So Duran, and Masa in the outfield. We need a better option to fill that out. Having Rob Refsnyder to fill out the outfield isn't sounding great. Lourdes Gurriel Jr. ?
He has a very strong arm (Savant has him in the 97th percentile), but not necessarily that accurate. Usually takes pretty good routes & shows pretty good instincts, but I don't think he's athletic enough to really be a ++ RFer. Could certainly be ok out there, though.Is Abreu a plus defensive RF in Fenway? I’m not seeing that but if someone like JM3 is willing to pull up some type of minor league data that suggests that I’d love to see it. Duran might be athletic but he’s not a CF. He has horrific instincts in the OF and looks like a deer caught in the headlights every time he gets near an OF wall. He was among the worst CF in baseball on OAO. So what I’m seeing is that they traded the best defensive player on their 23’ team despite defense being their single biggest weakness, and supposedly their goal is to compete next year.
I posted on this upthread (#212). The limited evidence we have suggests yes.Is Abreu a plus defensive RF in Fenway? I’m not seeing that but if someone like JM3 is willing to pull up some type of minor league data that suggests that I’d love to see it. Duran might be athletic but he’s not a CF. He has horrific instincts in the OF and looks like a deer caught in the headlights every time he gets near an OF wall. He was among the worst CF in baseball on OAO. So what I’m seeing is that they traded the best defensive player on their 23’ team despite defense being their single biggest weakness, and supposedly their goal is to compete next year.
I’m not at all confident that Abreu can handle right field in Fenway, certainly not like Dugie handled it last year. People seem to write off Dugie as easily replaceable because they apparently don’t value what he provided to the team defensively.
Last year this team was the second worst defensive team of the Statcast era and Dugie was their best defensive player. RF defense was literally their only defensive strength (until the end of the season when Story came back). And now, the beginning of the rebuild starts with getting rid of that strength.
They could of easily flipped this and created one of the best defensive OFs in baseball by keeping Dugie, committing to Rafaela in CF and moving Duran to LF. Instead they traded Dugie to the fucking Yankees for a bunch of lottery tickets.
So yeah, I’m not happy with that, but again, I fully understand it’s early in the off-season so it’s not as if I’m calling for Breslow’s head. One thing I do worry about though is that this ownership has a long history of encouraging their GM’s to act with autonomy and then firing them for doing just that. So yeah, ballsy move to go full Bloom with a trade to the MFY for his first big move, but he should know that that very type of ballsyness is what got Bloom fired.
I get that you're upset over moving what was the best defensive OF on the team, but there's no reason to expect Verdugo can't be replaced and that Rafaela and Duran can't get their opportunities to shine. And FWIW you really don't seem sold on Duran's ability to become part of the best defensive OF in baseball.Is Abreu a plus defensive RF in Fenway? I’m not seeing that but if someone like JM3 is willing to pull up some type of minor league data that suggests that I’d love to see it. Duran might be athletic but he’s not a CF. He has horrific instincts in the OF and looks like a deer caught in the headlights every time he gets near an OF wall. He was among the worst CF in baseball on OAO. So what I’m seeing is that they traded the best defensive player on their 23’ team despite defense being their single biggest weakness, and supposedly their goal is to compete next year.
Hard to feel too good about drawing conclusions from DRS as compared to OAA, especially over such a SSS.Totally agree. We've had low ISO guys in the outfield corners for too long.
Yoshida's final numbers are also fairly low but he had a .200+ ISO from mid-April through mid-July and I'm still hopeful we see more of that guy.
In his brief time in the outfield Abreu was a +2 DRS in 169 innings. That's quite good if it holds up — Verdugo was +9 in 1170 innings.
Total Boston outfielders, 2023 (Fielding Bible defensive runs saved):
Verdugo: +9 in 1170 innings
Kiké: +2 in 87
Abreu: +2 in 169
Refsnyder: 0 in 435
Rafaela: 0 in 117
Tapia: -1 in 176
Yoshida: -4 in 713
Duvall: -4 in 692
Duran: -6 in 731
I was thinking his deficiencies might be able to be hidden in LF. Hard to play a fly ball into an inside-the-parker in Fenway’s LF…lolI get that you're upset over moving what was the best defensive OF on the team, but there's no reason to expect Verdugo can't be replaced and that Rafaela and Duran can't get their opportunities to shine. And FWIW you really don't seem sold on Duran's ability to become part of the best defensive OF in baseball.
That’s a bit too small a sample. I was more interested in minor league data, though I’m not sure that exists.I posted on this upthread (#212). The limited evidence we have suggests yes.
http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?threads/the-dugie-down-bronx-red-sox-trade-alex-verdugo-to-yankees.41218/post-5872782
If feel fine with him in LF, of course. But “corner Ofer” has two entirely different meanings in Fenway, depending on whether you’re talking about left or right. As far as I can tell, we now have one guy (Rafaela) who’d clearly be okay in Fenway’s RF, but I had seen him as a better fit for CF.Hard to feel too good about drawing conclusions from DRS as compared to OAA, especially over such a SSS.
