No. But it could be an indication that he's slipping, or playing through a bad injury we don't know about, or that his role on the team has changed drastically as a result of the depth/injury issues and there is now too much on him.kenneycb said:So trade Bergeron?
It's certainly not the best stat, but that's not the same as worthless. Starting in the Cup year, Bergeron's +/- are: +20, +36, +24 (in lockout half-year), +38 (first year with R.Smith usually on his line)... 0.LogansDad said:Or it could be that +/- is a stupid stat.
Eddie Jurak said:It's certainly not the best stat, but that's not the same as worthless. Starting in the Cup year, Bergeron's +/- are: +20, +36, +24 (in lockout half-year), +38 (first year with R.Smith usually on his line)... 0.
What, if anything, it means is not clear, but there's probably a reason for it.
RBIs are not a great stat, either, but I doubt their are many hitters who are at or near the top of the league in RBIs for 4 seasons and then collapse to league average without it meaning something.
Eddie Jurak said:It's certainly not the best stat, but that's not the same as worthless. Starting in the Cup year, Bergeron's +/- are: +20, +36, +24 (in lockout half-year), +38 (first year with R.Smith usually on his line)... 0.
What, if anything, it means is not clear, but there's probably a reason for it.
RBIs are not a great stat, either, but I doubt their are many hitters who are at or near the top of the league in RBIs for 4 seasons and then collapse to league average without it meaning something.
Stats aren't stupid, they just are what they are. They can just be used in different ways, some of which are stupid.TheShynessClinic said:
What was the teams cumulative +/- those years?
What is it this year?
It's a stupid stat.
Tyler Seguin was top 5 in the league his second season here on the Bergeron line.
It's a stupid stat.
Yeah, the team isn't as good as it is in the past. That's what changed. TSC covered that.Eddie Jurak said:Stats aren't stupid, they just are what they are. They can just be used in different ways, some of which are stupid.
Bergeron was at or near the top of the team in +/- for 4 years with a variety of linemates. Usually Marchand, but significant time with Recchi, Seguin, and Smith among others. Now he is towards the bottom of the team. Something is different.
+/- says nothing at all about why that is the case - and it would indeed be stupid to argue otherwise - but it's a pretty clear sign that something has changed.
That, alone, does not explain why a consistent and established team leader in the +/- would be near the bottom of the team. That the team as a whole is weaker 5-on-5 doesn't, on its own, explain why Bergeron is not in his usual place among the team leaders - just not among the league leaders because he lacks the team support he has had in the past.kenneycb said:Yeah, the team isn't as good as it is in the past. That's what changed. TSC covered that.
How does that compare to prior years?cshea said:Bergeron has been elite this year. 21.4 CorsiRel, 2nd in the league among regulars. 19.0 CorsiOn. Again, 2nd amongst NHL regulars. This while getting 46% OZone starts and facing the toughest competition night in night out.
Without Bergeron we'd be truly fucked.
cshea said:His PDO is 965. He is being torpedo'd by an .883 on ice save percentage. That'll play into a poor +\-.
His CorsiRel last year was 20.4 and CorsiOn was 23.40. He's the same, elite, player he has always been.
Well that's interesting. Is the low save % a fluke or something not picked up in the possession stats? Does every player have an big outlier like this every few years?cshea said:His PDO is 965. He is being torpedo'd by an .883 on ice save percentage. That'll play into a poor +\-.
His CorsiRel last year was 20.4 and CorsiOn was 23.40. He's the same, elite, player he has always been.
NHL.com is adding them before the end of February, but for now I use behindthenet.ca and stats.hockeyanalysis.com for most of them. Hockeystats.ca is good for in-game numbers. They update in real-time and have the usage charts. Coo resource to use during games.LogansDad said:Hey, cshea, where do you get all these advanced stats from? I would like to be able to back up my statements with more than "eye test" stuff.
He has also been forced to play with paille a bit. As I mentioned in the trade thread paille is a team worst-10 yet Campbell is a plus player so those goals against must be happening largely when they aren't together because god knows they don't score 5 on 5.kenneycb said:And one of his linemate's has scored two goals over the last two months.
It is kinda great and kinda stupid at the same time.TheShynessClinic said:
Tyler Seguin was top 5 in the league his second season here on the Bergeron line.
It's a stupid stat.