Pats select Western Kentucky QB Bailey Zappe at 137

[Jimbodandy]

I don't buy any of this talk, at all, personally.

Trevor Lawrence came into the league and his backup was CJ Beathard (who was in his 4th year, and had started 12 games for SF over the prior 3 seasons).

Josh Allen, came into the league, and in week one, they benched Nathan Peterman and brought in Allen, who then started every game since (except when he was hurt).

Jalen Hurts came into the league and sat on the bench, and got to spend almost a whole season watching Carson Wentz suck ass (not sure how that helped him).

Joe Burrow started immediately, and I'm not sure Brandon Allen and his 3 career starts at the time, was some real veteran presence/confidante for him.



Every situation is different, every player is different, and while Tua had Fitz, and Mahomes spent a year behind Alex Smith, I don't think there is any one size fits all model for any of these young QB's. IMO, the single most important thing for getting a young QB successful is getting them reps in practice, reps in games, and building a team around them with a good offensive line and good playmakers.

For the most part, rookie QBs are horrible. Josh Allen was horrible and really below average in most metrics in year 2 also. Then he became Josh Allen.

Hope folks are prepared for that. Some of the Zappephiles here might be calling for him again when the new kid has a 4 TO game. Depending on the kid though, still might be the right call to start from day 1.

Edit: please get him a fucking tackle though.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

For the most part, rookie QBs are horrible. Josh Allen was horrible and really below average in most metrics in year 2 also. Then he became Josh Allen.

Hope folks are prepared for that. Some of the Zappephiles here might be calling for him again when the new kid has a 4 TO game. Depending on the kid though, still might be the right call.

Absolutely true, which is why I've been banging the "get some fucking help on offense" drum for so many years. All of these guys ranged from really fucking bad to below average in the early parts of their careers, but in most cases, they were joining shitty offenses, shitty coaches or both. Then the teams went out and got them help, on the line, at receiver, etc. and they found their groove. The Pats did the opposite for Mac and Zappe, IMO.

Then you have guys like Brock Purdy and Mahomes who just step into great offenses, with QB whisperers coaching them and they flourish immediately. But nobody at that position succeeds alone. Just ask Fields and Bryce Young and Herbert and Jordan Love...

I think if guys like Jordan Love and Herbert end up inheriting the KC team that Mahomes did or the SF team that Purdy did, they would be talked about as top 5-10 QB's in the NFL right now, but the NFL is a cruel place for most rookie QB's.

 

[BusRaker]

For the most part, rookie QBs are horrible.

Proof in point ... only 2 of the last 10 offensive rookies of the year were QBs. 10 of 10 MVPs were QB's

Year	Lg	Pos	Player	Tm	Voting
2022	NFL	WR	Garrett Wilson	New York Jets	Voting
2021	NFL	WR	Ja'Marr Chase	Cincinnati Bengals	Voting
2020	NFL	QB	Justin Herbert	Los Angeles Chargers	Voting
2019	NFL	QB	Kyler Murray	Arizona Cardinals	Voting
2018	NFL	RB	Saquon Barkley	New York Giants	Voting
2017	NFL	RB	Alvin Kamara	New Orleans Saints	Voting
2016	NFL	QB	Dak Prescott	Dallas Cowboys	Voting
2015	NFL	RB	Todd Gurley	St. Louis Rams	Voting
2014	NFL	WR	Odell Beckham Jr.	New York Giants	Voting
2013	NFL	RB	Eddie Lacy	Green Bay Packers	Votin

Edit: Does the forum software not understand the HTML TH tag?

 

[BaseballJones]

Absolutely true, which is why I've been banging the "get some fucking help on offense" drum for so many years. All of these guys ranged from really fucking bad to below average in the early parts of their careers, but in most cases, they were joining shitty offenses, shitty coaches or both. Then the teams went out and got them help, on the line, at receiver, etc. and they found their groove. The Pats did the opposite for Mac and Zappe, IMO.

Then you have guys like Brock Purdy and Mahomes who just step into great offenses, with QB whisperers coaching them and they flourish immediately. But nobody at that position succeeds alone. Just ask Fields and Bryce Young and Herbert and Jordan Love...

I think if guys like Jordan Love and Herbert end up inheriting the KC team that Mahomes did or the SF team that Purdy did, they would be talked about as top 5-10 QB's in the NFL right now, but the NFL is a cruel place for most rookie QB's.

So....what, then, do we make of Mac's rookie year? The vast, vast majority of rookie QBs do terribly. Lots are picked on bad teams, to be sure. But many aren't, and still struggle mightily.

We talk here about the poor offensive talent around him, and yet he put up very good stats (for a rookie, no less) and helped the team win 10 games and make the playoffs. Forget the Pro Bowl honor. He was...good - not great, but good...his rookie year. Much, much better than most rookie QBs are.

How did he do that?

