Tough to give up Zeller, Amir and Jerebko leaving Olynyk and Zizic as the only big men heading into a guard-heavy draft.
NBA trade season
- Thread starter Devizier
- Start date
2-years ago Bogut would be perfect and definitely worth a 1st but I'm not exactly sure who fits the Celtics who will 1. come cheap 2. address rebounding issues 3. provide interior size/D presence 4. leave Celtics with payroll flexibility
For Pete's sake, can we please dispense with the Andrew Bogut talk. The guy has played 26 games this season and the only reason he made it on the court for the Warriors over the past few years was because they mostly played their death line-up and treated him like a porcelain doll when he did play, playing him only 20 minutes a night. Unless Ainge can get him for pocket lint, don't do it. I saw the Andrew Bogut story before when he was in his prime and he was fragile then. If the C's give up anything of value for him and he ends up in street clothes during the playoffs, there will be a lot of unhappy people in this forum and in Celtics land period. Or what Devizier says. He is a corpse.
If that's the case try to acquire Hield without giving up Cousins. Maybe they don't have the assets to get it done, but dumping Cousins for a guy that is a fringe rotation player right now is asinine.
Anything cannot happen in a 7-game series. The Celtics with Bogut could play a 100-game series against GSW and not win 4 games.
I can't swear to Tim Bontemps' sources, but I just heard him on the Dunc'd On podcast claiming that Boston didn't want Boogie at all. As in, Bontemps says they refused to offer even Terry Rozier for him.
Bontemps also says that the reason for the timing and the relatively meager return was that that the Kings management has wanted to trade Boogie for a long time, but Vivek wouldn't let them (no surprise there). When Vivek finally relented, management took the best offer available. They did not want to wait until Thursday and risk Vivek changing his mind. That's the best explanation I've heard for why they did this now, rather than the deadline.
Bontemps also says that the reason for the timing and the relatively meager return was that that the Kings management has wanted to trade Boogie for a long time, but Vivek wouldn't let them (no surprise there). When Vivek finally relented, management took the best offer available. They did not want to wait until Thursday and risk Vivek changing his mind. That's the best explanation I've heard for why they did this now, rather than the deadline.
They'd win at least 20. You are overstating things. No one thought the Pistons would be the Lakers either. It was all but a foregone conclusion.
I think the theory is that a pick in the 20s is the functional equivalent of "pocket lint" for a fringe contender with a surfeit of picks in the next few drafts (and two Europeans already stashed). If Bogut could give the C's 20 minutes a night in the playoffs on par with what he gave the Dubs last season, I'd sign up for that.
The reason I think you're right, however, is that Bogut doesn't seem like a good bet to deliver even that little bit of value anymore. (I haven't seen him play this year, but it sounds like he has fallen off a cliff.)
Once again, the problem with X wouldn't beat Y window-talk so its not worth making a move now is that it fully assumes that something bad doesn't happen to Y. Injuries happen. Durant missed half a season two years ago due to a foot injury. Curry has a long history of ankle injuries. Draymond Green has a long history of, per some people on this forum, punching people in the nuts and getting suspended for it.
If the C's have a chance to improve incrementally at a reasonable price and that includes some of their picks, they should do it given where they are in the NBA landscape. With a few breaks, they have a shot at another banner.
If the C's have a chance to improve incrementally at a reasonable price and that includes some of their picks, they should do it given where they are in the NBA landscape. With a few breaks, they have a shot at another banner.
Its not so much his effectiveness, though his numbers are down excepting rebounds. Its that the guy is held together with spit, bailing wire and cheap packing tape. Check out his game log...he is about as dependable to show up to work as a heroin addict.
I agree, but a C's deal that didn't involve one of the BKN picks would likely have been something like Avery Bradley + Jaylen Brown + cap fodder. I could see those guys, plus the addition-by-subtraction of losing Boogie's drama, leaving the Kings as good or even slightly better in the short term (particularly since the "cap fodder" would likely be someone like Zeller or Jerebko who would be useful in the right situation -- there isn't a Theo Ratliff-equivalent just sitting around).
This makes me think Bontemps is right regarding ownership's role here. I bet Vlade didn't have the okay two days ago, so when Vivek signed off, he took the best deal available.
Really amazing to watch:
They're really vying with the Knicks for the biggest tire-fire in the NBA.
They're really vying with the Knicks for the biggest tire-fire in the NBA.
That tweet, that he does not understand negotiating, is way off base.
Divac is doing a great job at covering his ass by clearly throwing his owner under the bus thereby potentially saving his career when he is predictably fired by said owner.
Divac is doing a great job at covering his ass by clearly throwing his owner under the bus thereby potentially saving his career when he is predictably fired by said owner.
This is terrible value for Cousins, but I think people are mistaken in thinking that a $1 for $1 trade was ever going to be on the table for Sacramento.
Boogie has gotten multiple coaches canned and is at least part of the reason the Kings traded Thomas away for basically nothing. Most of his teammates have hated him. He intentionally blows about 5 plays per game out of spite. The rest of the league knows this, and few coaches or GM's want to deal with him.