I would be surprised if he's an abjectly bad corner outfielder, though.
I meant as opposed to CF where I don't think he really has the range for it to work out great. Obviously if we have a better defender available & Abreu could play LF instead of RF that's going to improve your overall defense.If feel fine with him in LF, of course. But “corner Ofer” has two entirely different meanings in Fenway, depending on whether you’re talking about left or right. As far as I can tell, we now have one guy (Rafaela) who’d clearly be okay in Fenway’s RF, but I had seen him as a better fit for CF.
I found Duran's defense more puzzling last season than in '22. In 22 he was just flat out bad, but for a time last season he seemed to be getting better jumps and taking better routes in CF then it mostly seemed to escape him again. From mid June to mid August he played 27 games in LF in addition to his time in CF. From memory he seemed a bit better there, but not great. To be fair, toward the end of that stretch he was dealing with some personal issues.I was thinking his deficiencies might be able to be hidden in LF. Hard to play a fly ball into an inside-the-parker in Fenway’s LF…lol
Before last season would anyone have considered Verdugo such an important defensive player?I’m not at all confident that Abreu can handle right field in Fenway, certainly not like Dugie handled it last year. People seem to write off Dugie as easily replaceable because they apparently don’t value what he provided to the team defensively.
Last year this team was the second worst defensive team of the Statcast era and Dugie was their best defensive player. RF defense was literally their only defensive strength (until the end of the season when Story came back). And now, the beginning of the rebuild starts with getting rid of that strength.
They could of easily flipped this and created one of the best defensive OFs in baseball by keeping Dugie, committing to Rafaela in CF and moving Duran to LF. Instead they traded Dugie to the fucking Yankees for a bunch of lottery tickets.
So yeah, I’m not happy with that, but again, I fully understand it’s early in the off-season so it’s not as if I’m calling for Breslow’s head. One thing I do worry about though is that this ownership has a long history of encouraging their GM’s to act with autonomy and then firing them for doing just that. So yeah, ballsy move to go full Bloom with a trade to the MFY for his first big move, but he should know that that very type of ballsyness is what got Bloom fired.
I just think that the Sox having a historically bad defense last year was a big issue and it’s something that needs to be improved if they are really going to compete next year.Before last season would anyone have considered Verdugo such an important defensive player?
Guys can get better, things can change, we can get new players. This is the first salvo.
CedanneSo Duran, and Masa in the outfield. We need a better option to fill that out. Having Rob Refsnyder to fill out the outfield isn't sounding great. Lourdes Gurriel Jr. ?
My feeling is that better infield D would go a long way to making the overall defensive situation feel a lot better. That group wore the biggest clownshoes all year.I just think that the Sox having a historically bad defense last year was a big issue and it’s something that needs to be improved if they are really going to compete next year.
This move very much is not a step in that direction. But yeah, let’s see what happens. I personally dread having to watch Duran man CF again, but I suppose that’s not a certainty yet..
… defensive metrics can have single year aberrations that aren’t necessarily indicative of an improvement in true talent.Before last season would anyone have considered Verdugo such an important defensive player?
Guys can get better, things can change, we can get new players. This is the first salvo.
It's a very small sample size but Rafaela didn't have good range factors with Boston in 2023.Cedanne
As you said, it's a very small sample size, practically not even worth mentioning. One of Cedanne's AA coaches also coached Mookie, and said Cedanne is a better outfielder at the same time in their careers, much better.It's a very small sample size but Rafaela didn't have good range factors with Boston in 2023.
Personally I'd love to see what Cedanne can do at 2nd with a healthy Story at SS, having Reyes and Valdez as options there for some time in RF is a decent option as well considering how Reyes was playing in back half of the year. All that to say if this is even remotely true, than we should have a solid OF with Abreu and Refsnyder able to play the corners reasonably well. And hey, there's always Bobby Dalbec...As you said, it's a very small sample size, practically not even worth mentioning. One of Cedanne's AA coaches also coached Mookie, and said Cedanne is a better outfielder at the same time in their careers, much better.
I broke them out for you and started a discussion in V&N here.I'm going to lock this thread. If people want to discuss this further please start a thread in V & N and I'll move posts there.
And thus, the SoSH moniker “John Henry’s Illegitimate Son” was born……What the deuce is V&N? The link says that I don’t have permission or some such nonsense.
Views and News. It is one of our members only forums.What the deuce is V&N? The link says that I don’t have permission or some such nonsense.
Good riddance. Let him be a problem child for Aaron Boone.View: https://twitter.com/ChrisCotillo/status/1737950078197752057
I am positive that Cora gave you many chances ... You do not get benched after being late to the Ball park only once..... that happens after someone who habitually is late or breaks rules
Also, part of what Cora said that day (paraphrasing) "he wasn't at all ready to play"View: https://twitter.com/ChrisCotillo/status/1737950078197752057
I am positive that Cora gave you many chances ... You do not get benched after being late to the Ball park only once..... that happens after someone who habitually is late or breaks rules
View: https://twitter.com/therealjpap58/status/1738253661745397908?s=46Verdugo I mean Vertigo is a Bitch. Cora has his players and teammates backs more than anyone in the game. You aired yourself out by being late, lazy and unproductive. If I played for Cora I’m drilling this bitch, just saying.