 

[Deathofthebambino]

So....what, then, do we make of Mac's rookie year? The vast, vast majority of rookie QBs do terribly. Lots are picked on bad teams, to be sure. But many aren't, and still struggle mightily.

We talk here about the poor offensive talent around him, and yet he put up very good stats (for a rookie, no less) and helped the team win 10 games and make the playoffs. Forget the Pro Bowl honor. He was...good - not great, but good...his rookie year. Much, much better than most rookie QBs are.

How did he do that?

Because he was never as bad as folks made him out to be, but never as good as he looked at certain times either. That said, he still had Josh here who was a great OC, they were the 8th best rushing team in football that year, unsurprisingly when they were still running Jakob Johnson out there at FB. Wynn, Karras, Andrews, Mason and Trent Brown (although he missed some games) is a shit ton better than anything they've had since, Meyers was better than any receiver on this years' team, and Bourne wasn't relegated to the doghouse yet, and Bolden (who I never loved) was a legit third down back catching 40 balls.

2022 broke him, completely. That's why I said the Pats went the complete opposite direction with their young QB than teams like Philly, Buffalo, Miami, Cincy, etc. did for their young QB's.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

Because he was never as bad as folks made him out to be, but never as good as he looked at certain times either. That said, he still had Josh here who was a great OC, they were the 8th best rushing team in football that year, unsurprisingly when they were still running Jakob Johnson out there at FB. Wynn, Karras, Andrews, Mason and Trent Brown (although he missed some games) is a shit ton better than anything they've had since, Meyers was better than any receiver on this years' team, and Bourne wasn't relegated to the doghouse yet, and Bolden (who I never loved) was a legit third down back catching 40 balls.

2022 broke him, completely. That's why I said the Pats went the complete opposite direction with their young QB than teams like Philly, Buffalo, Miami, Cincy, etc. did for their young QB's.

Mac shouldnt take any of the responsibility for his performance? Its all on the Pats breaking him?

You still have Macs lipstick on your face, sir.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

Mac shouldnt take any of the responsibility for his performance? Its all on the Pats breaking him?

You still have Macs lipstick on your face, sir.

Of course he should.

That and $5 might get us a coffee at Starbucks.

 

[Jimbodandy]

Of course he should.

That and $5 might get us a coffee at Starbucks.

Yeah dropping Mac into continuity on the coaching staff and OL was the key to his successful rookie year, by rookie standards anyway. Many of the same warts were there. He would abandon deep routes at the first sign of pressure and check down way too early. Many of us were complaining then about that. But he was careful, and comfortable when the OL fully protected him. That plus a good defense and special teams got them to 10-7.

Since then, he has had two different OCs, a patchwork line at best (fucking horrible this year and bad last year IMO, regardless of what the advanced metrics are trying to tell us), and an abject lack of playmakers on offense. Sure, some of the WR and TE are perfectly fine complementary players, but nobody that's gonna make shit happen beside Douglas who barely knows where the cafeteria is still.

All that said, Mac has handled it poorly. Faced with a bad situation, he developed super happy feet, is making terrible decisions, and isn't really assuming enough responsibility publicly for his bad performance. He seems like a guy who is facing adversity for the first time in his life and is folding like a cheap suit.

Fwiw, his rookie year mediocrity isn't that hard to understand for me, nor is his decline. Except that we expected a little more grit. Zappe is hanging in there despite the same obstacles and making throws. Mac is in his happy place in his head. That's the difference to me.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

Yeah dropping Mac into continuity on the coaching staff and OL was the key to his successful rookie year, by rookie standards anyway. Many of the same warts were there. He would abandon deep routes at the first sign of pressure and check down way too early. Many of us were complaining then about that. But he was careful, and comfortable when the OL fully protected him. That plus a good defense and special teams got them to 10-7.

Since then, he has had two different OCs, a patchwork line at best (fucking horrible this year and bad last year IMO, regardless of what the advanced metrics are trying to tell us), and an abject lack of playmakers on offense. Sure, some of the WR and TE are perfectly fine complementary players, but nobody that's gonna make shit happen beside Douglas who barely knows where the cafeteria is still.

All that said, Mac has handled it poorly. Faced with a bad situation, he developed super happy feet, is making terrible decisions, and isn't really assuming enough responsibility publicly for his bad performance. He seems like a guy who is facing adversity for the first time in his life and is folding like a cheap suit.

Fwiw, his rookie year mediocrity isn't that hard to understand for me, nor is his decline. Except that we expected a little more grit. Zappe is hanging in there despite the same obstacles and making throws. Mac is in his happy place in his head. That's the difference to me.

