You know who would not have a prayer of having an 11 or 12 year career like they did in a previous era? John Bagley
Too slow, too fat, can't shoot.
Too slow, too fat, can't shoot.
Bird would average 40 points and 15 assists per game in today's NBA, no doubt about it.I think the only guys who would be better would be guys who were great shooters, Bird, Kerr, etc. Because taking so many more 3s a game would be a huge asset.
I think the guys who were physically superior in their era, Jordan for example would be much worse. Defenses are much better, both in terms of scheme and athleticism. Jordan was 6'6" and one of the best athletes of his generation, he mostly played against less athletic smaller guys than himself, and against truly basic defensive screens with rules that benefited ISO. If he played now, his average defender is just as big and arguably as athletic as him, there are more complex schemes, a slight uptick in FTr doesn't make up for that.
I mean.. does this assume that Jordan is exactly the same and hasn’t benefitted at all from modern strength training? Jordan had a drive you can’t teach.. there’s no way in my mind he wouldn’t find a way to compete at a high level. His jumping ability is still on par.. and he can still run.. I think he’d draw as many fouls as harden or LeBron..I think the only guys who would be better would be guys who were great shooters, Bird, Kerr, etc. Because taking so many more 3s a game would be a huge asset.
I think the guys who were physically superior in their era, Jordan for example would be much worse. Defenses are much better, both in terms of scheme and athleticism. Jordan was 6'6" and one of the best athletes of his generation, he mostly played against less athletic smaller guys than himself, and against truly basic defensive screens with rules that benefited ISO. If he played now, his average defender is just as big and arguably as athletic as him, there are more complex schemes, a slight uptick in FTr doesn't make up for that.
I feel like I remember a story on this site? Or was it on the radio.. of a guy playing bagley at pickup... he started off cocky and bagley just handed him his lunch. Said by the end he was calling him Mr. Bagley.. not sure where I heard that.You know who would not have a prayer of having an 11 or 12 year career like they did in a previous era? John Bagley
Too slow, too fat, can't shoot.
I guess the one thing I’m mainly focused on things like rebounding. Players in today’s game far more often go to ball instead of grabbing a man and boxing out.. if done right that ball can fall to the floor.. and maybe I’ve been watching the celts more who seem to not box out at all..I strongly disagree. Modern players are much better shooters, play in more complicated systems, and their skill level blows an 80s player out of the water. I'm not sure what those teams would do against a Giannis, Durant, or Kawhi. Harden might average 45 a game in 1984.
https://mobile.twitter.com/itsantwright/status/873712385202298880
The video in this tweet is obviously a joke (and taken out of context) but it actually does do a good job highlighting how Magic Johnson only drives with his right hand. Can you imagine if Bird tried to back down Kawhi from just below the 3 point line?
The defense is also slow and gives up a ton of space.
That video is hilarious. Let's pick a bad sequence and shred it. Draymond would put McHale in the blender? That guy is insane. Draymond would have a hard time scoring a basket on McHale, and he wouldn't have had a prayer of stopping him.I strongly disagree. Modern players are much better shooters, play in more complicated systems, and their skill level blows an 80s player out of the water. I'm not sure what those teams would do against a Giannis, Durant, or Kawhi. Harden might average 45 a game in 1984.
https://mobile.twitter.com/itsantwright/status/873712385202298880
The video in this tweet is obviously a joke (and taken out of context) but it actually does do a good job highlighting how Magic Johnson only drives with his right hand. Can you imagine if Bird tried to back down Kawhi from just below the 3 point line?
The defense is also slow and gives up a ton of space.
Who could guard him when he played-- especially since they changed the rules expressly to benefit him? Just say that a player can't use his big butt or his forearm to knock a defender who has clearly established position back two or three feet. Then he might be guarded. Chamberlain is another player who couldn't be guarded then or now given the current rules.Who guards Shaq in the modern nba?
Going off topic, but that head-to-head comparison between Russell and Wilt is often cited as "Wilt dominating Russell" statistically. But, IMO, that is a flawed analysis, as it misses a very important context.Hakeem really took it to Robinson in that one playoff series in 1995, but Robinson still put up a line of 23.8 points, 11.3 rebounds, 2.7 assists, 1.5 steals, and 2.2 blocks. The guy played great - just ran into an absolute monster at a time when Hakeem was just in another world.
Head to head, their numbers are very, very comparable:
42 games played head to head.