They could have held out for more, but whether they traded him for $0.25 on the dollar or $0.50 on the dollar they were always going to be the loser in trading Boogie.
Boogie has gotten multiple coaches canned and is at least part of the reason the Kings traded Thomas away for basically nothing. Most of his teammates have hated him. He intentionally blows about 5 plays per game out of spite. The rest of the league knows this, and few coaches or GM's want to deal with him.
They could have held out for more, but whether they traded him for $0.25 on the dollar or $0.50 on the dollar they were always going to be the loser in trading Boogie.
Are you kidding? You must not have seen the Kings without Cousins whip the Cs. The Kings are going all-in: on David Joerger.
I think Vivek was misquoted - he actually said "Seth Curry" potential but source misheard him.
Windhorst and Lowe's latest podcast: Celtics did not want Cousins. There was never any evidence that they were interested. It would have just taken Jaylen Brown and 1 1st round pick(non-Nets pick). It's a commentary on Boogie's position in the league.
At the end of the podcast, Windhorst said watch out for Jimmy Butler to Boston. He said that Boston has "upped their ante" in trade talks for Butler. He adds that the Eastern Conference is going to look much different come Thursday afternoon.
At the end of the podcast, Windhorst said watch out for Jimmy Butler to Boston. He said that Boston has "upped their ante" in trade talks for Butler. He adds that the Eastern Conference is going to look much different come Thursday afternoon.
What Bontemps and Vlade each said makes this post 100% correct.
When Vlade said he had a "better offer two days ago" it could have really been a week ago, or five days ago. Vlade has been smoking and drinking enough to kill a fish I am sure, he probably has no clue what day it is. That could have been Plumlee or Nurkic for all we know, and of course it may have not been "pulled from the table" but a deal could have been made with those players with other teams.
1-Vlade was told by Vivek "two days ago" when he had a "better deal" on the table that he could not trade Boogie.
2-Yesterday he was told he could trade Boogie by Vivek.
3-Vlade took the best offer not available as quick as he could not wanting to risk Vivek changing his mind again.
Vlade knows he needs to start to rebuild now and people saying that any team could have beaten the offer don't have or aren't considering Vlade's time table. A 2018 or 2019 first round draft pick from the team getting Boogie isn't worth the 15th pick in the 2017 draft to him and the Kings. Good Lord! I'm talking myself in to Vlade making the best of a horribly shitty situation all around.
They now probably get their own, or sixers is the swap is used, pick in the top 10. The Pelicans pick which is probably 13 - 19 and the Sixers 2nd round pick, which is a high second round pick .
Good job Vlade! (Considering)
It's somewhat strange that Boston wanted nothing to do with cousins given that Ainge is repeatedly tried to trade for him in the past. Wasn't there even a Boogie for Rondo swap that got nixed because Rondo didn't want to go to Sacramento at some point?
One thing that has changed is they have IT now, and he 100% gave his input from the inside.
One thing that hasn't changed since then is Boogie.
So I'm gonna post a fake trade proposal here for feedback since if we had a trade proposal thread I can't find it.
Apparently David Aldridge was on NBA TV and said the holdup in Butler discussions is that CHI wants a deal centered on Crowder and BKN 2017, and the Celtics won't budge on it. Based on working around that framework:
CHI OUT
Jimmy Butler
Bobby Portis
BOS OUT
Jae Crowder
BKN 2018
Tyler Zeller
Demetrius Jackson
Two of (rights to Yabusele, BOS 2018, MEM 2019, LAC 2019).
It's probably light on value for Chicago, but any deal that actually happens is likely to be light for Chicago.
Apparently David Aldridge was on NBA TV and said the holdup in Butler discussions is that CHI wants a deal centered on Crowder and BKN 2017, and the Celtics won't budge on it. Based on working around that framework:
CHI OUT
Jimmy Butler
Bobby Portis
BOS OUT
Jae Crowder
BKN 2018
Tyler Zeller
Demetrius Jackson
Two of (rights to Yabusele, BOS 2018, MEM 2019, LAC 2019).
It's probably light on value for Chicago, but any deal that actually happens is likely to be light for Chicago.
Look at that offer from Chicago's perspective.
With all due respect to Jae, he doesn't help a rebuilding team. I really don't understand why Chicago is hung up on him. He is what he is.
2018 BKN pick, wait another year to start the rebuild? Not many teams will give a star to wait to start a build.
Zeller is nothing
Jackson is pretty much nothing.
Yabusele - Wild card, but he isn't Draymond Green. (I hope he is, but he isn't.)
Boston 18 - Late pick worth very little. Mem or LAC picks - complete unknowns would work for Korver but not a star like Butler.
That should, note should, be a non starter to Chicago. For their future it is the 2018 Brooklyn Pick for Butler, which may not be much less than what he could fetch depending on where it is, but this isn't Boogie, they dont need to him. Then again, I think they or Indy would be crazy to trade either of their stars.
With all due respect to Jae, he doesn't help a rebuilding team. I really don't understand why Chicago is hung up on him. He is what he is.