Mac stood in and made plenty of throws his rookie year. He did it this year too in the opening game vs Philly, the second game vs Miami where every snap was a jail break by the Miami defensive line, the Buffalo game, etc. There was just so much suck from him too that it's hard to remember when he was playing ok. IMO, Zappe is not much different, he didn't stand in there against the Chargers and make throws, while getting sacked on like 5 straight third downs, or in the 2nd half vs Pitt. Hes had some good moments and some good throws, just like Mac but also like Mac, the offense still blows and I don't find either of them 100% to blame. Young quarterbacks don't make chicken salad out of chicken shit, at best, they just make it smell better for a short period of time.

 

[Cellar-Door]

The 2021 team actually had plenty of decent offensive talent, the line was much better and much healthier, which meant a strong run game, the WR corps lacked a top end #1 but was good and balanced. The playcalling was good and protected him, and allegedly McDaniels had serious training wheels on Mac. He also struggled down the stretch against better defenses who were more aggressive about making him make plays. Mac was pretty good as a rookie, but it was widely acknowledged as a great spot for a QB. Year 2 a lot was blamed on the OCs, but the line wasn't quite as good... but also Mac did not improve anything in his play, if anything he regressed. Year 3... line injuries galore and he lost it completely.

 

[Jimbodandy]

Mac stood in and made plenty of throws his rookie year. He did it this year too in the opening game vs Philly, the second game vs Miami where every snap was a jail break by the Miami defensive line, the Buffalo game, etc. There was just so much suck from him too that it's hard to remember when he was playing ok. IMO, Zappe is not much different, he didn't stand in there against the Chargers and make throws, while getting sacked on like 5 straight third downs, or in the 2nd half vs Pitt. Hes had some good moments and some good throws, just like Mac but also like Mac, the offense still blows and I don't find either of them 100% to blame. Young quarterbacks don't make chicken salad out of chicken shit, at best, they just make it smell better for a short period of time.

The 2021 team actually had plenty of decent offensive talent, the line was much better and much healthier, which meant a strong run game, the WR corps lacked a top end #1 but was good and balanced. The playcalling was good and protected him, and allegedly McDaniels had serious training wheels on Mac. He also struggled down the stretch against better defenses who were more aggressive about making him make plays. Mac was pretty good as a rookie, but it was widely acknowledged as a great spot for a QB. Year 2 a lot was blamed on the OCs, but the line wasn't quite as good... but also Mac did not improve anything in his play, if anything he regressed. Year 3... line injuries galore and he lost it completely.

These two posts tell a reasoned, accurate story IMO.

 

[Jinhocho]

These two posts tell a reasoned, accurate story IMO.

They also said numerous times in year two camp and early in the season they were talking the training wheels off Mac and trying to push the ball down the field more.

 

[Groovenstein]

After watching the post-game interviews I'm still not sure Zappe isn't private first class Downey from A Few Good Men

MIKE REISS: Quarterback, did you ever actually hear Coordinator O’Brien call Hoss Y Juke?

BAILEY ZAPPE: No, sir.

PRESS SECRETARY: I’d like to request a recess in order to confer with my quarterback.

REISS: Why did you call the play?

SECRETARY: The quarterback has rights.

REISS: The quarterback has been read his rights, Secretary.

Why did you call the play?

ZAPPE: Mac?

REISS: Did Quarterback Jones tell you to call Hoss Y Juke?

ZAPPE: Mac?

REISS: Don’t look at him!

ZAPPE: Mac?!

MAC JONES: Quarterback, answer the reporter’s question!

ZAPPE: Yes, Reporter. I was given an audible by my teammate, Quarterback Michael M. Jones of the New England Patriots, and I followed it.

 

[NextBigThing8184]

Zappe hasn’t looked all that different from Heinicke last year or Browning, Dobbs or Mullens this year. Guys who can have a few good drives and then have a bunch of awful plays (taking bad sacks, brain dead interceptions, wildly missing key throws etc). He’s shown enough to say he belongs in the league, on a roster somewhere. But watching him play has been like being stranded in the desert and being offered dirty pond water to drink. It’s just so refreshing not to be dying of thirst that you temporarily forget that your brief moment of thirst quenching is fleeting and could possibly make you very sick moving forward.

Would I prefer Zappe and his dirt cheap salary over an overpriced retread like Jameis Winston, Josh Dobbs or whatever fringe QB they can find in the free agency market? Sure. That money can be better spent elsewhere for comparable results at QB. Does Zappe, if you look really hard, maybe have some untapped upside? Sure, he played mostly small school ball and went to Western Kentucky for one year and hasn’t gotten many first team reps. There’s certainly a small chance he could be the next great underdog story. But if the Pats roll with Zappe or Brissett (etc) next year as their starter, with no legitimate rookie QB, it’s basically punting on 2024 in my eyes.

he’s made some nice throws. Had a few nice drives. He plays confidently. But that doesn’t make him a starting caliber QB for a team with playoff hopes in a division with 3 (if Rodgers is healthy) good QB’s.

