I only hated (still hate) one of them, even though Parcells has always been a dick.BigSoxFan said:Pretty amazing that the Pats have had 3 coaches over the past 21 years:
Bill Belichick
Pete Carroll
Bill Parcells
I only hated (still hate) one of them, even though Parcells has always been a dick.BigSoxFan said:Pretty amazing that the Pats have had 3 coaches over the past 21 years:
Bill Belichick
Pete Carroll
Bill Parcells
Stitch01 said:The Parcells era drafts were very good on the whole.
1993-Bledsoe (probably an average number 1 overall pick, but a good player for a long time), Slade was good, Rucci and Brisby were OK, Troy Brown in the 8th round, Corwin Brown had an NFL career.
1994-only pretty bad draft, but McGinest was a good pick and Lane and Marty Moore were decent late round hits. Brutal 2nd and 3rd round here though, Kevin Lee was a whiff and Collier and Burch got cut in camp as third round picks.
1995-HOF RB in the third round, Hall of very good Ty Law in the 1st round, Ted Johnson in the 2nd round, Wohlabaugh and Hitchcock in the 5th and 4th rounds. About as good as it gets.
1996-Glenn/Milloy/Bruschi 1-2-3 was excellent and Irwin and Sullivan both had real NFL careers in the 4th round. Some production out of Grier and Purnell late.
Pretty good overall IMO
Doesn't he get points for recruiting / enticing Belichick to go with him instead of Johnson, in that case? It seems weird that you'd only give him credit for hiring Belichick if no one else wanted BB.
Super Nomario said:Doesn't he get points for recruiting / enticing Belichick to go with him instead of Johnson, in that case? It seems weird that you'd only give him credit for hiring Belichick if no one else wanted BB.
Looking at the roster that season:soxfan121 said:
This isn't strictly true - many of the big names were Parcells guys and a few more were Parcells Jets guys...but there were lots of guys who weren't.
No, we don't. However the Pats did drafting during that era ended up working out.Ed Hillel said:
Do we know how many of these players he picked? I know Glenn was a Kraft pick, and that's part of the reason that Parcells wanted out, but do we know how much beyond the Glenn pick it went?
He got guaranteed the coaching job with the Jets. Can we surmise he was told by Parcells he would groom him to be his replacement at that time as well?
A principal reason for BB landing here and the success since 2000.tims4wins said:Holy shit I forgot just how bad the first Grier/Carroll draft was
Chris Canty
Brandon Mitchell
Sedrick Shaw
Chris Carter
Damon Denson
Ed Ellis
Vernon Crawford
Tony Gaiter
Scott Rehberg
Just an abortion
Let's not underestimate the degree to which that compensation shifted the power balance in the AFC East.
Parcells says of Belichick (with whom he later rekindled his relationship, after six years of silence), “At the end of the day, he didn’t want to be the Jets’ head coach. Then he expected me as the general manager to just say, ‘OK, I’ll get somebody else.’ Well, eventually I did that. But I got compensation.”
It wasn't really Parcells' call, was it? The Jets were willing to let Parcells be GM-only and hand-pick his coach, but there's no guarantee Kraft would have done the same.Ed Hillel said:He got guaranteed the coaching job with the Jets. Can we surmise he was told by Parcells he would groom him to be his replacement at that time as well?
It's a two-way street. Parcells made the offer, Belichick took it. Obviously it was a really good hire by Parcells. I don't see any particular reason to think Tuna deserves any more or less credit for it than any other coaching hire. Maybe a head coach who grooms a coordinator from within deserves more credit.tims4wins said:Yeah, it is definitely possible that Parcells deserves all of the credit here. Just throwing it out there that it is also possible that BB deserves most of the credit. Hard to really know.
