The Game Goat Thread: vs Seahawks
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I keep forgetting he's on the team, given that he bears as much resemblance to a professional football player as he does to Ethel Merman.
The thing that kills me with him is that his fumbles are all of the soft variety. He's not getting blasted out there.
He sucks, he's a waste of a draft pick, and it would be better for all involved if they just cut him now. He's Wheatley redux. He brings nothing to the team.
It seems like Wilson was 37/37 last night on balls he essentially threw straight up in the air.
If we're going to lose, losing to an NFC teams is best. Schedule isn't too daunting the next month or so, so I gotta think they can figure some things out on defense--last night the bend but don't break broke.
If we're going to lose, losing to an NFC teams is best. Schedule isn't too daunting the next month or so, so I gotta think they can figure some things out on defense--last night the bend but don't break broke.
What are they going to figure out? Are Ryan or Coleman going to suddenly become capable NFL CBs? If Roberts going to morph into Lawrence Taylor? Of course not.
They're healthy back there too. They just suck. They're going nowhere this season. There's no chance they win a road playoff game. The defense couldn't stop Seattle all night. Couldn't stop the run by a midget RB. Couldn't stop the passing by a dwarf QB. Couldn't cover Baldwin, the dwarf WR. They're fucking terrible in every way. Did they do anything well last night? Sure, they allowed 7 trips into the red zone and Seattle didn't score TDs on all of them. Whoop-de-damn-do.
EDIT: also, if we're talking goats, Belichick has to step up and take blame. He talks all the time about minimizing distractions and putting the team first, and then distracts the team by getting involved in public political statements last week. That was really stupid, selfish and short-sighted of him, and it could not have possibly helped this week in preparing for the game. I was extremely disappointed in his actions. He comes off like an enormous hypocrite.
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Really? We were talking about having HFA last year until suddenly we didn't have it. They're not beating anyone on the road, they're probably not winning in Denver in the regular season (where they never win) and they sure don't look like a quality defense this morning.
They lost by 7 last night, they didn't nearly beat anyone. If they scored the tying TD at the end and Seattle wins the coin toss in OT, the game is over because the defense wasn't going to be able to keep them out of the end zone.
They got exposed last night.
They lost by 7 last night, they didn't nearly beat anyone. If they scored the tying TD at the end and Seattle wins the coin toss in OT, the game is over because the defense wasn't going to be able to keep them out of the end zone.
They got exposed last night.
Listened to a ton of hot takes this morning. I don't think the Trump endorsement distraction is the reason why this team lost. If that is going to shake a professional football team like the Patriots then I think 53 guys need to find new careers. What I do think happened is that the defense got exposed. To this point the Pats D has been largely untested same with the o-line. Tonight they played a super bowl caliber team and almost pulled it off despite having no defense and Brady playing the worst game he has in over 2 years. The defense was exposed. It's up to Bill to fix it in house.
Would the defense look better if Jones and Collins were there? Of course. But it also would have been better had McDaniels spread the field instead of waiting for Gronk to exit to get Bennett involved.
Would the defense look better if Jones and Collins were there? Of course. But it also would have been better had McDaniels spread the field instead of waiting for Gronk to exit to get Bennett involved.
Road game or not, they aren't going 3-0 against Oakland, Pittsburgh, Dallas/Seattle playing like last night. And having played virtually no playoff caliber QBs other than Russell Wilson and Andy Dalton yet, there isn't a ton of reason at the moment to think they can be better than last night.
Brady threw an absolutely boneheaded pick but saved the game 3 times on ridiculous completions. If that's the worst game he has all year they're going to be absolutely fine for the second half of the regular season. The issue is that isn't going to tell us much about how they'll fare in January given the weak slate ahead.
Brady threw an absolutely boneheaded pick but saved the game 3 times on ridiculous completions. If that's the worst game he has all year they're going to be absolutely fine for the second half of the regular season. The issue is that isn't going to tell us much about how they'll fare in January given the weak slate ahead.
Of course not. But they won't play that way every week.
Haven't we all watched enough sports to know that you're never as good as you look when you win and as bad as you look when you lose?
The defense is what it is. The offense is still ridiculous.
Season long Goat to Jabal Sheard who forces them to play Chris Long for 37 snaps where he registered nothing in the box score. Nada.
The goat horns have to start with BB and Patricia. They had two weeks to prepare for this game and to prepare the team for a revamped defensive plan. The score and the sub par play speak volumes. Yeah, maybe the guys on the defense aren't that good, but it's the coaching staff's job to put the players they have in the best position to succeed. That isn't happening.