Go watch the offensive highlights from the Bengals/Vikings game and you’ll come away thinking Browning and Mullens are good starting QB options. Until you realize that the rest of those game, other than their best plays, are exactly why they’re career backups. Mason Rudolph and Tommy DeVito have had a few nice drives too and I doubt Steelers or Giants fans are clamoring for either of those guys to lead them in 2024 despite their starters being pretty bad.

 

[NextBigThing8184]

Absolutely true, which is why I've been banging the "get some fucking help on offense" drum for so many years. All of these guys ranged from really fucking bad to below average in the early parts of their careers, but in most cases, they were joining shitty offenses, shitty coaches or both. Then the teams went out and got them help, on the line, at receiver, etc. and they found their groove. The Pats did the opposite for Mac and Zappe, IMO.

Then you have guys like Brock Purdy and Mahomes who just step into great offenses, with QB whisperers coaching them and they flourish immediately. But nobody at that position succeeds alone. Just ask Fields and Bryce Young and Herbert and Jordan Love...

I think if guys like Jordan Love and Herbert end up inheriting the KC team that Mahomes did or the SF team that Purdy did, they would be talked about as top 5-10 QB's in the NFL right now, but the NFL is a cruel place for most rookie QB's.

Not sure who you talk football with but Justin Herbert is generally considered a top 5-7 QB in the pros. He put up a passer rating of 98 in his rookie year.

it’s a fair point to suggest a rookie QB is likely to struggle in his rookie year. Burrow, Stafford, Hurts, plenty of others looked mediocre to bad as rookies. Even “super pro ready” Andrew Luck had plenty of down games despite leading the colts to 11 wins. Stroud has been an exception. Herbert was an exception. A few others have succeeded early but it’s rare. But it’s also fair to say that a rookie is likely to be as good or better than what we’ve seen this year including Zappe, even if the rookie struggles (and maybe you get lucky with one of the exceptions). And certainly a top rookie prospect is more beneficial to the team’s medium term outlook than rolling with Zappe and whatever flavor of bad veteran you prefer

 

[Jimbodandy]

They also said numerous times in year two camp and early in the season they were talking the training wheels off Mac and trying to push the ball down the field more.

Word. And I remember being pumped about it. But the two stooges offensive hydra was not the steady hand that the rudder needed in that situation.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

All you fucking cowards hedging can suck my ass. I'm going through all the fucking posts for people lobbying for Zappe to even get a look at starter next year. And God forbid we end up starting the season with him as QB1, I will never let you fucking morons live it down.

Fucking.

Idiots.

 

[Jimbodandy]

All you fucking cowards hedging can suck my ass. I'm going through all the fucking posts for people lobbying for Zappe to even get a look at starter next year. And God forbid we end up starting the season with him as QB1, I will never let you fucking morons live it down.

Fucking.

Idiots.

I've been missing this Kenny.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

Not sure who you talk football with but Justin Herbert is generally considered a top 5-7 QB in the pros. He put up a passer rating of 98 in his rookie year.

it’s a fair point to suggest a rookie QB is likely to struggle in his rookie year. Burrow, Stafford, Hurts, plenty of others looked mediocre to bad as rookies. Even “super pro ready” Andrew Luck had plenty of down games despite leading the colts to 11 wins. Stroud has been an exception. Herbert was an exception. A few others have succeeded early but it’s rare. But it’s also fair to say that a rookie is likely to be as good or better than what we’ve seen this year including Zappe, even if the rookie struggles (and maybe you get lucky with one of the exceptions). And certainly a top rookie prospect is more beneficial to the team’s medium term outlook than rolling with Zappe and whatever flavor of bad veteran you prefer

I'm not entirely sure what part of anything I've ever written on this site would lead you to believe I want to roll with Zappe next year. I've been on the Drake Maye wagon since before last year's draft. All I'm saying is no young quarterback would be successful with the pile of shit that has surrounded Mac and Zappe since the end of 2021.


Mahomes, Tua, Allen, Hurts, Burrow, Dak, Lamar, Goff, Stafford, Rodgers..Which 2-4 of those guys are you dumping for Herbert?

Shit, in addition to those, I would take Stroud, Purdy and Trevor Lawrence all ahead of Justin Herbert, who hasn't improved a lick since that rookie year. So you can question who I talk football with all you want, but if arm strength and talent are your sole prerequisites for judging a QB, we aren't having the same conversation. I prefer results, both at the individual level and the team level, and all of those guys have or are in the process of producing results that Herbert hasn't come close to.

 

[Jinhocho]

All you fucking cowards hedging can suck my ass. I'm going through all the fucking posts for people lobbying for Zappe to even get a look at starter next year. And God forbid we end up starting the season with him as QB1, I will never let you fucking morons live it down.

Fucking.

Idiots.

I could see him starting here next year as a bridge or out of desperation. If Bill is back and he says he earned it, what can we say? I still think that people kind of feel the need to say Zappe sucks so much because to say he is far better than Mac makes a lot of people have to admit how wrong they were about Mac. It is a lot easier to blame everyone but Mac. I can live with anyone not named Mac Jones as our starting QB next year.

