If this somehow had legal consequences, that would be a huge deterrent. The life time ban is a slap on the wrist.
This is referring to a different incident, which happened last night.The fan has been banned from Fenway for life
Fenway Park fans had just cheered Orioles centerfielder Adam Jones, who, the night before, was the target of a racial slur and a bag of peanuts hurled by a Boston fan. A Kenyan woman finished singing the national anthem, and Hennick basked in the unity of that song, sung by a woman of color, a moment of hope after the disturbing episode the night before.
And then it happened. A middle-aged white man, wearing a Red Sox hat and T-shirt, leaned over to Hennick and used a racial slur to describe the woman’s rendition of the anthem.
https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-red-sox/2017/05/03/hate-intrudes-again-at-fenway-parkOnce Hennick notified team security, the man who uttered the epithet was ejected and barred for life from Fenway. Team president Sam Kennedy called Hennick on Wednesday to apologize for what happened, according to Sox spokeswoman Zineb Curran. And Hennick said the Boston Police Department’s civil rights division contacted him to discuss the episode.
Yeah...and just for the record, I pretty sure it wasn't actually Chara. Zdeno, or the poster.I heard that call during my drive home. Yikes.
It did get me to thinking the same people who think Jones is lying would have no trouble believing a story about a white player being accosted by black fans in Yankee Stadium, and that's all you need to know about this situation.
Well, that poster that thought no one was reporting shit should be very excited that this idiot was turned in.This is referring to a different incident, which happened last night.
https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-red-sox/2017/05/03/hate-intrudes-again-at-fenway-park
Your question seems to contain its own answer.What kind of twisted asshole directs hate toward a little boy at the ballpark?
The twisted asshole either did it deliberately or with callous indifference to the feelings of the man's mixed race son and black FIL. Does it really matter which?When he heard the other fan’s hateful words, he was “aghast. But I wanted to be 100 percent sure I heard him right,” Hennick said.
Surely, Hennick thought, he must have misheard. The Jones incident had made nationwide news Tuesday and revived public recollections of Boston’s painful history on matters of race.
So Hennick asked if he had correctly understood the man and then repeated what he thought the man had just said.
“Yes, that’s what I said, and I stand by it,” the other fan told Hennick.
That’s not OK, Hennick said to the man. You can’t say that, he told the man.
“Why not?” the man replied.
I didn't mean it to be taken that in the 15-20 games a year I'm in our seats, there's an incident every single time. But 3-4 times a year, things happen that absolutely mystify me. Last year, a drunken 30 something told a kid in a Yankees jersey he was "a fucking loser like your dad" People told security. They never came. I heard a racist comment about JBJ last year coming a few rows behind me while JBJ was in the midst of a slump..something akin to "born and bred to play the game." Those were a couple highlights.It's possible for both of you to be right. It is possible that the culture in the bleachers at Fenway is such that it's dangerous to speak out against racism, and that it is naive to think it would make a difference.
I hate to think that's true, and I don't believe it is. I typically sit in the cheap seats several times a year, and I don't ever remember someone repeatedly yelling the N word (I can't specifically recall ever hearing it at Fenway Park). I have definitely asked/yelled at people to watch their mouth, and pointed out that there are kids nearby (yes, in the bleachers, and no, the kids were not mine). I think the worst response I've ever got was stinkeye, but usually it's more like a sloppy drunken bropology, with the offender giving hi-fives for the nearby kids and telling them it's not good to talk like that.
Now, maybe my experience is unique to me. I am physically bigger than most people, so my manners reminders probably don't take as much courage as they would coming from someone who is more physically vulnerable. Maybe the fact that I reflexively start shouting "dude, watch your mouth, there are kids around" when it gets to the F word, helps prevent things from escalating to the N word. Or maybe I have just been luckier, with who I sit near.
The individual responsibility for shouting racist stuff is on the person who did it. But the cultural and community responsibility is on the community where that stuff is tolerated and allowed to happen. It's not that thestardawg or anyone else is individually responsible for what some racist says or does within earshot, but if Fenway Park is a place where it's okay to shout racial epithets, that's on all of us. If it is more scary/dangerous to confront someone for saying the n word than it is to say it, then something is wrong. If the guy shouting racial epithets does it with impunity, while the guy who confronts him gets swung on, beer poured on him, etc, then that is a racist culture, and a racist community.
It should be that the racist is afraid to speak, not the other way around.
I've heard some people say that fans should police other fans, or at least say something to the guy spewing the racist garbage.And while you can tell someone to knock it off, when you are confronting both the offender and his three buddies, all who have been fueled with too many Busch light drafts before entering Fenway, you are putting yourself in a situation where you might end up in a fist fight, and as a father of two small kids, and someone who is a small business owner, I can't end up in the police log.