That's not that many guys, but a lot of the star talent, especially on D. Then again, if you look at the players in any place who've been there for five or six years, they're going to be disproportionately really good players. Shitty players don't tend to stick around very long. Parcells certainly deserves some credit for these guys, but I wouldn't go overboard. This is more talent than most coaches inherit from their predecessors, but I'm not sure it's much more talent.lexrageorge said:Parcells guys (10): Bledsoe, Troy Brown, Ty Law, Lawyer Milloy, Vinatieri, Tedy Bruschi, Ted Johnson, Willie McGinest, Terry Glen, Marty Moore
This story is awesome.The grievance hearing ended after seven hours, and a ruling was expected within a week. Weis returned to his office the next day; incensed, Parcells immediately banned his offensive coordinator from the premises: “Charlie, you need to get your s--- and leave the building.” Watched closely by Jets employees, Weis took a few minutes to gather some items before scuttling out of the building. Moments after he exited, the team packed up the rest of his belongings and shipped them to his home.
Parcells says, “I’ve told many coaches that friendship and loyalty is going to be more important than ambition. Some guys don’t realize that until after they’re done. I don’t bear any animosity toward Charlie. I can say that with a straight face because I know what he is. When somebody shows me what he is, I usually believe it. His actions back then don’t bother me anymore.”
This story is awesome.
Lmao at Weis.Van Everyman said:In other news, the article itself makes an excellent case that the only person in this story shittier than Bill Parcells himself is Charlie Weis, who after being turned down for the HC of the NYJ after BB resigned rats out Parcells at BB's grievance hearing and says Parcells never had any intention of ceding control to BB ... and THEN had the balls to show up at work the next day:
This story is awesome.
8slim said:It's totally disingenuous to not admit that Parcells turned around a franchise that had largely been a joke for it's prior 30+ years of existence.
It's also fair to hate the fat bastard for torpedoing a Super Bowl because he was incessantly chatting on the phone with the Jets like a 13 year old girl.
So thanks Bill, and fuck you.
Old Fart Tree said:
This is where I'm at. Great coach. Turned around the franchise. Super asshole. His actions during the SB week were unforgivable, so fuck him. But still, his contributions to what was the biggest joke of a franchise in professional sports were the stuff of legend.
Parcells took over the Giants in 1983 and was with them for 7 years. The Giants were not that much better off than the Patriots in some respects; they had 1 playoff appearance in the previous 19 seasons. By the time Parcells retired from the Giants, he had had at least one cardiac-related health scare. Also, the Giants almost replaced him after his first, disastrous 3-12-1 season. And Parcells was not allowed to interview for the Atlanta coaching job, which came with GM duties, following the first Super Bowl win. So, with the Giants at least, I'm not sure I can group him in with the Pitino's and Calipari's.jodyreeddudley78 said:Parcels deserves almost all of the credit for turning the Patriots franchise around. I really believe that any other story is revisionist, at best.
That being said, his Super Bowl victories were with (arguably) the best coaching staff in modern history. He deserves credit for having them on his staff, but they get marginalized when the media extols his virtues. Well, the staff and some LB that might be the best defensive player of the last 30 yrs.
Am I the only one that sees Parcells after the Pats as the NFL version of Pitino/Calipari? Yeah, he was going to turn your franchise around, but it's about him (and his hair dye), and he will be gone as soon as something better comes around.
Ralphwiggum said:
That's the funny part of this whole thing. I'm sure when Parcells says what he said in that article about Belichick he means it in a way that is critical of BB. But I'm sure Belichick gives zero fucks about it, and all it accomplishes is dragging Jets fans through the "what could have been" discussion for the umpteenth time.
8slim said:It's totally disingenuous to not admit that Parcells turned around a franchise that had largely been a joke for it's prior 30+ years of existence.
It's also fair to hate the fat bastard for torpedoing a Super Bowl because he was incessantly chatting on the phone with the Jets like a 13 year old girl.
So thanks Bill, and fuck you.
Ralphwiggum said:I agree with you on many of the points you are making about Parcells, but it isn't a big deal to give him some of the credit for restoring credibility to what was then a dead franchise.
Sure they had had some moderate pockets of success before then, but growing up around here I had as many friends who were Dolphin and Cowboys fans as Patriot fans. They were a joke of a franchise playing in the worst stadium in professional sports. The fact that a guy with Parcells' resume would even dream of thinking about coaching in New England was huge.