 

[Jimbodandy]

I'm not entirely sure what part of anything I've ever written on this site would lead you to believe I want to roll with Zappe next year. I've been on the Drake Maye wagon since before last year's draft. All I'm saying is no young quarterback would be successful with the pile of shit that has surrounded Mac and Zappe since the end of 2021.


Mahomes, Tua, Allen, Hurts, Burrow, Dak, Lamar, Goff, Stafford..Which 2-4 of those guys are you dumping for Herbert?

Shit, in addition to those, I would take Stroud, Purdy and Trevor Lawrence all ahead of Justin Herbert, who hasn't improved a lick since that rookie year. So you can question who I talk football with all you want, but if arm strength and talent are your sole prerequisites for judging a QB, we aren't having the same conversation. I prefer results, both at the individual level and the team level, and all of those guys have or are in the process of producing results that Herbert hadn't come close to.

I'm not sure what was unclear about what you were writing either, but apparently Kenny took it sideways too.

Anyone who expects a rookie QB to dominate hasn't noticed the history of this not happening very often. That has fuck all to do with wanting Zappe as the starter next year.

After 17 games of this shit, I'm pretty certain that most folks would prefer to see Daniels/Maye/whoever learn on the job than watch a retread or Zappe.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

And for the record, Herbert, unlike Tua, Hurts, Allen, etc stepped into a great offensive system. A system that produced 3 different 1,000 yard receivers with the corpse of Philip Rivers the prior season (well, only 993 yards in Ekelers case), and a still fairly athletic Hunter Henry.

I actually believe Herbert is better than his results because his coaching sucked, but at least he wasn't let down by his GM and his coaching.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

I'm not sure what was unclear about what you were writing either, but apparently Kenny took it sideways too.

Anyone who expects a rookie QB to dominate hasn't noticed the history of this not happening very often. That has fuck all to do with wanting Zappe as the starter next year.

After 17 games of this shit, I'm pretty certain that most folks would prefer to see Daniels/Maye/whoever learn on the job than watch a retread or Zappe.

I didn't even notice Kenny's post. My guess was he saw my post saying Zappe will be in camp next year. Not sure that's controversial, there's almost no downside fir the organization to have him in camp. I certainly don't want to see him on the field in 2024 except in the 4th quarter of a preseason game.

Still doesn't change my opinion that he was given a raw deal with the roster around him.

 

[Old Fart Tree]

Mahomes, Tua, Allen, Hurts, Burrow, Dak, Lamar, Goff, Stafford, Rodgers..Which 2-4 of those guys are you dumping for Herbert?

Maybe Dak, definitely Goff, Stafford, Rodgers. Age matters.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

Maybe Dak, definitely Goff, Stafford, Rodgers. Age matters.

Sure, if we're talking about age. If we're talking about the current top 5-7 qbs in football right now as he was, Herbert isn't on their level.

 

[Jimbodandy]

I didn't even notice Kenny's post. My guess was he saw my post saying Zappe will be in camp next year. Not sure that's controversial, there's almost no downside fir the organization to have him in camp. I certainly don't want to see him on the field in 2024 except in the 4th quarter of a preseason game.

Still doesn't change my opinion that he was given a raw deal with the roster around him.

I concur. They both were. That doesn't mean or even imply a belief in the QBs. Zappe is limited and Mac is limited and broken. The latter needs to move somewhere else to get his head right. Zappe can stay at chump change because there's a good chance that the draftee will be 10+ pounds under proper playing weight as a rookie (more if Daniels) and those guys are more vulnerable to landing the wrong way. Half decent chance that the backup gets a start or two next year.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

I concur. They both were. That doesn't mean or even imply a belief in the QBs. Zappe is limited and Mac is limited and broken. The latter needs to move somewhere else to get his head right. Zappe can stay at chump change because there's a good chance that the draftee will be 10+ pounds under proper playing weight as a rookie (more if Daniels) and those guys are more vulnerable to landing the wrong way. Half decent chance that the backup gets a start or two next year.

Honestly, if the Pats do take a QB, it wouldn't surprise me at all to see 3 QBs in camp and maybe on the opening day roster.

It's going to be a crazy interesting off-season, thar much is for sure.

 

[TricorneMafia]

So....what, then, do we make of Mac's rookie year? The vast, vast majority of rookie QBs do terribly. Lots are picked on bad teams, to be sure. But many aren't, and still struggle mightily.

We talk here about the poor offensive talent around him, and yet he put up very good stats (for a rookie, no less) and helped the team win 10 games and make the playoffs. Forget the Pro Bowl honor. He was...good - not great, but good...his rookie year. Much, much better than most rookie QBs are.

How did he do that?

His problem is mostly mental. He looks like a shell shocked doughboy from WW1.