My experiences have been different, at least in part. I get to about 5-7 games a year when I am not sitting upstairs at Fenway. My usual mix is at least one in the CF bleachers and most of the rest in the loge on the Sox side. In any event, I've been surprised in recent years about how up in your face the security crew is when someone razzes an opposing player. It's weird to me that they come down so hard on that, as I always thought that clean language ribbing is an optional part of the fan experience, as is riding the umps. I've seen security overreact to that several times over the last few years and another poster told a story last season and then recently about when the cops got overly involved on a very quick trigger basis near the visitor bullpen. Admittedly, nothing I've seen or can remember has involved racist comments or drunkenness.The team needs to be more diligent about not overserving the blind drunk, not ignoring the folks who are becoming increasingly more belligerent during the game, and taking all threats seriously, instead of watching/assisting people taking selfies and half heartedly scanning the crowd every 15 minutes or so.
The problem is that citing this as a valid concern in the context of public racist comments implies that the two concerns are on the same footing, and deserve equal consideration. They don't; you're just whining.The premise seems to be that if you get caught up in that, it must mean that you don't care about the real issue, or that you will deny, whitewash or ignore it. But that simply isn't true. It is not binary. Life is complex and issues like this one are complex. We can be laser focused on making sure athletes and fans are not subjected to racist taunts and more broadly, that real progress is made on racism in American AND, at the same time, be eaten up inside as to how this affects the perception of Boston across the country and the world...
I am from Massachusetts but do not live there now. Many of my friends and colleagues know that, and know that I am a Boston sports fan. As a result, I am sometimes their first address for zingers and honest questions and everything in between about all things Boston. My e-mail in box would suggest that many outside Boston actually think that the ballpark Monday night featured pervasive racist chants and that Boston remains a very racist place and unusually so.
Your take does not remotely reflect my view. That you could reach that conclusion surprises me greatly given my regard for your posting in general. My post was much more nuanced than you suggest and I specifically wrote -- and think -- that the first question is much more important and relevant than the second. I expressly said that they are not equivalent.The problem is that citing this as a valid concern in the context of public racist comments implies that the two concerns are on the same footing, and deserve equal consideration. They don't; you're just whining.
It's why "Yeah, but not all college guys are sexual predators!" is not an acceptable, much less helpful, contribution to a conversation about the prevalence of sexual assault on college campuses. Instead of addressing the underlying problem, you're just saying, at best, "Well. I concede that this was a terrible thing. But, can we focus for a second on the fact that it wasn't me that did it? Can we clear that up first? Because this is really very inconvenient for me, this whole dirty business."
I do not follow what you are saying or what you think is telling.What drleather2001 said (before I could post a far less pithy comment).
The order of priority that one gives to the two disparate issues, esp. in the context of racism, is quite telling.
Well I am not writing back so I can have the last word...and I hear what you are saying. To me, discussing them both at the same time does not suggest or indicate equivalence. Like I said, I think we can all fire multiple guns at the same time and still see a clear order of priority of concerns.I used the phrase "in this context". For the short term, it seems to me that the focus should be on the racist behavior, which we both agree likely occurred. Sure, we can juggle two or more thoughts at once, but politically - small p - raising the second issue immediately creates the inference, fair or unfair, that we're treating the two concerns as being of equal weight, and that by implication shifts focus away from the incident. That, despite any averments to the contrary we may assert, and yes, I do assume yours are in absolute good faith. I just think it's unwise to be juggling both in the immediate aftermath of the incident(s). There's plenty of time to address misperceptions about Boston.
As for "quite telling", all I meant is that your focus on both issues at once blurred the importance of the incident. I did not mean to suggest you intentionally did so, simply that I thought it was the consequence of your argument. Apologies for anything more than that.
Edit: Our comments keep crossing. I'm not trying to have the last word, so fire away if you wish.
I think an important thing to remember is that the busing crisis happened 40 years ago, and a very significant portion of the Boston population was either not yet born, or not old enough to have had anything to do with it. People don't like being blamed for stuff that happened before they were born - that's totally understandable.Boston's reputation has been in the gutter on race pretty much since the busing crisis, and people feel targeted. I remember the thread here when Barry Bonds said he could never play in Boston because it's racist, and people got all out of shape here (without remembering that his father played center field. For the Yankees.) And for good reason at times.
Rather big "if" there.Yeah, I don't want to disparage anyone, but for my part, I'm happy to take taunting about Boston being racist for the rest of my life from every single person I interact with if it means that less people are victims of actual racism.
If you are referring to me, despite the comments above, I did not draw any equivalence between the two. And if my initial post gave you or anyone else the impression that I did (or that was in my head somehow), I am again reiterating that is simply not the case.Yeah, I don't want to disparage anyone, but for my part, I'm happy to take taunting about Boston being racist for the rest of my life from every single person I interact with if it means that less people are victims of actual racism.