I hate him for the Super Bowl stuff and, as I mentioned above, it should tarnish his overall resume not just his time in New England, but giving him a share of the credit for making football in New England popular again is OK.
dcmissle said:SJH is right about the history. The Pats had during the 1970s one of the strongest front offices in football, and some of their drafts were jaw dropping. Just could not get over the hump.
But Parcells did make them relevant again. And were it not for Kraft, they would probably be in St. Louis today.
Mooch said:While the Patriots had sporadic periods of relative success, I'd say that we were among the dregs of the league for over a quarter-century. Even in the years where the Pats were successful, they were an also-ran, winning the AFC East only two times in 26 seasons (1978 and 1986).
MentalDisabldLst said:Going back to the original topic of this thread, Bill Barnwell over at Grantland has an excellent analysis of the history and consequences of the Belichick-to-NE trade. He claims it may have been the most lopsided trade in NFL history.
Not having been much of a football fan in those days, I was entirely unaware of the back-room machinations, lawsuits and power struggles that led to BB getting the F out of there. Amazing to think that, but for Woody Johnson buying the team, he may never have been allowed to come.
Belichick agreed to join the staff of Patriots head coach Bill Parcells.2 It was a natural fit. Belichick had enjoyed ample success working underneath Parcells with the Giants, where he had won two Super Bowls in six seasons as the team’s defensive coordinator. The Patriots, who had gone 21-27 in Parcells’s first three seasons as head coach, were coming off a 6-10 campaign in which they finished 25th in scoring defense. They needed help.
Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
My point is that the franchise had only been "dead" for 4 years before he got here. Not 30. Four. Prior to those very, very bad four years, they had a damn good stretch which included a bunch of winning seasons, playoff appearances, and a Super Bowl run. That didn't make them the Niners or the Cowboys, but that also didn't make them a laughingstock either. Anyone who thinks the franchise was a total joke for their entire history before Parcells got here was likely born in 1992.
And the vast majority of the franchise's problems were endemic to ownership. Bad stadium? Ownership. Horrid mismanagement and buffoonish behavior? Ownership. Cash-strapped? Ownership. Lack of stability? Ownership. Parcells didn't solve any of those problems. If Kraft didn't buy the team, they were moving to St Louis. With Parcells as coach and Bledsoe as the QB. Period.
Parcells didn't do anything that Ron Meyer hadn't already done beginning in 1982, taking a 2-14 team and turning it around to go over .500 in each of the next three years. I don't hear anyone blowing Meyer for what he did. Parcells of course has more charisma, which likely accounts for the higher praise, but bullshit is still bullshit.
Parcells gets way, way too much credit for a guy who was here only 4 years and had only 2 winning seasons in the process. And who then fucked the team over on the cusp of the Super Bowl. Fuck him. I never wanna hear about how great he was again. His legacy here is mixed at best. He helped turn around the on-field product only to try to blow the whole thing up on his way out the door. The only thing Parcells ever cared about was himself.
Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
This is wrong. Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. I have no idea why this nonsense keeps getting repeated, but it's simply not true.
What is undoubtedly true is that the 4 years prior to Parcells' arrival were absolutely terrible, the real nadir of the team. But working backwards from that:
- From 1982-1988 the team was above .500 every year but one and 8-8 in that one year; they had a pretty good run in the Berry years.
Good point...of course, if you knew you would never need to earn a living, wouldn't univ of Arizona be near the top of the list? Bet it's a blastsoxfan121 said:
1. Shad Khan, the (fairly) new owner of Jacksonville is about 1,000,000,000 times more competent than Woody. Khan at least has experience running a successful business. Woody is an heiress who went to the University of Arizona. Not Arizona St., which as anyone can tell you, is a far better school.
This is complete horseshit. Parcells knew nothing of the sort, he's a coach for christsakes not a magic eightball. Parcells was willing to give up the picks because of his inflated sense of self worth.dcmissle said:Parcells did not mind the Jets parting with them because he knew they would be pissed away.
