In fact I not only miss Mookie, I miss all the Killer Bees. But we move on. Go Sox!!! Now go beat the Stros!!!!!!
Are we still making sacrifices to the pagan god of BABIP? Andy Rooney over here looks like he’s volunteering as tribute.I miss the Bees as players but that dance routine annoyed the shit out of me watching it. Wish they would just play the game. Hate the fact that most modern sports people dont just go for the game. Take the Bruins for example, most people there cant handle sitting in a seat for a few miutes without t shirt contests or some kind of shit being pushed at them from the big screen. Lots of people there to do "crazy dances" to get teir fiftenn minuts on a viral video. Rant over
You were actually able to read that?Are we still making sacrifices to the pagan god of BABIP? Andy Rooney over here looks like he’s volunteering as tribute.
Robot lurkers!Forget robot umps. We need robot players and robot fans.
I'm fine with VerdugoRed Sox should have taken Graterol ....sigh ...
Original deal was Verdugo and Graterol; the replacements after the Sox balked at Brusdar's medicals were Downs and Wong..I'm fine with Verdugo
Graterol had a 4.59 era this year, good for a 90 era+ and a 0 war, that's worse than guys like Workman and Rios who they had no interest in keeping with the big club, I don't think it's a guarantee at all that he would have helped the 2021 Sox more than nothing.Original deal was Verdugo and Graterol; the replacements after the Sox balked at Brusdar's medicals were Downs and Wong..
We'll have to wait and see if Graterol's arm falls off in the next few years, and if Jeter stops sucking, to really judge, but certainly the 2021 Red Sox would have profited more from the original trade.
FWIW (not much), Connor Wong had more 2021 bWAR than Graterol, 0.3 to 0.0 — but Graterol has 0.3 fWAR to Wong's 0.2.Graterol had a 4.59 era this year, good for a 90 era+ and a 0 war, that's worse than guys like Workman and Rios who they had no interest in keeping with the big club, I don't think it's a guarantee at all that he would have helped the 2021 Sox more than nothing.
Gun to my head I would have completely forgot that Wong had 14 productive PAs this year.FWIW (not much), Connor Wong had more 2021 bWAR than Graterol, 0.3 to 0.0 — but Graterol has 0.3 fWAR to Wong's 0.2.
And with that night in the books he put up 450/455/600 in the NLDS, after going 2 for 4 in the WC play in game. He is having an outstanding postseason so far.It was a rough evening for people who want to argue we shouldn't miss Mookie because he never comes through in the playoffs. He went 4 for 4, SB, R in a 2-1 elimination game. If they handed out single game MVPs, he would take the title for the Dodgers (assuming Gabe Morales isn't eligible).
Doesn't mean we shouldn't have traded him or that the team is a failure without him or that we would be favorites to win the Series if we had kept him and somehow resigned him or or or...just noting that he had an exceptional playoff game.
As the person who (regretfully?) reinvigorated this thread, my reason for doing so was really using Mookie to ask the question at what point in someone's playoff career can we talk about the numbers in an actual meaningful way? The more I think about it, the answer is likely pretty close to never. If the Sox play the Dodgers in the WS this thread might end up breaking SOSH...And with that night in the books he put up 450/455/600 in the NLDS, after going 2 for 4 in the WC play in game. He is having an outstanding postseason so far.
Small sample size caveats still apply, but if the rules say we could talk about mediocre numbers after 3 games we can talk about great ones after 5.
I think the honest answer to that is "when we have enough data." Unfortunately that stage is extremely subjective and not held to any agreed definitions. It's an age-old problem.As the person who (regretfully?) reinvigorated this thread, my reason for doing so was really using Mookie to ask the question at what point in someone's playoff career can we talk about the numbers in an actual meaningful way? The more I think about it, the answer is likely pretty close to never. If the Sox play the Dodgers in the WS this thread might end up breaking SOSH...
Pretty amazing what one game can do with sample sizes that small. Mookie's playoff slash went from 0.268/0.345/0.419/0.764 with a 101 wRC+ to 0.284/0.357/0.432/0.789 with a 108 wRC+. If he has a similarly good series in the NLCS, his overall numbers are going to be looking pretty good overall.And with that night in the books he put up 450/455/600 in the NLDS, after going 2 for 4 in the WC play in game. He is having an outstanding postseason so far.
Small sample size caveats still apply, but if the rules say we could talk about mediocre numbers after 3 games we can talk about great ones after 5.
It's a tough question, because athletes *do* have to perform in the moment and, as humans, it's hard not to apply narratives to the handful of small moments that you stitch together in the playoffs. I think the real problem is that narratives like "he's bad in the playoffs" vs "he's good in the playoffs!" are lazy and don't offer a lot of value.As the person who (regretfully?) reinvigorated this thread, my reason for doing so was really using Mookie to ask the question at what point in someone's playoff career can we talk about the numbers in an actual meaningful way? The more I think about it, the answer is likely pretty close to never. If the Sox play the Dodgers in the WS this thread might end up breaking SOSH...
It feels like you need something close to a half-season of PAs before you can start to tease out a player's performance in the playoffs, which means that most players simply won't reach that threshold. For example, Ortiz had 369 playoff PAs, which is, what, 2/3 of a season? Not surprisingly, his stats basically converged with his career stats Conversely, Mookie is at 207 playoff PA's, which is a little bit more than 2 months of baseball. To put that in context, Mookie's playoff stats right now would be equivalent of a someone's stats in early June. Plenty of guys have gotten off to slow starts with poor stats by early June that have turned around their seasons with monster backhalfs. Given Mookie's age and that he's playing for the Dodgers, he has a very good chance to accumulate close to a season's worth of PAs over his playoff career.I think the honest answer to that is "when we have enough data." Unfortunately that stage is extremely subjective and not held to any agreed definitions. It's an age-old problem.
And any judgement on Mookie's overall contract is going to be based on years worth of data. We've seen in baseball where anyone can get hot and deliver in high leverage situations in the playoffs (Bobby Kielty, Steve Pearce) but not really be worth mega-contracts.I think the honest answer to that is "when we have enough data." Unfortunately that stage is extremely subjective and not held to any agreed definitions. It's an age-old problem.
To definitively say? Probably when the player retires. But if you realize that baseball discussions whether it's season-long or career-long are fluid conversations, you can talk about it whenever you want. The problem iis there are people who talk as if the world is going to blow up tomorrow and this is the very last bit of data that we have.As the person who (regretfully?) reinvigorated this thread, my reason for doing so was really using Mookie to ask the question at what point in someone's playoff career can we talk about the numbers in an actual meaningful way? The more I think about it, the answer is likely pretty close to never. If the Sox play the Dodgers in the WS this thread might end up breaking SOSH...
Appreciate this, along with the other above responses. I'll now prepare to bang my head into the wall when my brother calls before the game tonight to tell me that Sale has no business starting game one and will make the definitive statement, "he's terrible in the playoffs."To definitively say? Probably when the player retires. But if you realize that baseball discussions whether it's season-long or career-long are fluid conversations, you can talk about it whenever you want. The problem iis there are people who talk as if the world is going to blow up tomorrow and this is the very last bit of data that we have.
It's sort of the same discussion that we had about the FO at the Trading Deadline. At the time, some of us were like, "This doesn't solve our needs now", others were like, "Yes it does. Have faith." Turns out after two more months of data, the latter were correct. However, the differing viewpoints were the two sides of the same coin, neither of us had the data to definitively say who was correct. We were both going on what we saw and what we thought we'd see in the future. But that's baseball. And that's sports. You don't need--and normally no one has--all of the data points to argue or talk or post. If we did have to wait, SoSH would be a very lonely place from April through October.
And Downs couldn't hit .200 in AAA! Oh boy. Wong was considered merely the throw in, with Downs being the main substitute for Graterol. Graterol seems at worst, a solid major league reliever, with a very high ceiling. Be interesting to look at stats to see how often anyone had a season as bad as Downs' in the high minors, and went on to be a productive major leaguer.Graterol had a 4.59 era this year, good for a 90 era+ and a 0 war, that's worse than guys like Workman and Rios who they had no interest in keeping with the big club, I don't think it's a guarantee at all that he would have helped the 2021 Sox more than nothing.
Not only that, but many of the people who were “right” about the deadline were arguing that Bloom didn’t do more because he knew the team wasn’t a true contender…which isn’t how it worked out. There were a lot of possibilities as to how the season worked out- the Sox ended up making the playoffs by the slimmest of margins and that’s a testament to the team getting it done when they had to. But had they lost one more game while the Jays won more, would the deadline skeptics been vindicated? I don’t think so.To definitively say? Probably when the player retires. But if you realize that baseball discussions whether it's season-long or career-long are fluid conversations, you can talk about it whenever you want. The problem iis there are people who talk as if the world is going to blow up tomorrow and this is the very last bit of data that we have.
It's sort of the same discussion that we had about the FO at the Trading Deadline. At the time, some of us were like, "This doesn't solve our needs now", others were like, "Yes it does. Have faith." Turns out after two more months of data, the latter were correct. However, the differing viewpoints were the two sides of the same coin, neither of us had the data to definitively say who was correct. We were both going on what we saw and what we thought we'd see in the future. But that's baseball. And that's sports. You don't need--and normally no one has--all of the data points to argue or talk or post. If we did have to wait, SoSH would be a very lonely place from April through October.
You can talk about the numbers and games that have happened in a very meaningful way. The original question was why Mookie isn't thought of like Ortiz, Brady, and Bird. It's because he wasn't around for as long and wasn't particularly good in the playoffs for the Red Sox. Those games happened and those are the numbers he put up.As the person who (regretfully?) reinvigorated this thread, my reason for doing so was really using Mookie to ask the question at what point in someone's playoff career can we talk about the numbers in an actual meaningful way? The more I think about it, the answer is likely pretty close to never. If the Sox play the Dodgers in the WS this thread might end up breaking SOSH...
Steve Pence had his moments as Lt Gov, I suppose, but I don't see them as high lev.And any judgement on Mookie's overall contract is going to be based on years worth of data. We've seen in baseball where anyone can get hot and deliver in high leverage situations in the playoffs (Bobby Kielty, Steve Pence) but not really be worth mega-contracts.
The bottom-line judgment on Mookie's contract will be based on years of regular/post-season productivity.
Kentucky politics is the MAJOR LEAGUES!!!Steve Pence had his moments as Lt Gov, I suppose, but I don't see them as high lev.
He now has a 106 era+ in 66.1 minor league innings, not sure how that makes his floor a solid major league reliever with a very high ceiling.And Downs couldn't hit .200 in AAA! Oh boy. Wong was considered merely the throw in, with Downs being the main substitute for Graterol. Graterol seems at worst, a solid major league reliever, with a very high ceiling. Be interesting to look at stats to see how often anyone had a season as bad as Downs' in the high minors, and went on to be a productive major leaguer.
Anyway, this is hindsight thinking. Just some wistful thinking watching Graterol last night.
Maybe you're right. His stuff is certainly lively, and watching you get the sense he could be formidable ... then again not all guys that throw hard have good careers. Certainly the Sox felt not having him was equal to Downs AND Wong ...so, they valued his ceiling, just didn't want a guy with wonky medicals.He now has a 106 era+ in 66.1 minor league innings, not sure how that makes his floor a solid major league reliever with a very high ceiling.
He has decent stuff, but he's a 23yo with 50K in 66IP. I'd be happy if he were in our pen, but he's not likely a guy we'll spend a ton of tears on not having. If he were 21 or an 11 K/9 guy (or both), that would look like we took the wrong package even with wonky medicals.Maybe you're right. His stuff is certainly lively, and watching you get the sense he could be formidable ... then again not all guys that throw hard have good careers. Certainly the Sox felt not having him was equal to Downs AND Wong ...so, they valued his ceiling, just didn't want a guy with wonky medicals.