Drawing any kind of equivalence between the two things seems crazy to me.
I'm not disagreeing that you, or anyone, can have two thoughts going on at the same time. But when an issue presents itself in the public forum, it's very easy to get it sidetracked and draw attention away from it, even inadvertently. And topics have a limited time in the spotlight, so any side-topic ultimately takes time away from the main one. This phenomenon is central to how modern politics works. So sometimes its important to just refrain from talking about secondary issues, especially when they are, frankly, kind of self serving.Your take does not remotely reflect my view. That you could reach that conclusion surprises me greatly given my regard for your posting in general. My post was much more nuanced than you suggest and I specifically wrote -- and think -- that the first question is much more important and relevant than the second. I expressly said that they are not equivalent.
And I don't at all think this thing is inconvenient. To the contrary, I think that on balance that it came out is a positive...because it can be an agent for change. Change that is sorely needed, apparently.
Racism is disgusting, vile and scummy. People who feel/act/verbalize it should be embarrassed, maybe publicly shamed.If this somehow had legal consequences, that would be a huge deterrent. The life time ban is a slap on the wrist.
Free speech doesn't apply to private venues, such as a ballpark. Joe Racist can say whatever he wants on Yawkey Way, but when he buys a ticket and enters Fenway, he's agreed to comply with certain rules of behavior, including not calling ball player's n------ and not accosting other fans with racist language.Racism is disgusting, vile and scummy. People who feel/act/verbalize it should be embarrassed, maybe publicly shamed.
But why is it that we should take away free speech?
Of course. I totally agree. That one issue dwarfs the other does not mean that two issues do not exist.All I'm saying is that the people in this thread complaining about being cast in an unfair light cannot equate that to racism. They aren't the same thing. I realize that looking only at the prejudice itself can lead one to the idea that it is a difference of degree. But the effects are a difference in kind. Taking taunts from your buddies, or having to defend yourself once in a while on the internet is so mild as to be zero compared to having to worry about access to education or whether your son will be incarcerated or dead before age 25.
I'm not sure I would characterize the WEEI Racist Moron as a "large part of it's media and fans". I can't speak for the fans, but the overwhelming majority of the local media did not all question Jones' story or attempt to defend the behavior of the so-called fans in the park that day.Boston deserves the lumps it's getting. The incident took place and a large part of it's media and fans spent the better part of the days that have followed desperately trying to prove Adam Jones lied, accusing him of pulling the race card, berating anyone that took his word for it as "pandering fools," whining defensively about how hard it is to hear that Boston is racist from their friends at work, declaring the city of Boston a victim in the event. The guy who runs the biggest Red Sox message board on the internet suggested Jones had a hand in the incident by using walk-up music that is "all one big N-word." The horrors of receiving emails referencing the reputation from "a buddy" while at work.
Then Fenway couldn't get through an entire day without repeating the incident, this time aimed at a young woman singing the National Anthem.
People on this site cast entire fanbases as "this" or "that" regularly, and now that this has gone down, you want them all to absorb all this dubious nuance about your city?
World's tiniest violin.
Wait. What?Racism is disgusting, vile and scummy. People who feel/act/verbalize it should be embarrassed, maybe publicly shamed.
But why is it that we should take away free speech?
Sure and the Sox have every right to kick them out and tell them never to come back but the issue was taken with the statement that this should have legal consequences.Free speech doesn't apply to private venues, such as a ballpark. Joe Racist can say whatever he wants on Yawkey Way, but when he buys a ticket and enters Fenway, he's agreed to comply with certain rules of behavior, including not calling ball player's n------ and not accosting other fans with racist language.
Hate speech is not the same as free speech.But why is it that we should take away free speech?
I said: "a large part"I'm not sure I would characterize the WEEI Racist Moron as a "large part of it's media and fans". I can't speak for the fans, but the overwhelming majority of the local media did not all question Jones' story or attempt to defend the behavior of the so-called fans in the park that day.
I'm assuming he was referring to the 'legal consequences' part of what he quoted.Wait. What?
If an overwhelming majority is saying A, then those saying B would more accurately be described as "tiny minority" as opposed to "not overwhelming majority" or "large part". Callahan and his minions clearly fall into "tiny minority".I said: "a large part"
You said: "not an overwhelming majority"
Ok.
Boston deserves the lumps it's getting. There is no "second issue," as TS wants to describe it.
Shockingly (sarcasm intended), you have twisted my point. My point was not remotely that I deserve sympathy regarding e-mails from friends. That's beyond silly.Boston deserves the lumps it's getting. The incident took place and a large part of it's media and fans spent the better part of the days that have followed desperately trying to prove Adam Jones lied, accusing him of pulling the race card, berating anyone that took his word for it as "pandering fools," whining defensively about how hard it is to hear that Boston is racist from their friends at work, declaring the city of Boston a victim in the event. The guy who runs the biggest Red Sox message board on the internet suggested Jones had a hand in the incident by using walk-up music that is "all one big N-word." The horrors of receiving emails referencing the reputation from "a buddy" while at work.