 

[Kull]

All you fucking cowards hedging can suck my ass. I'm going through all the fucking posts for people lobbying for Zappe to even get a look at starter next year. And God forbid we end up starting the season with him as QB1, I will never let you fucking morons live it down.

Fucking.

Idiots.

How is this post even remotely acceptable? I was under the impression that we were having a discussion here? Even worse, at least one poster is cheering it on and a "dope" responded to it as if it somehow deserved a reasoned response.

 

[rodderick]

So....what, then, do we make of Mac's rookie year? The vast, vast majority of rookie QBs do terribly. Lots are picked on bad teams, to be sure. But many aren't, and still struggle mightily.

We talk here about the poor offensive talent around him, and yet he put up very good stats (for a rookie, no less) and helped the team win 10 games and make the playoffs. Forget the Pro Bowl honor. He was...good - not great, but good...his rookie year. Much, much better than most rookie QBs are.

How did he do that?

Mostly by being drafted into a team that asked less of him than what's asked of most rookie first round QBs.

 

[rodderick]

All you fucking cowards hedging can suck my ass. I'm going through all the fucking posts for people lobbying for Zappe to even get a look at starter next year. And God forbid we end up starting the season with him as QB1, I will never let you fucking morons live it down.

Fucking.

Idiots.

Word.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

I didn't even notice Kenny's post. My guess was he saw my post saying Zappe will be in camp next year. Not sure that's controversial, there's almost no downside fir the organization to have him in camp. I certainly don't want to see him on the field in 2024 except in the 4th quarter of a preseason game.

Still doesn't change my opinion that he was given a raw deal with the roster around him.

You relax over there Mrs. Mac Jones. I wasn't referring to you. I think your take is fair - cheap, young QB that knows the system. He absolutely should be back next season unless they think its at the detriment of a drafted rookie.

My vitriol is directed at all of the posts in this thread asking if he's done enough to get a chance to start next season because of his play since taking over as a starter. As a reminder:

6 - 0 loss at home to the Chargers. 13-25, 141 yards against a bottom 3 passing defense.

21-18 win @ Pittsburgh. 19-28, 240 yards. Bailey put together a great drive to start the game, capped off a whopping 11 yard drive after a pick, and had another drive from midfield that he finished. So, one very good drive in the entire game. His second half numbers? 44 total passing yards, with 33 of those 44 being dump offs to Elliot. So...you know, 11 passing yards to non-running backs. He also threw a heinous FitZappetrick interception into 4 Steelers while running to the sideline.

27-17 loss at home to the Chiefs. 23-31, a whopping 180 yards, and another FitZappetrick interception to start the second half that brought the game from a manageable one - 17 to 10 with the ball and 10 minutes left in the 3rd - to a nonmanagable one - 24 to 10 following a 7 yard drive thanks to the pick.

26-23 win @ Denver. 24-33, 256 yards, 2 TDs. Lets be clear - THIS is the game people are pointing at when they say "maybe he should have a chance to start next season!" Reminder - those 256 passing yards? Yeah, 10 guys average more than that for the season. This amazing, Herculean effort doesn't even reach what 10 other guys in the league put up weekly. As for the game itself? Well, he literally started it by fumbling his first snap at our own 5. If the defense didnt absolutely BALL OUT, we're down 7-0 to start a game AND lose out on a possession as Denver gets ball at half. Just like the Pittsburgh game, he had one very good drive for a TD and one short drive (42 yards) for a TD. Thats it.

Want the TL;DR version? In his 4 starts, he's put together 2 very good drives and 3 backbreaking turnovers. He's averaged 204 yards per game, good enough for 27th. His 6.9 YPA is good enough for 29th. I mean, this amazing four game stretch is showing a guy who - as we've known since last year - is prone to turnovers and, aside that, performs like one of the worst starters in the league.

So, yeah, if you want to tell me he deserves a shot to start next season, I'm going to need to see your work. And it needs to be more than "they've won 2 games!"

He fucking sucks.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

How is this post even remotely acceptable? I was under the impression that we were having a discussion here? Even worse, at least one poster is cheering it on and a "dope" responded to it as if it somehow deserved a reasoned response.

Whats unacceptable is that we have a bunch of people posting in this thread saying this guy deserves to start next year because...well...because we won 2 games with him! I'm making it known - in a joking fashion, obviously, so fucking relax - that I will be taking receipts.

Dont like that post? I made a more substantive one just above this one. Feel free to tell me why you disagree.

Edit - Oh, and the dope that replied as if it deserved a reasoned response? Its because hes actually read this forum and this thread and has seen/replied to multiple posts from me that are reasonable and directed at this topic. So dont just drive by waving a victim card.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

How is this post even remotely acceptable? I was under the impression that we were having a discussion here? Even worse, at least one poster is cheering it on and a "dope" responded to it as if it somehow deserved a reasoned response.

