Boston Red Sox @RedSox 5m
Roger Clemens, Nomar Garciaparra, Pedro Martinez, and Joe Castiglione to be Inducted into the @RedSox Hall of Fame in 2014
Boston Red Sox @RedSox 5m
Roger Clemens, Nomar Garciaparra, Pedro Martinez, and Joe Castiglione to be Inducted into the @RedSox Hall of Fame in 2014
Rovin Romine said:If Clemens died in a plane crash the year he left for Toronto, he'd be very fondly remembered. A bit of a prick, a guy who never seemed to come through in big games/the post season, but not a horrible person.
It's everything that he did after leaving that has earned the hatred.
So I really shouldn't object to him being in the Sox HOF. Yet part of me does.
SeanBerry said:Nomar, Clemens and Pedro in the same class? Sounds like the Red Sox HOF wanted to remind us there is a Red Sox HOF.
JimD said:I'm not opposed to Roger Clemens being inducted into the Red Sox HOF, but why now? One could argue that Pedro, Nomar and Roger each deserved to be a headliner.
bosoxgrl said:Pedro should have his own day. Period.
syoo8 said:
He will, when his number is retired at Fenway. (His number will undoubtedly be retired once he is inducted into the HOF, yes?)
Devizier said:Clemens was already a statuatory rapist when he left Boston, right?
terrisus said:As others have said as well - it's not that I necessarily disagree with recognizing Clemens (certainly he played a significant part in Red Sox history), but, I would much have preferred, one, for it to have waited longer (maybe another 10 years or so), and, more importantly, two, not been in the same year as Pedro.
Pedro should have his own specific year of celebration really.
E5 Yaz said:
Yaz didn't, why should Pedro?
lambolt said:I wasn't really sure it was worthy of a topic on the main board so hopefully it's OK to put it out here in this thread, specifically about Nomar. He was my favourite player by a good margin (well, Pedro was in there too) and when I finally planned a trip to Boston to see the Red Sox, yes, in 2004*, I was beyond gutted when "the trade" went down literally weeks before we got there. Which totally fucking sucked. I didn't follow the game as closely when he first came up so I missed how utterly awesome he was before the wrist injury, but I mean he was still pretty damn good afterwards, how do you guys feel about Nomah, his career, the injury, "the trade" and what have you.
Does anyone have any good links or accounts (or book suggestions?) that really detailed what happened. I recall there was talk that he turned down something like a 4/64 contract or something that was a lot but short of Jeter/ARod, and then before you knew it, everything went tits up, I guess I will dig back through the MLB archives to try and piece together the timeline. I do remember thinking I bet he wished he'd snapped that contract up in hindsight. I felt like a lot of the exit stuff was typical Red Sox bullshit where they smear people on the way out, and made out he was sulking or refusing to play while Jeter was jumping into the stands but did the "true" story ever come out, or get reported from creditable sources on both sides? Was he just benched for injury, attitude problem, what?
Also, it DID bug me that the trade apologists trotted out the mantra that without the trade we would NOT have won the World Series. Pretty amazing parallel universe vision if you ask me. I know eyechart and OCab provided some great defense, but I seem to recall at the time thinking I don't know how you can say for sure that without the trade and with Nomar back on the grass we would not have won, or was there some kind of bad atmosphere that really would have ruined things?. Curious how the board here stands on the issue of the trade, now, in hindsight, and on the whole Nomar situation in general.
Anyway I thought he was the dogs bollocks and even found his pre batting glove and hand twitching routine tremendously entertaining to watch. My home 5 jersey has now been utilised exactly 14 times, including 12 world series game victories (and 2 losses). Sorry for the slightly moist fanboyish post but I'm genuinely interested in some opinions and links to good info here too.
*yes really, and yes I told everyone I chatted to that this would be the year, and I ended up getting to see 5 games including 4 vs the Orioles and Pedros last regular season start at Fenway (against the MFY).
Rovin Romine said:We picked up Pedro for the '00 season
LoweTek said:Regarding Clemens, I wonder if he would even show up?
Ramon AC said:
I agree with the vast majority of this post, but Pedro was acquired via trade before the 1998 season.