Then Fenway couldn't get through an entire day without repeating the incident, this time aimed at a young woman singing the National Anthem.
People on this site cast entire fanbases as "this" or "that" regularly, and now that this has gone down, you want them all to absorb all this dubious nuance about your city?
World's tiniest violin.
Ignoring the first sentence nonsense, not in my observation. Pretty clearly so, too. Boston is not being mischaracterized.If an overwhelming majority is saying A, then those saying B would more accurately be described as "tiny minority" as opposed to "not overwhelming majority" or "large part". Callahan and his minions clearly fall into "tiny minority".
I don't give the first fuck about your point and was not responding to you.Shockingly (sarcasm intended), you have twisted my point. My point was not remotely that I deserve sympathy regarding e-mails from friends. That's beyond silly.
Can we please treat each other with more respect, civility, and cordiality? It does no good to the main cause at hand that we are all interested in (reducing racist acts and words) by needlessly using profanity.I don't give the first fuck about your point and was not responding to you.
Are you sure? Because I read it as, the guy who was making racists statements has a right to make racist statements because this is America where we have free speech and it's bullshit that the Red Sox kicked him out of Fenway Park forever.I'm assuming he was referring to the 'legal consequences' part of what he quoted.
That option has been there at Fenway for years. I'm guessing that's true of most other parks. The change based on this incident, hopefully, will be that more people will be apt to use it.Very late to the party.
* Have always been an AJ fan and see zero reason why he would be accused of making this incident up. Truly crummy that some of our members were on board with fostering that BS.
* Couldn't be more proud of the way Mookie and then the fans stepped up in support of AJ.
* The option to text security about a problem patron should be a must at all parks. That makes a lot of sense. Having seen a few incidents over the years, (though not racial ones) texting would have been a good option to report obnoxious, uncalled for behavior to security.
A 100%, no. But he was specifically responding to a post that said that a lifetime ban from Fenway park was a slap on the wrist and that there should be legal consequences to be a real deterrent. And being that would start to actually cross over into free speech issues, it strongly suggests that was his meaning (as others pointed out, there are no free speech issues with being banned from private property).Are you sure? Because I read it as, the guy who was making racists statements has a right to make racist statements because this is America where we have free speech and it's bullshit that the Red Sox kicked him out of Fenway Park forever.
But YMMV.
I know your heart is in the right place, but as appalling as hate speech is to the decent among us, it is protected free speech in most cases.Hate speech is not the same as free speech.
You mean acts and words like posting something like this:Can we please treat each other with more respect, civility, and cordiality? It does no good to the main cause at hand that we are all interested in (reducing racist acts and words) by needlessly using profanity.
Tell me more about how profanity is the real issue...Jemele Hill + Connecticut
http://sites.bu.edu/playitforward/schedule/
She should found a network called ERPN.
You saw what you wanted to see perhaps. But to be clear, suggesting that there should be legal consequences for what the country generally considers free speech would by it's nature remove free speech. I will try to communicate better.Are you sure? Because I read it as, the guy who was making racists statements has a right to make racist statements because this is America where we have free speech and it's bullshit that the Red Sox kicked him out of Fenway Park forever.
But YMMV.
To my knowledge (IANAL) hate speech (as vile and disgusting as it is) is still free speech unless it becomes threatening. Banning someone from private property for hate speech is of course acceptable (and I think desirable) as is public shaming in some fashion, but legal consequences (in the absence of a threat) seems to violate what our country has stood for.Hate speech is not the same as free speech.
From 6 AM through 2 PM you could have tuned into WEEI over the last 2 days and listened to nothing but questioning Jones and attacking any defense of him. Sure, weak caveats were issued, but that's what it was. That's 2/3 of their daily talk show programming. While I realize that is not the vast majority of the Boston media, it represents a very loud minority, especially to outsiders that view EEI as the "pulse" of the region, much the way that WFAN is considered that in NYC. I understand what you're saying, and you're not wrong, just letting you know what it looks like from an (sort of) outsider's POV.If an overwhelming majority is saying A, then those saying B would more accurately be described as "tiny minority" as opposed to "not overwhelming majority" or "large part". Callahan and his minions clearly fall into "tiny minority".
EDIT: Clearly, the city, the fans, and the team need to work to make the ballpark a more welcoming place for people of all races. I don't disagree that there's a lot more work to be done there, despite the progress that has occurred since the not so distant dark days. I just don't believe mischaracterizing the reaction of the city, the fans, or the team advances the discussion at all.