You know how when your dog barfs on your nice couch, you get a little bummed but then you clean it up and pet his head because you’ve been together for a long time, and all those hours of fetch and stuff count for something?

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

You know how when your dog barfs on your nice couch, you get a little bummed but then you clean it up and pet his head because you’ve been together for a long time, and all those hours of fetch and stuff count for something?

Our furry kink was supposed to be private...

 

[MuppetAsteriskTalk]

Whats unacceptable is that we have a bunch of people posting in this thread saying this guy deserves to start next year because...well...because we won 2 games with him!

I haven't noticed a single person make anything resembling this argument.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

Our furry kink was supposed to be private...

My therapist says I need to “express my truth” more.

I know your post was about Zappe starts, but the pass that I can’t shake was against the Colts. In retrospect, I am glad we lost, but man was that bad. Maybe not appropriate to let one bad pass in a relief appearance define a guy, but for me, the two wins notwithstanding, that pass was more on brand than a couple of the plays where receivers made plays for him.

Mac was so broken that we are simply responding with glee at having an offense that seems consistent with an NFL product. That doesn’t make Zappe good. I do think we need to allow for the possibility that he might be, though, so long as we don’t put too many eggs in that basket.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

My therapist says I need to “express my truth” more.

I know your post was about Zappe starts, but the pass that I can’t shake was against the Colts. In retrospect, I am glad we lost, but man was that bad. Maybe not appropriate to let one bad pass in a relief appearance define a guy, but for me, the two wins notwithstanding, that pass was more on brand than a couple of the plays where receivers made plays for him.

Mac was so broken that we are simply responding with glee at having an offense that seems consistent with an NFL product. That doesn’t make Zappe good. I do think we need to allow for the possibility that he might be, so long as we don’t put too many eggs in that basket.

Well, thats the other side of this entire issue. People have gone out of their way to try and separate Starter Zappe from Relief Zappe. I get that its a tough situation, but it was still him out there making some of the worst decisions this side of Mac Jones. And his accuracy in those games was fucking atrocious. Like, missing guys by 15 yards atrocious.

People also seem to want to forget that we already did this with him last season as well. He had 1 good game against the Browns sandwiched between two shitty, 180 yard performances with 3 INTs. He's the same player this year that he was last year, so why am I supposed to believe he's suddenly going to grow and get better now when he hasn't done that since his 3 starts in October of last year?

 

[Kull]

On a factual level, we have a young QB who's only had 6 starts in his first two seasons. That's less than 1/3 of a season. Those who claim that "he sucks" and can never get better don't have enough information to make such a sweeping claim. I certainly don't know what Bailey Zappe's ceiling is, but the evidence of his recent performance suggests that we haven't seen it yet. Fortunately there's two more games worth of data coming up. That's what I'm looking forward to.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

On a factual level, we have a young QB who's only had 6 starts in his first two seasons. That's less than 1/3 of a season. Those who claim that "he sucks" and can never get better don't have enough information to make such a sweeping claim. I certainly don't know what Bailey Zappe's ceiling is, but the evidence of his recent performance suggests that we haven't seen it yet. Fortunately there's two more games worth of data coming up. That's what I'm looking forward to.

Hey! Heres a post devoid of any actual facts!

What evidence of his recent performance? Hes had 2 good drives in 4 games. Hes had 3 atrocious turnovers in those games. His stats in those 4 games - where you suggest we "haven't seen his ceiling" - rank him at the bottom of the league (I sure fucking hope thats not his ceiling). He performed the exact same way last season, which says he hasn't improved after another full year in the NFL.

What evidence?

 

[tims4wins]

Well, thats the other side of this entire issue. People have gone out of their way to try and separate Starter Zappe from Relief Zappe. I get that its a tough situation, but it was still him out there making some of the worst decisions this side of Mac Jones. And his accuracy in those games was fucking atrocious. Like, missing guys by 15 yards atrocious.

People also seem to want to forget that we already did this with him last season as well. He had 1 good game against the Browns sandwiched between two shitty, 180 yard performances with 3 INTs. He's the same player this year that he was last year, so why am I supposed to believe he's suddenly going to grow and get better now when he hasn't done that since his 3 starts in October of last year?

He went 17-21 against Detroit too. Then they fucked around with reps heading into the Bears game.

On no planet do I think Zappe is “good” or deserves to start next year. But he’s played… ok.. in his starts.

 

[Kull]

People also seem to want to forget that we already did this with him last season as well. He had 1 good game against the Browns sandwiched between two shitty, 180 yard performances with 3 INTs. He's the same player this year that he was last year, so why am I supposed to believe he's suddenly going to grow and get better now when he hasn't done that since his 3 starts in October of last year?

No, of his 4 games last year, only two came after he had QB1 reps the week prior. Both were wins, and he performed well in each, and yes, clearly better in the Browns game. And his reward? Benched for Mac.