After this I can't think of a better place to have traded Verdugo than to the Yankees. Except maybe back to the Dodgers.
Regrettable but unsurprising word choice but it does make you wonder if there is some bad blood here, that will be amplified with Verdugo now playing for the rival. Clearly, Cora wasn’t a big fan. Wonder what the players think.
Paps will be on weei later today to elaborateAfter this I can't think of a better place to have traded Verdugo than to the Yankees. Except maybe back to the Dodgers.
Verdugo's not-so-subtle comments sparked the ire of Red Sox fans, and also grabbed the attention of the team's all-time saves leader. Jonathan Papelbon ripped into Verdugo in a social media post via X/Twitter on Friday, calling him "late, lazy, and unproductive." Papelbon's criticism didn't end there either, as he expressed support for Cora by saying, "If I played for Cora I'm drilling this b----, just saying." Papelbon addressed his post on-air with WEEI hours later.
"I tweeted what I tweeted, I think we know where I stand on this," Papelbon explained to WEEI. "The game doesn't have a place for this BS, calling each other out on stuff that isn't even really true. Dude, you don't play hard. That's why you're not in a Sox uniform anymore... Just hold yourself accountable -- there's zero accountability here. To me, this is billboard material. The Sox will use this next year when they play the Yankees... No question about it.
https://www.audacy.com/weei/sports/red-sox/jonathan-papelbon-doubles-down-on-jabs-at-alex-verdugo?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twittert's bad all the way around. Just move on, man. Don't throw stones in a glass house, that's what's going on... I know for a fact that Cora goes to the grave for his players and teammates. [Verdugo] isn't a Mike Trout or Shohei Ohtani. He's not a premium player. That's why we got rid of him. If he was a premium player and could actually affect the game in a good, positive way, you don't think we would've kept him?... I'd expect him to be a little bit better than to go off and start saying this about a former manager."
What did Cora do wrong here? Verdugo was the one who opened his mouth, and Papelbon doesn’t even work for the team.I hate this drama. It’s so unnecessary. I liked Dugie he was fun to root for. He’s obviously passionate, I don’t know exactly what happened last season to get him at odds so much but it’s turned ugly and neither side looks good.
As someone who dislikes Cora a lot, it’s just coming off as petty. Not everything needs a response. I’m probably alone on this. I can understand Dugie not being happy to be traded and from a fan perspective, the Sox just continue to spiral and feel like no one is steering the ship from the top down.
I mean, we're talking about the clear cut best player in the game, Alex Verdugo. Cora should have let him show up whenever he wanted in whatever condition that such a talent wanted to play in. The nerve to try and motivate such a proven, accomplished player...What did Cora do wrong here? Verdugo was the one who opened his mouth, and Papelbon doesn’t even work for the team.
There is a long list of former Red Sox who would be characterized like this and I still fully embrace them coming to Fenway and calling the Red Sox "we".It’s interesting that Paps, despite not ending with the Sox and almost half of his career not here - says “we” when talking about the Sox.
Most of the "Cora is a genius" narrative floundered with his actual lousy game choices and the resulting record. It retrenched into "Cora is a genius because he builds a great clubhouse and can reach players and motivate them."I mean, we're talking about the clear cut best player in the game, Alex Verdugo. Cora should have let him show up whenever he wanted in whatever condition that such a talent wanted to play in. The nerve to try and motivate such a proven, accomplished player...
Given that Verdugo is literally the only player that has had such an issue with Cora, I don't think it's a leap of faith to say that Verdugo is in the class of "not everyone" above. There have been players Bill Belichik has not been able to reach. Or even Terry Francona. Some of care less about what Verdugo thinks than Papelbon, which is OK.Most of the "Cora is a genius" narrative floundered with his actual lousy game choices and the resulting record. It retrenched into "Cora is a genius because he builds a great clubhouse and can reach players and motivate them."
But the team quit on Cora last year down the stretch and Verdugo is Exhibit A for him "not reaching players," given that Cora snipped and sniped and "tried to motivate him" and totally failed.
To be fair, not everyone can be reached. But a true genius, an actual 1%er in the field, could probably have managed it.
Cora does not have to be a true genius to be a competent average-ish manager. But let's not pretend he's anything other than what he is.
***
And also, who gives a fuck about what Papelbon thinks? He's clearly not the sharpest knife in the drawer. Or the neighborhood.
It's almost as if I had written: to be fair, not everyone can be reached. But a true genius, an actual 1%er in the field, could probably have managed it. Cora does not have to be a true genius to be a competent average-ish manager. But let's not pretend he's anything other than what he is.Given that Verdugo is literally the only player that has had such an issue with Cora, I don't think it's a leap of faith to say that Verdugo is in the class of "not everyone" above. There have been players Bill Belichik has not been able to reach. Or even Terry Francona. Some of care less about what Verdugo thinks than Papelbon, which is OK.