SJH is on a roll or whatever, but Ryan was a capable CB most of last year and CBs are really hard to evaluate and inconsistent (except for the very best). I think if they can fix the #2 CB situation then things get a lot better -- not great, but in the realm of average, which is where they were last year.
A hallmark of BB teams has been setting the edge; this team hasn't been good in that regard this season, and last night they were atrocious.
Setting the edge, or playing zone, for that matter, are classic Pat tactics that rely on everyone buying into the "do your job" mentality. Last night was a MESS. It does make me wonder if BB saw the alleged Collins' freelancing as a potential bad apple poisoning the whole bunch thing. It certainly loooked like it last night.
The good news is that that can be coached up into improvement. This is the same secondary that looked pretty good for much of last year, but they have sucked this year. Harmon and DMC have been close to invisible in terms of INTs.
Setting the edge, or playing zone, for that matter, are classic Pat tactics that rely on everyone buying into the "do your job" mentality. Last night was a MESS. It does make me wonder if BB saw the alleged Collins' freelancing as a potential bad apple poisoning the whole bunch thing. It certainly loooked like it last night.
The good news is that that can be coached up into improvement. This is the same secondary that looked pretty good for much of last year, but they have sucked this year. Harmon and DMC have been close to invisible in terms of INTs.
Thery looked slow and ill-prepared last night, which ssemed strange coming off a bye week.
I'm not going to over-react, but the D just sucked last night.
A pass rush has to be found to give the secondary a chance.
The good thing is they might not really need it until and IF they meet Ben/Steelers in the post-season.
So there is time to get better and adjust to a post-Collins world.
And while they're locating a pass-rush maybe they can find some turn-overs.
I'm not going to over-react, but the D just sucked last night.
A pass rush has to be found to give the secondary a chance.
The good thing is they might not really need it until and IF they meet Ben/Steelers in the post-season.
So there is time to get better and adjust to a post-Collins world.
And while they're locating a pass-rush maybe they can find some turn-overs.
The #2 CB position looks terrible because they aren't good enough to stay with NFL wide receivers for an extended period of time. If the front seven isn't getting any pressure on the QB, the secondary will continue to get exposed. The pass rush is the biggest problem on a defense that seems to have nothing but problems.
It was a tough game, but it's not like they went out there and lost by 40. Good God. Seattle is arguably a top 3 team in the league. We lost the turnover battle, Brady wasn't his best, and we still had a chance at the end.
Now all of a sudden we can't win a road playoff game?
Now all of a sudden we can't win a road playoff game?
SEA was coming off a close MON night home win vs. BUF where the refs were 1000% worse than they were last night. I hardly think SEA is a top 3 team in the league.
Patriots teams shouldn't be losing at home after a bye when they are at 100% health. If this game was in SEA or SEA was coming off the bye or the team had some significant injuries I could understand.
The reality is they will never be this healthy and well rested the rest of the season. The schedule makers gave them a gift and they subsequently fumbled it away.
The offense and defense both played poorly. Offense had a chance to get an early lead after holding the Seahawks to field goals, those failed 2nd and 3rd drives were killers. Then obviously Edelman needs to hold onto the ball.
Defense is getting a lot of hate here, and deservedly so. But the offense had chances to win despite it all and couldn't do it.
Defense is getting a lot of hate here, and deservedly so. But the offense had chances to win despite it all and couldn't do it.
The offense was very, very good last night. They only had nine drives, largely because the defense could not get off the field, and they put up 24 points on one of the best defenses in the league (and of course, easily would have had three on the last drive if they hadn't needed a TD because the D was so poor all night). You're basically criticizing them for not being perfect.
Poorly is a bit harsh for a team that threw up 24 and was on the goal line at the end of the game against one of the best D's in the league. They didn't take advantage of everything, but that is far from poor.
I know we're talking goats, but I've been to a lot of games and the Edelman and Gronk passes were two if the best I've ever seen in person.
Brady's deep ball is better than it's ever been, I think.
Brady's deep ball is better than it's ever been, I think.
Sure, they sputtered a bit early when they had a chance to pile on, but they also converted a couple huge 3rd and longs to keep enormously important drives alive. Calling last night a poor effort seems like you are setting the bar way too high.
I don't know. Wilson is clearly more healthy than he has been the past few weeks. Prosise looked good. Maybe our D just made them look good, but aside from the Cowboys, I'm not seeing another team in the NFC that I would pick over them. Maybe the Falcons? In the AFC, I think we're clearly up there. Maybe the Raiders? Broncos/Chiefs?