 

[MuppetAsteriskTalk]

I don't understand why Mac had to get start after start and sink the entire season to make absolutely sure that he sucked, while Zappe gets nothing close to the same consideration. Most likely Zappe sucks too, but why not see if he improves while functioning as the 1, and knowing for sure Mac is burnt toast? And why not let him compete next training camp?

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

No, of his 4 games last year, only two came after he had QB1 reps the week prior. Both were wins, and he performed well in each, and yes, clearly better in the Browns game. And his reward? Benched for Mac.

This is such garbage.

He came into the Bears game when the team was down 10-0 and he promptly lead them to 2 TD drives to make it 14-10. He was 4-4 for 97 yards and a TD on his first two drives of that game.

But then he remembered, "Oh yeah, I didn't start the game! I forgot that means I have to stink!", so he fumbled the ball, threw 2 picks, and squandered the lead he got for them. He can obviously perform without "getting QB1 reps"...and Im not going to even concede that happened. I have no idea who got what for reps that week of practice.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

I don't understand why Mac had to get start after start and sink the entire season to make absolutely sure that he sucked, while Zappe gets nothing close to the same consideration. Most likely Zappe sucks too, but why not see if he improves while functioning as the 1, and knowing for sure Mac is burnt toast? And why not let him compete next training camp?

People keep acting like this is confusing.

1) Mac Jones was drafted in the first round and we needed to see if he was the QB of the future or not. He needed to play more than a handful of games to determine that.

2) We KNOW that BB views turnovers as the biggest key to victory. Zappe has shown consistently that he doesn't take care of the ball. I assume Mac Jones performs better in practice when he wears the red jersey and isn't hearing footsteps, whereas Zappe continues to just wing it and have turnovers in practice.

I dont think it needs to be more complicated than those two things.

 

[kenneycb]

I don't understand why Mac had to get start after start and sink the entire season to make absolutely sure that he sucked, while Zappe gets nothing close to the same consideration. Most likely Zappe sucks too, but why not see if he improves while functioning as the 1, and knowing for sure Mac is burnt toast? And why not let him compete next training camp?

Do you really not understand why they gave a first rounder who flashed at times multiple chances while not giving the same to a less heralded, cheaper quarterback who has shown fewer flashes? Or are you just being dense?

 

[Deathofthebambino]

On a factual level, we have a young QB who's only had 6 starts in his first two seasons. That's less than 1/3 of a season. Those who claim that "he sucks" and can never get better don't have enough information to make such a sweeping claim. I certainly don't know what Bailey Zappe's ceiling is, but the evidence of his recent performance suggests that we haven't seen it yet. Fortunately there's two more games worth of data coming up. That's what I'm looking forward to.

Here's all of the information I really need on Zappe, without even watching him in the games, which only furthers the point.

The Pats waived him, and 31 NFL GM's, all of whom probably know more about football than anyone on this site, didn't bother to even bring him in for a workout, never mind sign him for pennies as a 2nd or even 3rd string backup. That is a glaring bit of evidence that he's just not that good. Now, I suppose every GM in the NFL missed on him, and he could go out and light the world on fire someday, but I've done the analysis about backups and rookies coming into the league for stretches of good play that last 3-4 games, and then their true talent level shows up. I've seen nothing from Zappe that suggests he'll buck that trend.


That said, to be fair to him, nobody would buck that trend with this current roster.

 

[lexrageorge]

I do think there is a substantive difference between being prepared as a starter and being thrust into a relief role in a blowout. It's hard to glean much from this season's relief appearances with regards to Zappe's ultimate ceiling as a QB in the NFL, so I think it's reasonable for posters to focus on his career starts more than his relief appearances. And last season's Bears game was a massive coaching fail across the board, so again I don't put much stock in that game either.

Focusing on Zappe's 6 career starts so far, he seems like a capable backup, and probably should be slotted in for the QB2 position next season. No reason to cut him or trade him for a conditional 7th. Maybe, due to injury, he eventually gets an unexpected starting gig for most of a season somewhere in his future; there are worse QB's getting major minutes this season. But no reason for Bill/New GM to count on Zappe being the team's 2024 starting QB.

What we do know is that all NFL teams had a chance to claim Zappe for nothing at the start of this season, or later sign him off the practice squad with a promise of a starting gig. None did, despite having film of last season's performances against the Lions and Browns.

 

[Curt S Loew]

Do you really not understand why they gave a first rounder who flashed at times multiple chances while not giving the same to a less heralded, cheaper quarterback who has shown fewer flashes? Or are you just being dense?

Not to mention a QB they waived and any other team could have picked up.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

To me it's obvious the team plays better and makes more plays with Zappe as the QB. That much is certainly evident this year.

That being said, Zappe has clear physical limitations which he compensates for by being a gunslinger. He's better than Mac, but it's also clear to me he's not a starting-level QB in the league. He's Tommy Hodson.

The Pats will need a QB next year.