Nick Saban / College Coaches in the NFL

[jose melendez]

I love it when renowned college coaches fail spectacularly in the NFL. I really do.

People can say it's a different kind of coaching all they want, but the real difference is that it's a different kind of GMing. In the NFL, it's a more or less balanced playing field, and in college, it's almost entirely based on recruiting/willingness or ability to cheat.

I will never, ever believe the greatest college coach, Saban, I suppose, is anymore than mid in actual coaching until he does it in the NFL.

 

[BaseballJones]

The talent gap between Alabama and Ole Miss is FAR greater than the talent gap between the Patriots and the Jets. For real. Which is why teams like Alabama keep winning - they keep getting all the 4 and 5 star recruits, while programs like Ole Miss occasionally get a four star recruit but mainly three star recruits.

Since 2008, Saban has had no fewer than 11 five-star recruits in each class. It's a world of difference.

Look here:

https://247sports.com/Season/2021-Football/CollegeTeamTalentComposite/?Conference=SEC

Compare Alabama to Auburn.

Alabama (85 total)
- 14 five-star
- 60 four-star
- 11 three-star (so not a single player on their scholarship roster is anything lower than a three-star recruit...not one)

Auburn (81 total)
- 2 five-star
- 44 four-star
- 32 three-star (so they have three guys who aren't even three-star players)

The talent gap is mammoth between Alabama and Auburn. And it shows. Actually it's amazing that Auburn was able to hang in there with the Tide this year in their game. Rivalry games can be like that, I guess.

The NFL talent gap is way way way smaller, so coaching has a lot more to do with success than it does at the college level. College success is MOSTLY recruiting. Not all, of course, but mostly. It's one reason why Syracuse (ugh) will struggle for the foreseeable future.

Syracuse (71 total)
- 0 five-star
- 3 four-star
- 65 three-star

I mean, you roll out a team of almost exclusively three-star players against a Clemson, who has 10/40/30 - mostly five- and four-star recruits, and you're going to get an ass whooping most of the time. (thought amazingly, SU has played Clemson pretty tough the last 5-6 years)

 

[Hoya81]

I love it when renowned college coaches fail spectacularly in the NFL. I really do.

People can say it's a different kind of coaching all they want, but the real difference is that it's a different kind of GMing. In the NFL, it's a more or less balanced playing field, and in college, it's almost entirely based on recruiting/willingness or ability to cheat.

I will never, ever believe the greatest college coach, Saban, I suppose, is anymore than mid in actual coaching until he does it in the NFL.

Saban did a decent job in his first year in Miami. If he ends up with Brees instead of Culpepper in 2006, the next decade in the AFC East is way different.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

The talent gap between Alabama and Ole Miss is FAR greater than the talent gap between the Patriots and the Jets. For real. Which is why teams like Alabama keep winning - they keep getting all the 4 and 5 star recruits, while programs like Ole Miss occasionally get a four star recruit but mainly three star recruits.

This is true but the talent gap between Alabama and schools like Georgia/OSU/Oklahoma/Clemson really isn't that large when measured by number of four and five star recruits. And there are numerous other programs that could easily get right into that mix if they had a couple successful years on the field that then led to an uptick in recruiting. Alabama certainly wasn't in that top class of recruiting schools before Saban arrived. So Saban has done a ton to both elevate Alabama back into that top group of most desirable programs and, once among the top group in terms of talent, to produce results far above what would be expected based on recruiting alone.

Among college coaches in the last 40 years, the only other guy to win more than two national championships is Urban Meyer with three. Saban has seven. That takes so much more than just being a good recruiter.

 

[BaseballJones]

This is true but the talent gap between Alabama and schools like Georgia/OSU/Oklahoma/Clemson really isn't that large when measured by number of four and five star recruits. And there are numerous other programs that could easily get right into that mix if they had a couple successful years on the field that then led to an uptick in recruiting. Alabama certainly wasn't in that top class of recruiting schools before Saban arrived. So Saban has done a ton to both elevate Alabama back into that top group of most desirable programs and, once among the top group in terms of talent, to produce results far above what would be expected based on recruiting alone.

Among college coaches in the last 40 years, the only other guy to win more than two national championships is Urban Meyer with three. Saban has seven. That takes so much more than just being a good recruiter.