No kidding. Between that and the defense clearly missing the talent of Jones and Collins, I put the goat horns clearly on the GOAT. It happens to the best, but his political BS was ridiculous. Beyond that, he wins time and time again on trades and personnel moves, but moving the most athletic defenders and leaving us with this crew is a serious downgrade. Yes, "do your job" is a big part of it, but some athletic superiority helps, too. And if it's dump talent for guys who just do their job, then the head coach should just do his job, too, and not introduce unnecessary distractions.
It was dead obvious on tv. Some terrible zone defense -- guys weren't getting physically beat, they were just confused about assignments. I've seen worse games from the Pats, but I've never seen them look so lost on assignments.
If the defense isn't going to be good enough to consistently stop opponents they need to be able to force some turnovers. This team is doing neither. They can't stop anyone and they can't get the occasional turnover to help their offense out.
I know overreaction venting is your thing, but declaring they aren't winning anything and can't win a road playoff game is a bit much. Ryan has played like a capable NFL cornerback before. Wilson and Baldwin are good players. They were in a competitive game with one of the best teams in the league because the offense is awesome. It will continue to be awesome as long as they remain healthy. The evidence doesn't bear out that this is a terrible defense, it bears out that it is an averageish defense and that the performance against the run last night was a bit of an aberration. Im not sure they got exposed, because the evidence from the first half of the year was that it wasn't a very good defense. BB usually gets some improvement out of the defense as the season goes on if everyone remains healthy.
On another note, I do think there's a potentially interesting discussion about whether the Patriots defensive philosophy needs a bit of a reboot.
This was the first quality team they played all year. They played the game at home. They were healthy. The opponent was missing their best defensive player.
And they got fucking torched.
They're not a championship-quality defense, not even an average one that the offense could carry to a title. They're dreadful. I cannot emphasize enough how goddamn clueless they were last night in the secondary, how terrible the DL was to get pushed around by an awful OL and allow a million yards to a RB that weighs about 55 pounds. They barely touched Russell. They gave him tons of time to throw. They didn't get a turnover.
Go look at the TD Seattle scored right before the half and then try to defend this defense in any way. My God. They passed Baldwin off to no one. It was embarrassing.
Just imagine this band of stumblebums in Denver in a few weeks. It's going to be ugly.
They lost by 7 points and were 1 yard away from tying the game. They did not "get fucking torched" in any reasonable sense. It is an averageish defense, or at least has been over the whole season to date, which I think is more accurate than looking at one game. Ive been on here for weeks saying the defense isn't very good, so Im not really trying to defend them. I think they are more likely than not to win in Denver, but of course could lose as well. That's how football works. If they win it will probably because the offense played awesome like it has in the five weeks since Brady came back.
They gave up 31 at home while healthy and never stopped Seattle all night even with Seattle using a OL made up of five Stephen Hawkings. That is getting torched in every sense of the word.
They were lucky they only lost by 7.
They were lucky they only lost by 7.
Not really. Both teams were pretty even, it was a very competitive game. The offense is really good and played really well last night. Not their best game in that they turned it over twice and missed their last two trips to the red zone, but still a very good performance and enough to make the game a toss up.
Miami and Houston have winning records. Pittsburgh, Arizona and Buffalo all have .500 records. The Pats beat all of those teams, and most of the games weren't close. (I'm giving them a mulligan for the loss where they started an injured rookie third-string QB.)
Seattle is the best team the Pats have played this season, and it's fair to say they were exposed -- to the extent any of us thought the Pats were head-and-shoulders above every other team in the NFL, we've been disabused of that. But saying that the Pats haven't played other quality teams and aren't a top-tier contender is overreacting to one game, where they were arguably one missed call away from forcing OT against one of the league's best teams despite turning in what we'd all agree was a subpar performance.
No one with a working brain thinks Miami and Houston are quality teams. Pitt was missing their starting QB. Buffalo is terrible. Arizona is better than all of those but this year aren't serious SB contenders. There's literally no comparison between those 5 teams and Seattle.
Long time reader, first time member. No need to be solicitious.
A) I think the Chandler Jones trade is looming huge. Thunney me no Thunney, please. He clearly made Shepherd and we are seeing the effects of his loss. Replacing Jones with a decrepit Chris Long and Brian Boswo-...sorry..Shea McClellin was subtraction by addition.
2) In my head, I can see BB saying to Patriarca, "you know, we got a little cushion, we got a non conference game, lets re-scheme the secondary a bit and see if that'll give us more options." because, he's BB, natch. it's the only thing I can think of to explain away the utter collapse of the secondary last night.
C) I hate bye weeks, even though, and I'm stunned to learn this, the Pats are 19-4 after them since 2003.
4) Sadly, Nink is a shell, putting extra snaps on Long, who doesn't have that much left himself.