Carroll did not suck when he coached New England, stating such is revisionism at it's finest. He made the mistake of treating professional athletes like grown men and paid the price for it with key players undermining his authority with the front office and ownership at every turn.soxfan121 said:
And Pete sucked when he was here. The revisionist history on that is almost as bad as it is with Tuna.
quint said:Carroll did not suck when he coached New England, stating such is revisionism at it's finest. He made the mistake of treating professional athletes like grown men and paid the price for it with key players undermining his authority with the front office and ownership at every turn.
Even his worst season, if you want to call it such was 8-8 but he did not "suck" as a coach.
Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
This is wrong. Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. I have no idea why this nonsense keeps getting repeated, but it's simply not true.
What is undoubtedly true is that the 4 years prior to Parcells' arrival were absolutely terrible, the real nadir of the team. But working backwards from that:
- From 1982-1988 the team was above .500 every year but one and 8-8 in that one year; they had a pretty good run in the Berry years.
- a bad 2-14 year in 1981
- from 1976-1980 they were one of the better teams in football. 11-3, 9-5, 11-5, 9-7, 10-6. Ben Drieth probably fucked out out of a SB appearance.
- a bad team from 1965-1975
For a 12 year stretch from 1976 through 1988 they had 10 winning seasons plus another .500 season with only one real stinker in the bunch, 1981. Does that make them the Niners? Of course not. And there's no doubt that the organization certainly had a tendency to make clowns of themselves: the Sullivan-Fairbanks fiasco, the coke abuse in the wake of the SB in '86, the embarassing Victor Kiam years and the horrid Zeke Mowatt incident. Note that most of those problems were due to bad ownership, a problem that incidentally got solved when Kraft bought the team.
The idea that Parcells came in here and achieved the first real success the franchise had ever had is total unadulterated bullshit. Dan Shaughnessy would be proud of this theory. Parcells rebuilt the team in 1993 onwards and provided an air of respectability that had been missing in the 4 years prior to that. That's it. He didn't save the team, he didn't do anything a multitude of other coaches haven't done. Of course getting Kiam's incompetent ass out of town helped with that as well.
8slim said:
Jesus, relax.
I grew up in Foxboro... spent the first 18 years of my life in a house 3 miles away from the stadium...... my father went to Pats games from season #1... I am completely and totally aware of the entire history of the Boston/New England Patriots, thank you very much.
It was a bit of hyperbole so I could tell Parcells to fuck off in print.
Thanks for saving the honor of the franchise.
Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
If so why on earth would you make such an incorrect statement? If you knew better, why say it? I truly don't get it, because saying the team sucked for the previous 30 years is so easily debunked that I can't fathom knowing better yet saying it anyway.
This shit gets me worked up because it's infuriating to see incorrect statements become part of conventional wisdom. Everyone "knows" that Parcells saved the franchise, everyone "knows" that the Pats had 30 years of suck before he came to town, just like everyone "knows" that the Pats pad their record on a weak division. None of those things is true, but they get parroted incessantly by those who can't be bothered to examine their veracity. And it drives me in. fucking. sane.
8slim said:
Sorry, next time I will link to an authoritative history of the franchise so everyone can read up before falling for the horrible misinformation in my throwaway posts.
Old Fart Tree said:
Exactly.
Great coach, super huge asshole. Maybe the same is true of BB. Whatever. Don't care.
quint said:Carroll did not suck when he coached New England, stating such is revisionism at it's finest. He made the mistake of treating professional athletes like grown men and paid the price for it with key players undermining his authority with the front office and ownership at every turn.
Even his worst season, if you want to call it such was 8-8 but he did not "suck" as a coach.
quint said:Carroll did not suck when he coached New England, stating such is revisionism at it's finest. He made the mistake of treating professional athletes like grown men and paid the price for it with key players undermining his authority with the front office and ownership at every turn.
Even his worst season, if you want to call it such was 8-8 but he did not "suck" as a coach.
They went to the Super Bowl the year before his tenure and won it two years after, with a similar core.