stand for it anymore.This would be interesting, as I am sure the demographics of baseball players definitely leans conservative (at least in relation to the NBA).
I wholeheartedly agree. But when you "may" have 1 or 2 basketball players on a team (and that is probably generous) that sympathize with police/all lives matter/Republican causes, etc...in baseball that number will be higher and therefore tougher to come together as one voice against the oppression.While I'm sure you are at least partially correct, in terms of relative between the leagues, I think one thing that's quite clear is that this has blossomed into a generation thing more than anything else. You saw Boston in the wake of George Floyd, you saw young celebrities and people everywhere taking up signs and taking to the streets. Athletes are young people and this new generation, quite literally, is not going to stand for it anymore.
Yeah, this isn’t a boycott, it’s a strike, and one thing that’s true about the NBA that isn’t common in America nowadays is that it’s a workplace where the workers have the power to effectively run a wildcat strikeThis is awesome. Imagine waking up to realize that you have the power to cause this kind of disruption, and then doing it? To realize that you’ve been super competitive all your life in a particular, physical way, but that as a consequence you’ve unintentionally developed collateral power, which you then flex over America? Forget the playoffs. These guys are winning society. Hell yeah.
“A night off”... As if you weren’t revealing yourself already, with your insistence on nitpicking the precise manner by which these men protest, your belittling language tells me all I need to know on where you stand.Yes, they imply emphasis and meaning beyond the typical. He is a smart guy. He is socially conscious. He does appear to enjoy getting involved with and diving more deeply into issues than your average guy. I would be completely unsurprised, if after basketball, he went into politics. He's one of my favorite players and he's great. This could be quite a moment for him.
But - I'm expressing my opinion that a night off... 7 seconds of silence... or a sticker on the shoes... is not the correct answer.
What are you chasing after?
If the league resumes business as usual in a few days, it's not a boycott OR a strike - it's just the league and players mutually agreeing to postpone a handful of games to make a statement.Yeah, this isn’t a boycott, it’s a strike, and one thing that’s true about the NBA that isn’t common in America nowadays is that it’s a workplace where the workers have the power to effectively run a wildcat strike
I didn't say that "no NBA has ever dealt with racism." Obviously there have been some extremely ugly incidents with players like Sterling Brown and Thabo. My point was that you could be a dead-broke white person with no access to education, no access to decent food, no job prospects - and there are tens of millions of these people in the US - and you probably would see yourself as less powerful than NBA players for good reason.Wow, it must be so hard to get confused so easily. According to your post, NBA players, by virtue of having money (?) and being famous (?) are somehow not members of an aggrieved class? And yet Thabo Sefolosha had his leg broken by the NYPD and Sterling Brown is involved in an ongoing lawsuit against the police department for excessive force. So strange. I guess those cops didn’t get the memo that the rich black guys aren’t aggrieved. Lebron James could easily change politics if he just chose to do so? Aside from being completely false, it’s an idiotic statement to make in a thread about players not taking the court.
As for the rest of your post, no, we shouldn’t be able to disagree about the end goal when the end goal is to stop periodically executing black men. Your post sucks, try harder.
I didn't say either of those things. You interpreted them that way for whatever reason. I said that viewing only people of certain identities as being aggrieved is political, because it absolutely is right now. I have no idea where the black enough thing is coming from and I think that says more about you than me. Being rich and powerful is certainly a domain for a number of black men and women, including politicians, business leaders, entertainers, and even NBA players.The bolded statement is where I lose you. You choose to define centuries of systemic racism as "rooted in a political bent", and call NBA players not black enough. Your opening argument is that their argument isn't valid, and that's where you're wrong.
Nobody needs IDs to vote. Where did you hear this? I have never produced an ID to vote.he could help people get IDs so they can vote
In my relatively small New England town (pop. ~10,000) I need to show an ID to vote. At least they always ask to see it. I’ve never tried NOT showing it to see what would happen.Nobody needs IDs to vote. Where did you hear this? I have never produced an ID to vote.
And if they did need an ID it would be up to the government to give them one for free.
Which is why nobody actually wants to make people get IDs to vote.
Huh? https://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/voter-id.aspxNobody needs IDs to vote. Where did you hear this? I have never produced an ID to vote.
And if they did need an ID it would be up to the government to give them one for free.
Which is why nobody actually wants to make people get IDs to vote.
Thank you for the response. I think we are going to see things differently in this matter.Because I can think quickly and realize it doesn't seem particularly consequential (there appear to be none) or sacrificial (again, a night off). Jaylen is a very "involved" person. If he and Giannis left the bubble to go to Kinosha/DC/wherever and said they'll be back to basketball after they do some things. That's badass. That's putting your money where your mouth is.
This is taking a night off.
I'm sorry if you don't like my opinion. I hope you'll consider it.
When it comes to black men and women in this country, there is no "right now" to their being, rightfully, aggrieved. Their persecution is not some temporary, fleeting element of this society. It has been a permanent feature and it goes way beyond politics.I didn't say that "no NBA has ever dealt with racism." Obviously there have been some extremely ugly incidents with players like Sterling Brown and Thabo. My point was that you could be a dead-broke white person with no access to education, no access to decent food, no job prospects - and there are tens of millions of these people in the US - and you probably would see yourself as less powerful than NBA players for good reason.
And regarding LeBron James, he absolutely could. He's his own billion dollar corporation. He could lobby politicians, he could help people get IDs so they can vote, he could cold call voters in the OH suburbs, etc. He's a very powerful human.
Not sure why I'm deserving of that kind of attitude for trying to express the fairly anodyne opinion that this is a really complex issue with a lot of different angles that should be discussed.
I didn't say either of those things. You interpreted them that way for whatever reason. I said that viewing only people of certain identities as being aggrieved is political, because it absolutely is right now. I have no idea where the black enough thing is coming from and I think that says more about you than me. Being rich and powerful is certainly a domain for a number of black men and women, including politicians, business leaders, entertainers, and even NBA players.
Thanks @DeJesus Built My Hotrod for the thoughtful post and response
You are one of the reasons why people are still protesting, because you don't get it and really seem happy that way. The discrimination specifically against Black people in this country is older than this country itself. You see the desire for equal rights as "political" as a way to willfully misunderstand them. You are wrong.I said that viewing only people of certain identities as being aggrieved is political, because it absolutely is right now.
One of these things is not like the other.Yes, they imply emphasis and meaning beyond the typical. He is a smart guy. He is socially conscious. He does appear to enjoy getting involved with and diving more deeply into issues than your average guy. I would be completely unsurprised, if after basketball, he went into politics. He's one of my favorite players and he's great. This could be quite a moment for him.
But - I'm expressing my opinion that a night off... 7 seconds of silence... or a sticker on the shoes... is not the correct answer.
What are you chasing after?
Again, this is how you're choosing to interpret what I'm saying and making fairly explosive judgments about my values in the process. We are talking on a message board - you don't know me and I don't know why you're presuming that I'm "happy" about anything going on right now.You are one of the reasons why people are still protesting, because you don't get it and really seem happy that way. The discrimination specifically against Black people in this country is older than this country itself. You see the desire for equal rights as "political" as a way to willfully misunderstand them. You are wrong.
This would have been great. Even better if they could get the Magic to play to a draw, 0-0.I'm happy they did what they did, but honestly, I think they could have taken it a little further.
Make them broadcast the forfeit. Take the tip, run out the clock, drop the ball, and walk off the court. Make America see it.
Either way, good on them
I love this post, can I plagiarize it?This is awesome. Imagine waking up to realize that you have the power to cause this kind of disruption, and then doing it? To realize that you’ve been super competitive all your life in a particular, physical way, but that as a consequence you’ve unintentionally developed collateral power, which you then flex over America? Forget the playoffs. These guys are winning society. Hell yeah.
Seconded!I love this post, can I plagiarize it?
Yes, there are tens of millions of people who feel this way. And not one of them has ever been pulled over for Driving While Black. So you and they would be wrong. Whites have unseen but universally accepted privileges/advantages that BIPOC don’t. And that’s a big part of the problem..... My point was that you could be a dead-broke white person with no access to education, no access to decent food, no job prospects - and there are tens of millions of these people in the US - and you probably would see yourself as less powerful than NBA players...
I think it may be helpful if you define which policy prescriptions are inherently political. That could go a long way toward bridging the divide here. Or I suppose widening it depending on the answer?Again, this is how you're choosing to interpret what I'm saying and making fairly explosive judgments about my values in the process. We are talking on a message board - you don't know me and I don't know why you're presuming that I'm "happy" about anything going on right now.
I understand how people are being discriminated against. I'm am empathetic to it. I support people protesting - in my original post, I stated plainly just that. However, there are policy prescriptions baked into these conversations that are inherently political and thoughts on those specific policies have nothing to do with how a person feels about the problem at large. A person can question how we attempt to get to an end goal while agreeing with the end goal.
Indeed it is not.Colin Kapernick lost the prime years of his career, tens of millions of dollars, and has been made out as a villain and traitor for most of the country, for taking this stand.
This is not without risk for the players.
What does this mean? I fail to see what is political about demanding equal rights and equal treatment under the law.Again, this is how you're choosing to interpret what I'm saying and making fairly explosive judgments about my values in the process. We are talking on a message board - you don't know me and I don't know why you're presuming that I'm "happy" about anything going on right now.
I understand how people are being discriminated against. I'm am empathetic to it. I support people protesting - in my original post, I stated plainly just that. However, there are policy prescriptions baked into these conversations that are inherently political and thoughts on those specific policies have nothing to do with how a person feels about the problem at large. A person can question how we attempt to get to an end goal while agreeing with the end goal.
So you view a basketball player who has made millions of dollars in his career, has millions of fans he can reach out to and a microphone to distribute his thoughts as being less powerful than someone mired in poverty just because of the color of his skin? I'm sorry that I don't agree, but that doesn't mean that I'm not horrified by police violence and inequality.Yes, there are tens of millions of people who feel this way. And not one of them has ever been pulled over for Driving While Black. So you and they would be wrong. Whites have unseen but universally accepted privileges/advantages that BIPOC don’t. And that’s a big part of the problem.
For example, defunding the police - I don't know enough about it to know if it's the right answer or not, in many of the flavors it comes in. And I don't think anyone knows that it is the answer, yet it's often presented as if it's this tested, perfect solution and if you disagree with it, then you disagree with the entire goal of the movement. But what if we do that and the results are worse? Where's the evidence that it's a better solution than what we're doing now? Of course it sounds good but it's not actually rooted in any proof. The closest thing that I've seen is Camden, NJ, but what happened was that they ended up hiring more police, but the police were private instead of a part of the existing department.I think it may be helpful if you define which policy prescriptions are inherently political. That could go a long way toward bridging the divide here. Or I suppose widening it depending on the answer?