5) What ever happened to Chung isolating on the tight end the whole game long? I blame the Owen Daniels catches on that shift. I mean, don't we love how LBs cannot cover Gronk and the unicorn? What makes BB think Donta or roberts can? Isn't White/Lewis main weaponry best unleashed on LBs?
While not jumping off any cliffs, I am looking at the Denver game with close the foreboding I was at the start of the season, after briefly relishing the fact that they no longer had the offense to keep up. This D is going to make Semen look good.
A) I think the Chandler Jones trade is looming huge. Thunney me no Thunney, please. He clearly made Shepherd and we are seeing the effects of his loss. Replacing Jones with a decrepit Chris Long and Brian Boswo-...sorry..Shea McClellin was subtraction by addition.
2) In my head, I can see BB saying to Patriarca, "you know, we got a little cushion, we got a non conference game, lets re-scheme the secondary a bit and see if that'll give us more options." because, he's BB, natch. it's the only thing I can think of to explain away the utter collapse of the secondary last night.
C) I hate bye weeks, even though, and I'm stunned to learn this, the Pats are 19-4 after them since 2003.
4) Sadly, Nink is a shell, putting extra snaps on Long, who doesn't have that much left himself.
5) What ever happened to Chung isolating on the tight end the whole game long? I blame the Owen Daniels catches on that shift. I mean, don't we love how LBs cannot cover Gronk and the unicorn? What makes BB think Donta or roberts can? Isn't White/Lewis main weaponry best unleashed on LBs?
While not jumping off any cliffs, I am looking at the Denver game with close the foreboding I was at the start of the season, after briefly relishing the fact that they no longer had the offense to keep up. This D is going to make Semen look good.
OK, but he's not old. No reason he can't get it back,or they can find someone else who steps up (Like I said I thought Rowe was better -- he had some PIs but at least he was in the right place). CBs are unpredictable outside of the very best ones. See: Browner, McCourty, Butler, etc.
They might not be quality teams but they might be top ten teams in the goatcluster that is this year's NFL.
If the Pats can get a bye even without upsets you're looking at a home game against a team like Miami or Houston, a home game against an Oakland/KC/Denver and then the superbowl against Seattle/Dallas. This offense is absolutely enough to get you there even if you don't have much defensive improvement.
Last year Sheard had 8 sacks in 13 games (he only started 1 of those). This year, he's played in all 9 games and started in 8 of them. Only has 3.5 sacks, 18 tackles, and hasn't forced a fumble. His disappearance in a contract year is one of this defense's biggest problems.
You're conflating "quality teams" with contenders. Yes, Seattle was the first team the Pats faced this season that has a realistic chance of playing in the Super Bowl, but you could much more easily name ten teams worse than Miami/Buffalo/Arizona/Houston than name ten teams better than those four.
The path to the Super Bowl won't be quite that easy. My guess is that DEN/KC/OAK will all make the playoffs, and the Pats will have to beat two of them.
Dude, I know this is your thing, but come on. The Patriots had 2 turnovers. It's not unrealistic to expect them to not be -2 in the turnover department. It's not unrealistic to expect they don't give up 80 yards in 60 seconds before the half. It's not unrealistic to expect the team doesn't register multiple false starts, offsides (on 3rd downs, no less), etc.
I'm completely on board with this defense being bad. At 7pm last night, I thought they were average. They're not, they're bottom third in the league. But the NFL sucks this year. It took a lot of unforced errors for the Seahawks to squeeze out this win. If the patriots can avoid Oak and DAL - two big, physical offensive lines that could control the game - they should be favorites.
They're a flawed team like every other team in the NFL. They aren't the powerhouse we were hoping for, but they still have legitimate SB aspirations.
Game had 7 lead changes. Seems to fit the very definition of competitive.
This is kind of the part that has me really worried. They are tied for 24th in interceptions and they only 9 forced turnovers total -- with only 2 in the last 6 games or so. Like going on 25 quarters with only two turnovers.
And that's with teams being perpetually behind against them.
I can't remember the last time a team this deeply flawed won the SB. Yes, last year Denver had the rotting corpse of Manning at QB, but their D was SO good that it more than made up for it. In 2006 Indy's D was not great, but their offense was tremendous.
This year's Pats team isn't good enough on offense to overcome such a horrible defense.
Denver's offense was much worse relative to league average than the Patriots defense is this year. Colts defense in 2006 too, literally one of the worst run defenses of all time in the regular season although they played much better in the playoffs.
I disagree that the Pats offense isn't good enough on offense to potentially overcome the defense.
I disagree that the Pats offense isn't good enough on offense to potentially overcome the defense.