Robinson: 48.8% FG, 14.3 FGA, 19.6 points, 11.2 rebounds, 2.9 assists, 2.2 steals, 3.3 blocks, 30-12 record
Olajuwon: 44.1% FG, 20.0 FGA, 21.9 points, 11.2 rebounds, 2.8 assists, 1.9 steals, 3.4 blocks, 12-30 record
So yes, Hakeem was just in another zone in that playoff series - one of the most incredible performances I've ever seen, especially considering the caliber of his opponent, but head to head, the two of them were absolute equals. It's a total myth that Robinson didn't have "it", or that Hakeem was the more dominant player. That one series, yes, no doubt, an all-time great performance by Olajuwan. But throughout their careers? It's just not true.
For the record, if we're using head to head numbers to determine "ass kicking", then you should take a look at Wilt vs. Russell.
For comparison, using only the stats that were kept in Russell/Chamberlain's days:
Robinson vs. Hakeem
Robinson: 30-12 (.714), 48.8% FG, 19.6 points, 11.2 rebounds, 2.9 assists
Olajuwon: 12-30 (.286), 44.1% FG, 21.9 points, 11.2 rebounds, 2.8 assists
Russell vs. Chamberlain
Russell: 57-37 (.606), 37.0% FG, 14.2 points, 22.9 rebounds, 4.4 assists
Chamberlain: 37-57 (.394), 48.8% FG, 29.9 points, 28.2 rebounds, 3.8 assists
Chamberlain dominated Russell one on one FAR more than Olajuwon dominated Robinson. And Robinson's team beat Olajuwan's team at a higher rate than Russell's beat Chamberlain's.
I think we're agreeing..but your main point was that he'd have trouble on pick and rolls. I think the major advantage he brings on the offensive end and as a rim protector would make up for it.Who could guard him when he played-- especially since they changed the rules expressly to benefit him? Just say that a player can't use his big butt or his forearm to knock a defender who has clearly established position back two or three feet. Then he might be guarded. Chamberlain is another player who couldn't be guarded then or now given the current rules.
When they eliminated hand checking they went too far. Out on the perimeter, if you breathe on a guy it's a foul. As a result, the flopping has become excessive. Meanwhile, on the block, most anything goes. I think the league has to overlook some incidental contact out beyond the three point line and start calling a few more offensive fouls (and three seconds) in the post, to even things out.
Well, I am old enough to have seen Russell, and no one would be running high pick and rolls against him, that's for sure. He was incredibly quick--both as a leaper and laterally- and also incredibly smart. In today's game he'd just beat his man down the floor for layups and dunks. He'd also be a terror on the offensive glass and pass the ball out to his three point shooters.
I assume the argument is just moving the player. Jordan would be good, but honestly I don't know that he'd be better than Harden who is stronger and a much better shooter. He'd probably be somewhere between DeRozan and Harden., that is an All-Star, to maybe at best an MVP candidate, rather than the best player of his era.I mean.. does this assume that Jordan is exactly the same and hasn’t benefitted at all from modern strength training? Jordan had a drive you can’t teach.. there’s no way in my mind he wouldn’t find a way to compete at a high level. His jumping ability is still on par.. and he can still run.. I think he’d draw as many fouls as harden or LeBron..
Edit: Harden is 6’-5”
Jordan is arguably the best player ever.... he also played in a much less athletic era, there's no shame in that. Basically except for true size based freaks like Shaq, every NBA player from today is a bigger, faster, higher jumping, better athlete than comparably placed NBA players who played before 2005. It's like any other sport, Usain Bolt would obliterate every previous 100 meter runner, and if you put him in a time machine and sent him to 2040 he'd get smoked.Bill Russell would be a beast today - but heck, he was a beast in his own day, as well. And comparing Jordan to DeMarr freaking DeRozan should be grounds for - well, I'm not sure exactly, but something. Jordan would dominate DeRozan (and likely Harden, for that matter) in literally any type of contest you could come up with. Jordan lived on dominating - DeRozan...
His stats compare very favorably to Harden...with Jordan being better at defense. Harden shoots a ton more threes, and free throws, but they score similar points per game. Harden is shorter but weighs 40 lbs more or so. I think Jordan would gain the weight he needed and he would've learned to shoot the three better. His three point percentage is worse than Harden, but in that day it wasn't a huge thing. I'm sure if shooters from that era focused as much as the guys now do on long range shooting that they'd get better at it. Jordan took less than a three a game. But his shooting percentage inside three was very good. Watching how Harden gets to the hoop or Gianis or any number of other players..and the lack of rim protection in comparison... I don't see any reason that Jordan couldn't get to the rim at will even in todays game. I also think people undervalue his competitiveness. The guy had a crazy motor and drive to win. He's one player I'm fairly confident would make the adjustment. Perhaps not the MVP of the league? but I wouldn't bet against him.I assume the argument is just moving the player. Jordan would be good, but honestly I don't know that he'd be better than Harden who is stronger and a much better shooter. He'd probably be somewhere between DeRozan and Harden., that is an All-Star, to maybe at best an MVP candidate, rather than the best player of his era.