Nomar brought me back to baseball in the winter of 1997-98. I heard that the Red Sox had this shortstop who won a unanimous rookie of the year, and I started paying attention again in 1998 after taking a number of years off during the Boggs/Clemens decline years and the strike fiasco.
nattysez said:"And here's the Texas Con Man, the guy who headed north and started hitting the juice when Dan Duquette described him as being in the 'twilight of his career'... Roger 'Billy from Ohio' Clemens."
nattysez said:All will be forgiven if the Dentist writes the intros thusly:
"And now the greatest pitcher in Red Sox history...please sit down, Roger...Pedro Martinez!"
"And now one of the most electric home-grown talents Boston has ever seen, a prodigal son returned...please sit down, Roger...Nomar Garciaparra!"
"And here's the Texas Con Man, the guy who headed north and started hitting the juice when Dan Duquette described him as being in the 'twilight of his career'... Roger 'Billy from Ohio' Clemens."
Orel Miraculous said:It is really, really, really hard to overstate just what Nomar meant to the Red Sox and the fandom during those glorious early years. I would actually venture to say that I've never seen any Red Sox player who was more loved than Nomar was from 1997-2001. He meant more to the fans during that time period than Pedro in 2000, than Ortiz in 2004, and than Pedroia right now.
Why did he mean so much? Because of Scott Cooper, that's why. 1991 to 1996 was a dark time to be a Red Sox fan. Three straight sub-.500 teams from 92-94, which was followed by the strike, which was followed by a really fun out-of-nowhere postseason team in 95 that got curb-stomped by the Indians, which was followed by a disappointing third place finish and the ugly departure of the greatest pitcher in club history. 1995 aside (which, even at the time, people understood was kinda fluky) it was an absolutely terrible stretch--a putrid era that is best exemplified by the fact that Scott f'n Cooper was the lone Red Sox representative on the 93 AND 94 All-Star teams. Scott Cooper!!! He had a grand total of 22 homeruns over those two All-Star seasons and his OPS+ was 98. Yet there I was as an eight year old kid going NUTS in my living room when Scott Cooper was announced on national TV at the All-Star Game because he was our guy. Scott Cooper. Eight year old me went nuts for Scott Cooper. Sad.
No it doesn't. The Red Sox HOF =/= the RF facade.DanoooME said:So this likely means once Gomes leaves, he'll be the last one to wear #5.
First, to address the bolded, as we recently had the same argument regarding the Peavy trade: the fact remains the Sox did win in 2004, and OCab and Doug M. were part of that. It is essentially impossible to go back and determine what would have happened if Nomar had been with the team instead during that same stretch. They won the wild card comfortably, so it's not clear that the trade had any impact on their making the playoffs. There's not enough difference between Nomar's post-trade 0.819 OPS and Cabrera's 0.785 OPS to make that much of a difference. Mientkiewicz did not do a whole lot at the plate, but he did help them with positional flexibility in the field. As to the playoffs, Cabrera did drive in and score a key run early in the ALCS Game 4. But I can't find the post season fielding stats in 2004, so I really cannot judge his overall impact all that easily.lambolt said:I wasn't really sure it was worthy of a topic on the main board so hopefully it's OK to put it out here in this thread, specifically about Nomar. He was my favourite player by a good margin (well, Pedro was in there too) and when I finally planned a trip to Boston to see the Red Sox, yes, in 2004*, I was beyond gutted when "the trade" went down literally weeks before we got there. Which totally fucking sucked. I didn't follow the game as closely when he first came up so I missed how utterly awesome he was before the wrist injury, but I mean he was still pretty damn good afterwards, how do you guys feel about Nomah, his career, the injury, "the trade" and what have you.
Does anyone have any good links or accounts (or book suggestions?) that really detailed what happened. I recall there was talk that he turned down something like a 4/64 contract or something that was a lot but short of Jeter/ARod, and then before you knew it, everything went tits up, I guess I will dig back through the MLB archives to try and piece together the timeline. I do remember thinking I bet he wished he'd snapped that contract up in hindsight. I felt like a lot of the exit stuff was typical Red Sox bullshit where they smear people on the way out, and made out he was sulking or refusing to play while Jeter was jumping into the stands but did the "true" story ever come out, or get reported from creditable sources on both sides? Was he just benched for injury, attitude problem, what?