Agreed. Saban is an all-time great college coach. When matched up against a comparable program, coaching can and often does make the difference. But coaching isn't what gets Alabama to the top tier year in and year out. That's mainly recruiting.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

Agreed. Saban is an all-time great college coach. When matched up against a comparable program, coaching can and often does make the difference. But coaching isn't what gets Alabama to the top tier year in and year out. That's mainly recruiting.

Coaching is a massive part of staying in the top tier year in and year out. Even if you are top five in terms of talent, its pretty easy to have a bad few years and then eventually fall out of that top tier as recruits go elsewhere. USC and Florida State were top five in terms of five and four stars until very recently, they just went 9-17 combined this past year. Or go to the Texas thread on SOSH to see how excellent recruiting can be attended by on-field mediocrity.

There's no doubt that Alabama has an advantage over most competitors but that has always been true for whoever is on top in college football at any given time. Yet nobody else in 40 years has sustained their stay near the top for so long nor translated it in the same way into National Championships. I root against Alabama in basically every game because its boring. But what Saban has done is completely incredible and very much similar to what BB has done at the NFL level in terms of the degree of success compared to peers in the last 40 years.

 

[Pablo's TB Lover]

I mean, this was pinned in the forum just last Friday:

Be respectful of threads about other teams. Keep noise out of those threads. Not everything needs to be brought back to the Patriots. The latest Seahawks thread on the potential of trading Russell Wilson is a great example. The Dolphins thread is fantastic and we applaud Dolphin fans for their contribution to this site. Same with the Raiders thread

There are inherent advantages to the college system and namely high major college football, and besides Meyer being a great X and O guy for the college game, he took advantage of all the extraneous stuff like:

- A cap on hours a student-athlete can practice each week, by extension this is less time the coaches have to put in. (While Saban would likely put in non-stop hours no matter what level he's coaching at, I get the sense based on this year's findings Meyer was using some of this excess time to sniff around at dive bars for co-eds.)

- Because of the hassle of students transferring and the power dynamic of being unpaid until recently while the coaching staff is paid handsomely, coaches don't need to be as concerned with coaching out of fear vs coaching to inspire. The comment about firing whomever leaked the story was a classic statement by a guy who coaches out of fear. That doesn't play in the NFL (sorry I didn't make the obligatory spelling out: National Football League), these are grown-ass men who get paid.

- The recruiting differences that a name can bring as referenced above. To build on this, BC may be in the same "league" (BCS) as OSU, but their yearly revenue is $30 million as opposed to OSU's $120 million or so. A big-time college coach has no such economic advantages in the NFL. In fact you could argue Jacksonville has as big a competitive disadvantage as a revenue-sharing franchise could have, based on their small market in the relative vicinity of established franchises (Dolphins, Bucs, Falcons). The Bills and Saints are technically smaller markets but have a more long-standing and regional following.

Edit: Meyer is looking a lot like the Steve Spurrier experience, except the latter had a brand of offense(TM) that could at least keep Washington afloat at times. Meyer has the style that plays much better in college, except without a gimmick that can work in the NFL time to time.

 

[jose melendez]

Saban did a decent job in his first year in Miami. If he ends up with Brees instead of Culpepper in 2006, the next decade in the AFC East is way different.

Yeah, but in the pros, you have to get things right. You can't just fix it the next year by bringing in the next top guy.

 

[MuzzyField]

Yeah, but in the pros, you have to get things right. You can't just fix it the next year by bringing in the next top guy.

In college at the Urban and Nick level there is no waiting until next year, the next top guy is already on the roster and there is likely another one waiting in the wings.

The transfer portal and NIL era are going to challenge the deep depth going forward, but up until now the next guy up was a 4 or 5-star. Under this system I bet keeping the starting 5-stars in line was pretty easy.

 

[Captaincoop]

I love it when renowned college coaches fail spectacularly in the NFL. I really do.

People can say it's a different kind of coaching all they want, but the real difference is that it's a different kind of GMing. In the NFL, it's a more or less balanced playing field, and in college, it's almost entirely based on recruiting/willingness or ability to cheat.

I will never, ever believe the greatest college coach, Saban, I suppose, is anymore than mid in actual coaching until he does it in the NFL.

I'm tempted to agree with you. Alabama found a good coach with absolutely no morals, and that's really all they need. Would love to see what he would do in the NFL right now.

 

[Super Nomario]

So as not to derail the Urban Meyer thread, I thought I'd respond in a new thread. Dopes, there are some other (mostly Saban-specific) posts that should also be moved here.