2018 BKN pick, wait another year to start the rebuild? Not many teams will give a star to wait to start a build.
Zeller is nothing
Jackson is pretty much nothing.
Yabusele - Wild card, but he isn't Draymond Green. (I hope he is, but he isn't.)
Boston 18 - Late pick worth very little. Mem or LAC picks - complete unknowns would work for Korver but not a star like Butler.
That should, note should, be a non starter to Chicago. For their future it is the 2018 Brooklyn Pick for Butler, which may not be much less than what he could fetch depending on where it is, but this isn't Boogie, they dont need to him. Then again, I think they or Indy would be crazy to trade either of their stars.
Stupid question - is it worth giving up a bunch of assets now for Butler or do you take a shot at Hayward in the offseason first? Butler is better than Hayward perhaps much better? But Hayward might only cost $$$. Would Hayward plus using assets to upgrade the 4/5 end up with a better balance? I'll admit I have no really thought it through at all though.
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Butler is better, but not much better than Hayward. Certainly not better enough for, that all things being equal, you trade a bunch of assets for Butler. But...the million dollar question is whether Hayward will sign here.
Jimmy Butler is also on a below market contract. If you pursue Hayward you are going to tie up an additional $12,000,000 in salary and therefore will need to keep those picks to be able to backfill the roster with rotation players.
I like it for New Orleans even thought its obviously a somewhat flawed fit. Probably the best chance they were going to get to upgrade the talent on their roster to something that might be better than 8 seed fodder given that they didn't really have premium assets to move.
I think you wait, make your pick in June and push hard for Hayward to get the best of both worlds, or close enough to it. Then you have the ability to make moves with any number of roster players and BK18 if you want. But I'm generally in favor of patience.
So the thought is this:
They want Crowder, and to be honest I think it makes a ton of sense, he's a really good player who has developed into a very good shooter, he doesn't give you Butler's on-ball creation, but he gives you most of the defense and a much better shooter. Also he has maybe the best non-rookie deal in basketball 6.8, 7.3 and 7.8 after this year. He can either be a piece in a quick turnaround, a piece in a longer term turnaround (only 26) or he can be an extremely attractive trade piece that you can flip for either young guys or picks.
Brooklyn 2018, only pushes you back 1 year on your draft pick, and it's likely to be a top 5 pick in what looks like a very good draft. Yes it's worth less than the 2017 pick, but it's a real asset whether you draft with it or move it along in a trade.
Zeller is supposed to be nothing, he's 8M in expiring that is needed to make the trade work under the cap. (overall this opens about 10M more in cap for them).
Jackson is a flier at their biggest position of need, he's not a top piece, but he's an intriguing option as a backup point who can score for a team that has a disaster at PG right now.
The other two pieces, well those are going to depend on who you talk to, Yabu is probably the equivalent of a pick 13-18 this year with the added bonus that he seems amenable to an extra year of being stashed. The others, well, all depends on what you think is going to happen with 2 aging playoff teams (personally I'd take the 2019 LAC pick, that could go south in a hurry if Paul/Griffin both have injury issues).
Now sure, it isn't 1 for 1 value for Butler, but YOU NEVER GET FULL VALUE FOR A STAR!, Chicago, whatever their reasons has let Butler sit on the block, now they could pull an Orlando and keep pulling him back until he forces a move, but either way, it seems unlikely they ever get full value for him.
On the whole I think it's a nice flexible package, they can rebuild fast or slow after assessing this offseason (can they dump Rondo? Does Wade opt out of $23M, can they use the cap space in that instance to pick up multiple guys to build around w/ Crowder?) if not they can move Crowder for a nice package to a playoff team that needs a wing.
I think it is worth going for Butler if it takes only 1 of the BKN picks (or Brown) and 1 of Bradley/Crowder, plus sundry other pieces. In general I think you'd rather have top end talent than depth in the NBA, and I'd put Butler at a decent amount better than Hayward as an all-around player, Hayward is the better outside shooter, but I'd have Butler as the same or better in every other category. There are only so many minutes to go around.
Or, the thought could be this:
Chicago Sports News @ChiSportUpdates 54m54 minutes ago
#Bulls and Celtics haven't held substantive talks about Jimmy Butler since June. ( Via @KCJHoop)
Chicago Sports News @ChiSportUpdates 54m54 minutes ago
#Bulls and Celtics haven't held substantive talks about Jimmy Butler since June. ( Via @KCJHoop)
One note. That twitter is just some dude aggregating and KC Johnson didn't tweet anything like that recently (or as far as I can tell write it in his column).
How close they are to a deal is definitely up for debate, but I trust Aldridge enough to say that they have at least had some calls recently.
But you theoretically are also trading away Crowder who is on a way below market deal. It's definitely not a simple calculation
Im shocked more athletes dont pull that stunt more often.... especially during trade deadline/offseason... Its harmless fun and sets the sports world ablaze... They could then post a follow up tweet like a day later and say that it was in reference to some food or something....
Man, how did I miss that.
Honestly it's probably a GarPax leak where he is parsing the word "substantive".
Woj said they've had talks but haven't gotten close to done: