Rodman: Bird couldn’t play in today’s NBA

[Euclis20]

Birds passing is really unlike anyone else in today's game. He was the master of the one touch pass. He wasn't dominating the ball like Doncic or Jokic.

Jokic is excellent at the one touch pass as well, and really doesn't belong in the same sentence as Luka when it comes to dominating the ball. Over the last 4 years, Luka was 2nd, 1st, 1st and 2nd in usage rate and all 4 years were in the top 20 all-time (basically prime Westbrook/Harden stuff). Jokic was 10th in 2022, and that was the only time in his career he finished in the top 20 in usage (he was 34th this year, tied with Brunson and Siakam).

Bird was far more ball dominant than Jokic, with 7 seasons in the top 20 in usage and 4 in the top 10.

 

[slamminsammya]

Jokic is excellent at the one touch pass as well, and really doesn't belong in the same sentence as Luka when it comes to dominating the ball. Over the last 4 years, Luka was 2nd, 1st, 1st and 2nd in usage rate and all 4 years were in the top 20 all-time (basically prime Westbrook/Harden stuff). Jokic was 10th in 2022, and that was the only time in his career he finished in the top 20 in usage (he was 34th this year, tied with Brunson and Siakam).

Bird was far more ball dominant than Jokic, with 7 seasons in the top 20 in usage and 4 in the top 10.

Usage is related to but not quite the same thing as "ball dominance". Denver's offense is primarily run through Jokic. His assists do not count for usage despite the fact he is frequently the focal point around which everything else is happening.

 

[wiffleballhero]

Where would Rodman be playing?

 

[Archer1979]

If you should be looking for proof that 80's hair dye can cause brain damage, here is Exhibit A.

Bird was a basketball savant. He was never the most athletic in one of the more demanding sports that require athleticism. He put the ball where he wanted to put it (another teammate's hands or the basket). He had incredible game situation skills. He knew exactly what to do with the ball before the ball hit his hands.

The true measure to see how good Bird was is to listen to his contemporaries. You can easily kill a day on YouTube looking for Larry Bird stories, whether its trash talking (he could back it up); walking into an arena and asking what the scoring record is there; or watching the end of the bench of the Atlanta Hawks cheering for him while he was pummeling them.

The biggest testimonial for Bird is when the 1992 Dream Team has named, and despite him barely able to walk, they wanted him on the team. He didn't really end up being a factor, but the Dream Team without Bird would have been like been like a watching a Beatles reunion and only Ringo showing up.

 

[Euclis20]

Usage is related to but not quite the same thing as "ball dominance". Denver's offense is primarily run through Jokic. His assists do not count for usage despite the fact he is frequently the focal point around which everything else is happening.

That's true (Jokic is definitely the center of their offense), but Jokic still doesn't belong in the same sentence as Luka when it comes to ball dominance. Here's another one: Jokic was 1st in touches per game, but was just 217th in average seconds per touch. He's the picture perfect definition of how to be the center of the offense without being ball dominant, the ball doesn't stick to him at all. For comparison, Luka was 5th in touches and 1st in seconds per touch.

Maybe it's more about defining exactly what ball dominant means, but other than being high scoring triple double machines, Luka and Jokic play very differently on offense. I'm comfortable saying that Jokic improves those around him, while Luka does not.

 

[slamminsammya]

That's true (Jokic is definitely the center of their offense), but Jokic still doesn't belong in the same sentence as Luka when it comes to ball dominance. Here's another one: Jokic was 1st in touches per game, but was just 217th in average seconds per touch. He's the picture perfect definition of how to be the center of the offense without being ball dominant, the ball doesn't stick to him at all. For comparison, Luka was 5th in touches and 1st in seconds per touch.

Maybe it's more about defining exactly what ball dominant means, but other than being high scoring triple double machines, Luka and Jokic play very differently on offense. I'm comfortable saying that Jokic improves those around him, while Luka does not.

I agree, my broader point was just that the offenses revolve around them to a far greater degree than the 80s Celtics

 

[Mooch]

Two more thoughts on this inane topic:

Bird wouldn't have worn down in today's "load management NBA". His prime probably would have been far longer with today's training methods and coaching.

If there's a team that would have been mostly irrelevant in the modern NBA, it would be Rodman's Pistons. Outside of Dumars and Laimbeer, they had zero outside shooting. Teams would pack the hell out of the paint and force them to beat them from the perimeter. Defensively, all of their hard fouls and "toughness" would get guys tossed and suspended left and right. They wouldn't have the speed to keep up with the modern NBA slash and kick style and they'd get picked apart.

 

[slamminsammya]

Mullets are back in so at least that wouldn't have to change.

 

[Van Everyman]

If you should be looking fir proof that 80's hair dye can cause brain damage, here is Exhibit A.

Bird was a basketball savant. He was never the most athletic in one of the more demanding sports that require athleticism. He put the ball where he wanted to put it (another teammate's hands or the basket). He had incredible game situation skills. He knew exactly what to do with the ball before the ball hit his hands.

The true measure to see how good Bird was is to listen to his contemporaries. You can easily kill a day on YouTube looking for Larry Bird stories, whether its trash talking (he could back it up); walking into an arena and asking what the scoring record is there; or watching the end of the bench of the Atlanta Hawks cheering for him while he was pummeling them.

The biggest testimonial for Bird is when the 1992 Dream Team has named, and despite him barely able to walk, they wanted him on the team. He didn't really end up being a factor, but the Dream Team without Bird would have been like been like a watching a Beatles reunion and only Ringo showing up.

Co-sign. Also, LOL at the idea that the single best player on the court for a few years in the 80s wouldn't be able to even get on the court in the 2000's. I mean, if JJ Redick wants to argue about Bob Cousy playing against plumbers and firemen in the 1950's, fine I guess -- I'm not sure, as I never saw that era myself, but that at least was 70 years ago. The idea that the game has changed so much in the last 35 years that a two-time MVP who was a brilliant shooter would have to play in Europe in an era where 3P-shooting is at a premium is ridiculous.

 

[BaseballJones]

Co-sign. Also, LOL at the idea that the single best player on the court for a few years in the 80s wouldn't be able to even get on the court in the 2000's. I mean, if JJ Redick wants to argue about Bob Cousy playing against plumbers and firemen in the 1950's, fine I guess -- I'm not sure, as I never saw that era myself, but that at least was 70 years ago. The idea that the game has changed so much in the last 35 years that a two THREE-time MVP who was a brilliant shooter would have to play in Europe in an era where 3P-shooting is at a premium is ridiculous.

FTFY

(and all three were in succession, making Bird the undisputed greatest player in the world in those years, over Kareem, Magic, Jordan, Isiah, Malone, Dr J, Worthy, Gervin, Bernard King, Barkley...everyone)

 

[Archer1979]

And for those that didn't watch in real time when Rodman came unglued in 1987...

After the Pistons were eliminated by Bird and the Celtics in Game 7 of the 1987 Eastern Conference Finals, Rodman was asked in the locker room about Bird’s performance and, according to a New York Times account from the time, said Bird was “very overrated” and that he had won three straight MVP awards only ''because he was white.''

https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamzagoria/2020/05/09/how-dennis-rodman-was-forced-to-apologize-to-larry-bird-over-racial-comments-in-1987/?sh=1f5de19c7d72

Years later:

"No like I just said, I was green then," Rodman said. "I was just saying anything man, just because. I was frustrated because guess why, I got my a** whooped. That's probably why I said something then. Not because I was angry or hatred came with it, it just came out just like that."

https://www.capjournal.com/arena/fadeaway_world/dennis-rodman-reveals-the-real-reason-he-said-larry-bird-is-overrated-because-he-is/article_bef7366c-91b5-564f-9f32-db92c9e5c85f.html

Thing with all this was that Thomas went along for the ride with Rodman on this at the time, which led to this presser with Bird basically saying it's no big deal. At the time, Thomas was also getting pilloried.

Bird/Thomas Press Conference

 

[Van Everyman]

FTFY

(and all three were in succession, making Bird the undisputed greatest player in the world in those years, over Kareem, Magic, Jordan, Isiah, Malone, Dr J, Worthy, Gervin, Bernard King, Barkley...everyone)

Ah, thank you.

And for those that didn't watch in real time when Rodman came unglued in 1987...



https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamzagoria/2020/05/09/how-dennis-rodman-was-forced-to-apologize-to-larry-bird-over-racial-comments-in-1987/?sh=1f5de19c7d72

Years later:


https://www.capjournal.com/arena/fadeaway_world/dennis-rodman-reveals-the-real-reason-he-said-larry-bird-is-overrated-because-he-is/article_bef7366c-91b5-564f-9f32-db92c9e5c85f.html

Thing with all this was that Thomas went along for the ride with Rodman on this at the time, which led to this presser with Bird basically saying it's no big deal. At the time, Thomas was also getting pilloried.

Bird/Thomas Press Conference

Yeah, they cover this in the HBO Magic & Bird doc. Bird comes off very well in terms of all the race stuff. He talks about growing up thinking the Black players who he would play after they got off work at a local hotel were simply the best players he saw. He also clearly rejects the "Great White Hope" stuff in the middle of his career. And, to your point, he has the grace to understand that guys like Thomas and Rodman were great competitors whose racial criticisms of his play wasn't really about him. After all, these guys were pilloried during the era for being thugs and hoodlums for how they played a sports game.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Bird wouldn't have worn down in today's "load management NBA". His prime probably would have been far longer with today's training methods and coaching.

His athleticism would have been better, too. I don't think the training he did in the 1980s was all necessarily good for him. Obviously he would make more use of the three. He's obviously be one of the top offensive players in the game today.

 

[Jimbodandy]

His athleticism would have been better, too. I don't think the training he did in the 1980s was all necessarily good for him. Obviously he would make more use of the three. He's obviously be one of the top offensive players in the game today.

Yeah the "plumbers and firemen" bullshit always cracks me up. The fastest human on earth in 1950 might not qualify for the olympic finals now. If Lebron smoked cigarettes and laid cement in the offseason, he would be five years into his retirement.

 

[TripleOT]

Yeah the "plumbers and firemen" bullshit always cracks me up. The fastest human on earth in 1950 might not qualify for the olympic finals now. If Lebron smoked cigarettes and laid cement in the offseason, he would be five years into his retirement.

The 1952 men’s gold medalist’s time was .35 seconds behind today’s qualifying time of 10.05 seconds.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

The 1952 men’s gold medalist’s time was .35 seconds behind today’s qualifying time of 10.05 seconds.

Equipment and track look a bit different than what is available today.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

His athleticism would have been better, too. I don't think the training he did in the 1980s was all necessarily good for him. Obviously he would make more use of the three. He's obviously be one of the top offensive players in the game today.

I know it's been covered here, but training is a joke. The story is that he first started having back issues after trying to dig his mother's driveway:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tR4JjeaAU8

 

[djbayko]

WRT to today's training standards, I'm trying to imagine a Lebron-jacked Larry Bird. It makes me laugh because the thought is so ridiculous. But damn, I wish we could see that in action.

 

[Euclis20]

Imagine a taller Luka who could shoot and cared too much.

This is basically it, plus I can't see him being an actual defensive liability. Maybe he wouldn't be be slightly below average on ball, but he was top 15 in steals per game 7 times and made all-defense 3 times, he was miles better than Luka on that end. Even if the league is a bit more athletic now than 40 years ago, being the best shooter in the league means more now than back then. He'd be more than fine.

 

[TripleOT]

Equipment and track look a bit different than what is available today.

View attachment 66611

As do the sprinters