People can say it's a different kind of coaching all they want, but the real difference is that it's a different kind of GMing. In the NFL, it's a more or less balanced playing field, and in college, it's almost entirely based on recruiting/willingness or ability to cheat.

I will never, ever believe the greatest college coach, Saban, I suppose, is anymore than mid in actual coaching until he does it in the NFL.

I think you're right that a lot of the college game is recruiting and the team-building playing field is more level in the NFL between the cap and draft. Calling Saban "mid" is a bridge too far though. He's at least proven he's a very effective NFL DC, he was Belichick's first hire in Cleveland, and his performance was decent in Miami (15-17 in two years; they went 4-12 the year before he got there and 1-15 the year after).

Saban did a decent job in his first year in Miami. If he ends up with Brees instead of Culpepper in 2006, the next decade in the AFC East is way different.

Yeah and arguably going 6-10 with washed Culpepper, Joey Harrington, and Cleo Lemon is just as impressive as going 9-7 with Gus Frerotte (no world-beater himself but an actual starting QB).

Yeah, but in the pros, you have to get things right. You can't just fix it the next year by bringing in the next top guy.

The flipside is even when you hit on a Mac Jones or a Tua or a JaMarcus Russell or whoever, you still have to bring in the next guy; you can't keep your studs for 8-10 years like you can in the NFL.

I think the lesson from Saban's Miami tenure is not that college coaches can't coach in the NFL, it's that any coach can fail if he doesn't have the QB. You don't need to go any further than Belichick's Cleveland tenure to see that. How long does BB last in NE if they pick Tim Rattay over Tom Brady in 2000? But he made the right call, Saban made the wrong one, and the rest is history.

In some ways I think Belichick and Saban learned the same lesson from their first HC stints: you need a QB. Belichick hardly drafted any in his Cleveland years (just a 12th and a 3rd in 5 years) but consistently drafted guys even when he didn't need them in NE, including Brady. Meanwhile, Saban decided he didn't want to leave his career up to to the roulette wheel of Brees vs Culpepper medical reports (or Brady vs Rattay) and moved to college, where he has more control.

 

[jose melendez]

Zach Thomas wanted to fight him, so there's that

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

In some ways I think Belichick and Saban learned the same lesson from their first HC stints: you need a QB. Belichick hardly drafted any in his Cleveland years (just a 12th and a 3rd in 5 years) but consistently drafted guys even when he didn't need them in NE, including Brady. Meanwhile, Saban decided he didn't want to leave his career up to to the roulette wheel of Brees vs Culpepper medical reports (or Brady vs Rattay) and moved to college, where he has more control.

Saban has said almost exactly this about his time in Miami. I think he talked about it earlier but certainly in a recent interview he said the following:

Nick Saban on Drew Brees failing his physical with Miami team doctors and how it led to his Dolphins departure

"[The decision] probably would have changed my career because when it happened I was like very, very upset that I couldn't control my destiny because of somebody else's decision as a coach.

"Knowing the NFL, if you don't have a quarterback, then you don't have a chance."

"I made the decision that maybe it would be better to go to someplace where you can control your own destiny."

 

[Dogman]

Thanks SN. I moved the posts but for some reason they appear above your thread starting post.

I'll see if I can move them below your opening post.

 

[Super Nomario]

Thanks SN. I moved the posts but for some reason they appear above your thread starting post.

I'll see if I can move them below your opening post.

I think it's fine, it's chronological this way.

 

[Dogman]

Fair enough.

 

[lexrageorge]

I have to believe Saban would have done well as NFL head coach had he been given either a better QB or a 2nd chance. I seem to recall a lot of the same being said about Pete Carroll, and he had 2 NFL head coaching stints, neither of which went that well. After winning at USC, he got himself into a pretty good position at Seattle and will be regarded as a good NFL coach, even if some here may disagree.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

One thing about Saban is that his teams are consistently among the best in college with situational awareness and situational play. They are the closest thing to an NFL team there is. I think the argument can be made pretty strongly that if hadn't been for that fact they wouldn't have a chance at the national championship this year, and possibly in other years too.

This is so much harder in college than the pros. Limited practice time and large rosters and dealing with 20 year olds is probably why we see so many college football games decided in part by errors and poor situational play as other things. In some sense it's part of the charm of college football -- it's not nearly as polished as the pros. But with Saban it kind of is.