Not to mention several sensational plays in the field.He's been outstanding in the playoffs for LA. 24 games, 17-7 record, hitting .337 / .398 OBP / .516 SLG / .914 OPS, 3 HR / 12 RBI / 17 R, 8 SB / 0 CS. He's been fantastic for them in the playoffs.
The other thing about Mookie is that he's an entirely likable personality. He's humble, he's intelligent, he's upbeat, he's unique in his way (300 bowler, can solve a rubik's cube in less than two minutes -- View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZeY_YaU4IULiving out here in L.A., it's been pretty bonkers to see how quickly the city has taken to Betts. I think a big part of that is the sudden and shocking passing of Kobe Bryant, about a week before the trade. People here were/are devastated–there are so many tributes and murals. The trade at least gave the fans something to be excited about. Then the Dodgers and the Lakers won rings and the city has is still buzzing. I was eating some great al pastor on Friday and realized my back against a combined Kobe-Mookie mural. He's already becoming a definitional Dodger in the hearts and minds of fans, and I think it's gonna take a lot–especially after winning a ring in his first season–to knock him down off that level. Mookie plays the game with joy (a lot of Dodger fans miss Verdugo and Hernandez a lot), with confidence and passion and a bit of flair, all of which is very appreciated by Dodger fans.
Eovaldi was pulled because he’s terrible the 3rd time through. .780 OPS against 3rd time through the order.
Another detail on the signing bonus element of his contract:at the time he signed, he was legally a resident of Tennessee, where the Tax implications of the signing bonus arebery favorable.The Dodgers also gave him a $65 million signing bonus, which changes the math. The signing bonus is guaranteed against work stoppages or other lack of play, and is not subject to CA's state income tax as he's not a CA resident. We do not know if the Red Sox offered the same.
The 10/300 offer was grossly belies his market value and the whole world knew it. The 12/420 counter offer was a counter offer and the normal order of things would be to engage in negotiating to meet in the middle. The Sox chose to walk away.
The Sox decided that they didn’t want Mookie in their organization any more and so traded him. He promptly won a WS with his new team. The Sox bet on themselves that they could do better with that money; obviously this year is fun but it remains to be seen if they can win a WS without Mookie.
Another player to consider is Yellich; the Brewers are going to be on the hook for his decline for awhile. The bottom line is baseball has rapidly turned to being a young man’s game and as long as ownership groups are going to suppress overall player salaries and limit spending on the total team, it’s going to make it hard to retain players who want to be paid what they’re worth. If any team wants to bet on winning to cure ill will with the fan base (and really, what’s better), then investing completely in one player is going to hamstring the total roster.Anyone who misses the killer Bs doesn't read Fangraphs or Baseball Reference. Frodo's big bounceback year was a 104+. Don't even look up JBJ.
2018 was awesome, and we'll never forget it. But we got a crapload more production out of our outfield this year than those guys would have given us.
And our guys are loosening up for the LCS tonight instead of preparing for their LDS elimination game.
I can't watch the laundry cart bit without thinking someone will get injured and it will be the dumbest reason to lose a guy ever since tripping over 2nd base while a player was trotting to the outfield.I didn't like that dance thing either. I don't care about the actual dancing, but it all seemed a bit contrived and forced to me.
Contrast that to being pushed in a shopping cart after a dinger - that's awesome.
I think of this every time, too! Then again, I'm a worrier and a hypochondriac, and now in my fifties I ain't a rubber band anymore, so my vicarious experience of those cart rides isn't so hot.I can't watch the laundry cart bit without thinking someone will get injured and it will be the dumbest reason to lose a guy ever since tripping over 2nd base while a player was trotting to the outfield.
I saw them yanking Schwarber out by his armpits and he's big and folded in there. Shoulder, back, ankle. So many pinch points. Not to mention anyone in the dugout is at risk when they carom down the lane. I'd love if Eovaldi on his off day got his plant foot run over or his knee stove in by the cart because of excessive celebration.
Man, that trade . . . .Speaking of Price he was removed from the Dodgers NLCS roster:
https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2021/10/dodgers-remove-david-price-billy-mckinney-for-nlcs.html
The Price redux thread would be relatively shortMan, that trade . . . .