I'm sorry but basketball has changed, but not that much. I think some people are way overvaluing today's players and vice versa. But Jordan legit dunked from the free throw line. Not the Dwight Howard sort of throwing it in..but for real. Some leaping ability is beyond generational differences. The basket hasn't changed height so you only have to jump so high. Jordan also played great defense. If Jordan bulked up a little bit and took more threes as he would in today's game..he'd be at the least Harden..but I still think better...at least because he played both sides of the ball. Also..what BaseballJones said...if players weren't allowed to hand check him getting down the lane? He'd blow by people like Gianis does...or Harden does. He'd be going to the hoop a ton.Jordan is arguably the best player ever.... he also played in a much less athletic era, there's no shame in that. Basically except for true size based freaks like Shaq, every NBA player from today is a bigger, faster, higher jumping, better athlete than comparably placed NBA players who played before 2005. It's like any other sport, Usain Bolt would obliterate every previous 100 meter runner, and if you put him in a time machine and sent him to 2040 he'd get smoked.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.htmlJordan was the greatest mid-range shooter of all-time. If he was born 20 years later I have no doubt he would have been an excellent three point shooter.
I'm old enough to have seen Prime MJ. I think he'd be really good in the current NBA, as I said his floor would be an All-Star, his ceiling an MVP candidate. My point was that he wouldn't be the clear best player in the world. As to 3s, he got pretty decent, but comparing his 200 something 3PA seasons to Harden's seasons with 3-5 times that number is crazy also he shot 33% on about 1800 attempts overall, there are highs and lows. The sheer volume at high rates is what makes Harden insane, now maybe Jordan could match that, but I wouldn't count on it.https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html
Look at 95 and 96.. he shot the most threes of his career and both percentages are better than any of Harden's best years.
I feel like with these post we should have to say what our ages are..just to see if those arguing today's game are younger or actually saw Jordan play in his prime other than just highlight reels.
I wasn't comparing him to Gianis. I was comparing his ability to get to the basket. I can't remember if it was you.. or another poster that was claiming the Defenses in the new NBA are so much more complex that Jordan couldn't get to the rim or would be defended better. I'm saying that I see Harden, Gianis, etc. get to the rim fairly easily...and I would think Jordan in his prime would have the same ability even if you took 90s Jordan into today.I'm old enough to have seen Prime MJ. I think he'd be really good in the current NBA, as I said his floor would be an All-Star, his ceiling an MVP candidate. My point was that he wouldn't be the clear best player in the world. As to 3s, he got pretty decent, but comparing his 200 something 3PA seasons to Harden's seasons with 3-5 times that number is crazy also he shot 33% on about 1800 attempts overall, there are highs and lows. The sheer volume at high rates is what makes Harden insane, now maybe Jordan could match that, but I wouldn't count on it.
As to the rest, people comparing him to Giannis are crazy, Giannis is 7 ft tall, ridiculously long and faster than Jordan was by a bit, the difference between not only the player quality, but also the defensive schemes is huge.
Now if we change it and it's Jordan born in the 90s instead of dropping Prime Jordan into the league, maybe he has a shot at being Lebron/Durant good.
That was me. I was on a summer team and the better guys, would get nba workouts and some went to the league. A guy who eventually played with Charlotte, got called to workout for the Celtics. So this was a guy who played in the nba right after this summer.I feel like I remember a story on this site? Or was it on the radio.. of a guy playing bagley at pickup... he started off cocky and bagley just handed him his lunch. Said by the end he was calling him Mr. Bagley.. not sure where I heard that.
Larry Bird never made more than 98 three pointers in a season. Only once has James Harden made fewer than 98 in a season. When he was 20 years old, playing 22 minutes a game. Harden made more three pointers this past November than Bird made in his MVP season of 1985.PS - Good lord Harden took more than 13 three pointers a GAME? Holy crap the NBA has changed.
