That's correct. It also highlighted the fact that Wilt's scoring average was over 13 less when facing Russell in 1962 (37 ppg vs. Russell; 51 ppg vs rest of the NBA). I get irritated when people say that Wilt dominated Russell, when in reality Russell's overall play, in particular his defense, contributed more to his team's winning.
All you need to know is that in 1962, Russell won the MVP, not Wilt. In his own time, Wilt's accomplishments were not seen as impressive as they would become later as they emerged as more of a historical outlier.
Agree on Kobe, but I always think Kareem has been terribly underrated by most people.
Seems like every couple of years one of these lists come out, and I end up arguing with you and Kliq.
Wilt played basically his entire career with multiple Hall of Fame players. He didn't play with Magic but he did play with Paul Arizin, Guy Rodgers, Nate Thurmond, Hal Greer, Billy Cunningham, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor and Gail Goodrich.
Wilt's early Warriors teams weren't that great, but once he was traded to the 76ers and then to the Lakers his teams were pretty talented. Wilt won two titles (67, 72) and if he'd been a better big game player, it could easily have been four or five. HIs teams were probably more talented and should have won in 68 (blew a 3-1 lead to the Celtics, including a game 7 where he attempted just 9 shots), 69 (blew a 3-2 lead to the Celtics, Wilt got pulled during crunch time in Game 7), and 70 (the Willis Reed game). And they could also have won in 62 (lost Game 7 to the Celtics, Wilt scored only 22 points in the season where he averaged 50) and 66 (lost another Game 7 to the Celtics, although Wilt played well this time).
The 1969 Lakers had Wilt (somewhere in the top 8), Elgin Baylor (23) and Jerry West (14), so somewhere in the 38 to 45 range.
Kareem/Magic/Worthy was pretty awesome for the Lakers, even as Kareem was starting to decline. Magic was MVP level and Worthy was becoming an absolute monster. Three no doubt hall of famers.
This is part of why I always push for people not to underestimate Russell---I know the individual stats don't tell the story but the winning almost EVERY time: in his last 15 seasons---2 college and 13 pro---he was healthy in 14 of them and won 13 titles! Across all sorts of different supporting casts. It isn't just a coincidence...
If we even had blocks and steals, people would give a shit. Kliq does well to remind us that the pace in those days was absurd. But Russell and Wilt had games with 10 blocks. Russell definitely had games with 10 steals too.
On second glance I agree. Doc over Rudy T or Karl is rough. Spo does have the two rings.
I think Shaq is underrated; 8th isn't terrible but you could make an argument he should be higher. The way he dominated in his back-to-back-to-back years is unheard of in the modern game with the exception of Jordan. It appeared that things came so easy to him that I don't think he ever got the credit he deserved for just how insanely dominant and successful he was as a player. At his peak he was completely unstoppable; all time great defensive Centers like Hakeem and Mutombo were afraid to guard him.
This is a worse list than the players. It's missing John Kundla, who won five titles (six if you count a pre-NBA NBL title) with the Mikan Lakers. Yeah it was a million years ago, but the list with the players did a good job representing all of basketball history and it's a shame this list had to include Doc, Sloan, Spo, etc. over Kundla.
I've been scratching my head over KC on this list, but can't tell if I over or under rate him based on my green tinted glasses. Was he a right guy/right time for that team coming from the Bill Fitch years, or did he possess some coaching chops beyond putting three all time greats on the floor?
I don't think KC is one of the 15 best coaches ever, but he did coach the 74-75 Bullets to the NBA Finals. After the Celtics he spent two seasons as a .500 coach with the Supersonics. His other head coaching gigs are the San Diego Conquistadors, the New England Blizzard of the women's ABL, and Brandei's women's basketball team.
I think KC deserves credit for getting the various egos that made up the Celtics from 1983-88 to play together and win. Things could have went sideways during the 1984 Finals when the Lakers took a 2-1 series lead that could easily had been a 3-0 lead.
I agree and I do think he's a good to very good coach. It is just not clear to me he's close to the top 15 ever!
KC and Doc are on the list (Ime is the first black coach in Celtic history!) IMHO because of the frankly shameful lack of black coaches. KC is underrated. He was a big part of turning the Lakers into a running team as an assistant there and won as a head coach in Washington. He was given a bad shake because one of the rare TV entrances into a timeout showed KC let his assistant Bernie Bickerstaff do the talking. at the time KC a quiet warrior who was not a quote factory was written up as a figurehead. Further review shows his low-profile approach worked great.
Not a big deal and I like your rankings, but KC coached the Judge's Mens team https://www.brandeis.edu/magazine/2021/spring/the-brief/k.c.jones.html
Hubie was UNDER .500 for his career even if you include his two very successful ABA seasons. Spo was handed some nice toys, but he/they delivered.
I have read everything and been lucky enough to talk to some old-timers, and the guys who were around when WIlt played, if you listen, praise his abilities, his athleticism, etc. But you never hear about him making his team better or doing what it took to win. He would get crazy ideas in his head, and no coach could change his mind. Phil Jackson said he would get a charge called on him and stop going to the hoop for a month. He lead the league in assists, but that was his goal, not winning. To me that's a sign of how selfish he was. Yu read about that year they would dump it into him with some overmatched 210 pound stiff guarding him and he would yell at people to cut, so he could get an assist. If a teammate missed a layup from his pass he was pissed. It was like Westbrook demanding every uncontested defensive board. He was going to the beach playing beach volleyball on game day during the playoffs with the Lakers. The only reason he is considered a great volleyball player is he started the pro league and paid for everything as long as he was MVP.
Yeah, I've been thinking about this and Wilt reminds me almost of James Harden in some ways. Wilt was obsessed with his own statistics more than I think any other player in history, but more than that, his skill never translated to success the way you would expect. He also just quit on a bunch of teams. He quit on the Warriors and he quit on the 76ers, demanding trades both times. It's really crazy he was traded twice in his prime, that didn't happen back then. Russell, Baylor, West were never traded as active players. Oscar was traded once at the tail end of his prime. Kareem did demand a trade in his prime, but only once. If you read contemporary accounts, very few players would have chosen Wilt over Russell. Elgin, who played with Wilt, CRUSHES Wilt in his autobiography to a startling degree.
I would not be surprised at all to see this as the final list. Would also not be surprised to see a flip of Magic/Wilt or even Lebron/Kareem.