Also, it DID bug me that the trade apologists trotted out the mantra that without the trade we would NOT have won the World Series. Pretty amazing parallel universe vision if you ask me. I know eyechart and OCab provided some great defense, but I seem to recall at the time thinking I don't know how you can say for sure that without the trade and with Nomar back on the grass we would not have won, or was there some kind of bad atmosphere that really would have ruined things?. Curious how the board here stands on the issue of the trade, now, in hindsight, and on the whole Nomar situation in general.
Anyway I thought he was the dogs bollocks and even found his pre batting glove and hand twitching routine tremendously entertaining to watch. My home 5 jersey has now been utilised exactly 14 times, including 12 world series game victories (and 2 losses). Sorry for the slightly moist fanboyish post but I'm genuinely interested in some opinions and links to good info here too.
*yes really, and yes I told everyone I chatted to that this would be the year, and I ended up getting to see 5 games including 4 vs the Orioles and Pedros last regular season start at Fenway (against the MFY).
OilCanShotTupac said:I'm very happy that Joe Castiglione is getting the recognition he deserves. He has contributed as much to my enjoyment of the Red Sox as any player on the field.
DanoooME said:So this likely means once Gomes leaves, he'll be the last one to wear #5.
That will make a cool trivia question, who were the 3 guys to wear #5 after Nomar.
DanoooME said:So this likely means once Gomes leaves, he'll be the last one to wear #5.
That will make a cool trivia question, who were the 3 guys to wear #5 after Nomar.
Greg Blosser said:
Gomes, Baldelli... Punto?
Papelbon's Poutine said:Hey man, Nomar will for we be my binkie when it comes to favorite athletes - most of my passwords involve his name and always will - but his number shouldn't be retired. I wish they had t given it out to the Nick Puntos of the world and just left it "unofficially retired" (much like I wish the Pats has done with #11) but to put his number up on the facade would have been a stretch.
This is sort of true, but his 2003 was a weird season. He was hitting .326/.365/.558 on August 30th, and there was talk of him as an MVP candidate (he ended up 7th) and that he was back to being a star-caliber player. Then he collapsed, hitting .162/.236/.333 the rest of the way and just .265/.333/.327 in the playoffs. The team tried to trade him in the offseason (he was going to Chicago before the ARod deal fell apart). After two healthy seasons, he was hurt and missed much of 2004, and then he was gone. It went south really quickly. After playing 135+ games in six of his first seven seasons, he never played more than 122 games in a season again.Rovin Romine said:In '03, his star had dimmed quite a bit. Mueller, Ramirez, Nixon and Ortiz outhit him. Nomar was still very good, but he was to some extent overshadowed. There was serious talk that the new baseline for Nomar was .880 OPS, not the 1.000 he'd posted two years running before his injury.
This was the game Jeter dove into the stands (I could have sworn it was on national TV, but I guess it was just replayed a million times) and it was also the end of a three game sweep for the MFY that put the Sox 8.5 back in the division. Two more reasons Nomar never really lived this one down with the talk radio crowd.lexrageorge said:Then Nomar hurt his heel or foot in Spring Training, and we never really hear the exact story as to how it happened (rumors abounded, but nothing ever was confirmed). He misses the first 2 months of the season, and he struggles mightily in his first month back, not completely unexpected. Also not unexpected is the fact that Nomar does need to have a day off every few games while his heel recuperates. That all comes back to haunt him in that infamous July 1st game in Yankee Stadium, in which the Sox battle back from a 3-0 deficit to force extra innings, and then take a 1 run lead in the 13th. Eyebrows are raised when Nomar is unavailable even for pinch hitting duty, and Cesar Crespo grounds into a double play to end the 13th, and the Sox lose by a run in the bottom of the 13th. Shank and the gang obviously played this up for all it was worth, and it was never really clear if Nomar was even going to be allowed to pinch hit, or if he declared himself unfit for such duty. So now things are getting truly ugly.