Jordan's 1995-97 numbers are inflated because the NBA moved in the 3-point line for three years, so you can't directly compare the percentages. When the league moved it back in 97-98, his 3P% dropped to .238. Also, you can't compare percentages without considering volume. 37% on 13 attempts/game is a better shooter than 42% on 3 attempts/game.Jordan vs. Harden from three-point range. Take their top 4 seasons' worth of 3-point field goal attempts, which is an indicator, at least for Jordan, that he's using the shot more as a weapon rather than as an oddity.
Harden's top four seasons:
2018-19 - 13.2 per game, 36.8%
2017-18 - 10.0 per game, 36.7%
2016-17 - 9.3 per game, 34.7%
2015-16 - 8.0 per game, 35.9%
Total (4 seasons): 3ptFG% - 36.1%
Jordan's top four seasons:
1996-97 - 3.6 per game, 37.4%
1995-96 - 3.2 per game, 42.7%
1989-90 - 3.0 per game, 37.6%
1992-93 - 2.9 per game, 35.2%
Total (4 seasons): 3ptFG% - 38.9%
So when he put his mind to it (again, relative to the era in which he played), Jordan was a *better* three point shooter than Harden. There's no reason whatsoever to think that if Jordan played in today's game, he wouldn't be a completely dominant player. None.
PS - Good lord Harden took more than 13 three pointers a GAME? Holy crap the NBA has changed.
The Boston Strangler. Extremely talented scorer. Injuries robbed him of what would certainly have been a much more productive career. But yeah, he killed the Celtics.Speaking of 3 pointers, one guy that I haven't seen mentioned is Andrew Toney. He used to kill the Celtics from behind the arc. Interestingly, over his career he averaged only 0.9 per game, but connected on 34% of them. Many of his 2 pointers, however, seemed to be from 20 feet out, and he was a 51.2% career two point shooter. And I swear those numbers went up across the board when facing the Celtics.
He couldn't defend worth anything, however.
Peak Shaq would’ve been a monster in any era, but his career as an elite player would have been shorter today. The version of Shaq who won a title with Wade in 2006 would be unplayable on defense against today’s pace-and-space teams.It would be interesting to see though...also.. I think we forget how athletic young Shaq was..and we're left with his later more post oriented game. Young Shaq was a monster and lean..he also thought he could play point on the break.
How much of this has to do with the evolution of the rim? I’d imagine he probably wasn’t a great shooter, but has anyone done any accounting for how much the rim has evolved over the decades. When did the breakaway rim come into play? Because in my personal experience there is a difference in shooting at the typical playground rim and a more typical indoor rim. Both in terms of softness/forgiveness and in just legibility.Russell had a crappy jumper, it was strictly short-range generally no more than 10' from the hoop. He had a decent hook shot. You could probabyl count the # of his shots beyond the elbow, in his career, on one-hand.
I didn’t mean it only specifically to Russell. I’m more wondering if long distance shooting has evolved partially because of the rim.. I know it also has a lot to do with the evolution of the game/ intro of the 3 point line etc.. but the rim has seemed to have gotten softer a bit as well with the introduction of the breakaway rim. As well as going from the single thinner ring to what it looks like today. Just wondering if it makes shots easier to judge and slightly easier to go in due to the forgiveness of the rim.I think it was more a reflection of 1) Russell was not a good shooter and 2) why would you want your best offensive rebounder away from the basket. Bill Russell shooting 20 ft jumpers is not the best use of a resource.
A beefier Deandre Jordan.I'm trying to figure out how Ben Wallace would have played in the present NBA. I mean his defensive instincts, footwork, ability to cover switches, all predicated changes that would be coming down the pike. He would be a defensive terror even in the modern game.
But his offense, I mean, it was terrible even then.
He'd probably be better. Jordan lacked the lateral quickness and was exposed on switches against guys like Curry that really hurt his overall value. Wallace was really quick and agile and was a menace jumping into passing lanes. He'd also benefit from the frequency of small-ball that would enable him to avoid playing against bigger guys as much; so he'd probably be even a bigger beast in the boards and at the rim. He would however, have to do better as a roll-man and couldn't shoot 41 percent from the line.A beefier Deandre Jordan.
He'd be a weird comp, but basically a more post-focused Andre Roberson I guess? Elite defender who can't shoot at all from anywhere on the floor?I'm trying to figure out how Ben Wallace would have played in the present NBA. I mean his defensive instincts, footwork, ability to cover switches, all predicated changes that would be coming down the pike. He would be a defensive terror even in the modern game.
But his offense, I mean, it was terrible even then.
I kinda doubt it since he's 2-3 inches shorter and came in 30-40 lbs lighter.A beefier Deandre Jordan.