Because they didn't let Xander walk? He opted out and used his FA to try to lever a bigger contract. And he got an insane one in FA. That's 100% Xander and the Padres.I don't think letting Xander walk falls under that category.
Because they didn't let Xander walk? He opted out and used his FA to try to lever a bigger contract. And he got an insane one in FA. That's 100% Xander and the Padres.I don't think letting Xander walk falls under that category.
For the record my brother texted me about 10 seconds before I saw this thread, and I wish I could've placed a ton of money on who was going to start it!
If they want to alternate between two kinds of GMs for rebuilds and GFIN, why not hire two guys and keep both skill sets in-house?What GM in their right mind wants to come in and work for this ownership group at this point? This is an honest question.
Why exactly was there an opt-out clause in that contract?Because they didn't let Xander walk? He opted out and used his FA to try to lever a bigger contract. And he got an insane one in FA. That's 100% Xander and the Padres.
This is my opinion. I don't want to have a cycle of winning and bottoming out. I want a cycle of winning and mediocre-ing out. If they bring in another Dombrowski type, I'm going to be annoyed.If they think they can find someone to execute the same game plan more effectively, then okay. If this is yet another zig-zag, it's a disastrous mistake.
Was it because Xander refused to have one but the Sox strong armed him into one?Why exactly was there an opt-out clause in that contract?
Because Dave Dombrowski signed him to a contract with an opt-out clause because that's what he would accept in order to have the chance to become a free agent in his prime?Why exactly was there an opt-out clause in that contract?
I think rodderick's point wasn't that Sox ownership had a mandate to let Xander go. I do think they would have vetoed any deal that would have gotten him to stay once the SD deal existed, but there is a gap between Mookie and Xander there. I'm with you that it's 100% on the Padres insane offerBecause they didn't let Xander walk? He opted out and used his FA to try to lever a bigger contract. And he got an insane one in FA. That's 100% Xander and the Padres.
Why exactly was there an opt-out clause in that contract?
I just happened to see it on Twitter. Cotillo was the first.For the record my brother texted me about 10 seconds before I saw this thread, and I wish I could've placed a ton of money on who was going to start it!
Or let Bloom's successor determine Cora's fate.Also can indicate Cora won the power struggle.
I don't think there was ever a mandate to let Xander walk and Chaim had leeway to negotiate a deal that wasn't the Padres deal in the preceding off-seasons. I don't think it was a similar situation to Mookie at all. That's all I'm saying.Because they didn't let Xander walk? He opted out and used his FA to try to lever a bigger contract. And he got an insane one in FA. That's 100% Xander and the Padres.
I was referring to working Whitlock, Crawford and Houck into starters, bringing Paxton back. All of that happened, got some OK results for a while but didn't hold. Guys like that you need to know if they can hold down a rotation spot. That's what they spent the year figuring out. You're not just going to buy four starters on the FA market, where everything costs a premium and the failure rate is high.I don't see any strategy heading into '24. Bello and who? There isn't help coming in the minors.
I think you need to sign one and trade for one.If the real plan is to add two high priced pitchers this off-season, I feel confident that we will be doing this again in four years when the bloated payroll causes problems.
Okay, but the more of those guys you sign long term, the less you're able to see of your young prospective starters like Bello, Whitlock, Houck, Crawford, et al.At the end of the day the rotation was a disaster. The decisions don't look good. How did we miss on Efflin? Why let Eovaldi walk? There isn't much help coming in the minors either. He also let Erod walk - again defensible. But at the end of the day someone has to start. The state of the Dodgers is very different from Boston's - they could afford to take a gamble. Boston's rotation at the start of the year was nothing but a gamble.
Mondesi matters in that it wasn't a solution to a black hole at short.
I was always Bloom agnostic. But at the end of the day, the state of the rotation is not really defensible.
To be clear I would not have fired him.
"Be more like Atlanta!" Tell me who the replacement GM is that can do this. The last guy seemed focused on building the farm system and player development, which is how you become the next Atlanta, but they just canned his ass.I think fans think like this to get rid of Bloom because we see teams like Atlanta who have really good young players get paid under market value, while we watch big market Boston digging through the bargain pile (especially for pitchers).
Gotcha.I don't think there was ever a mandate to let Xander walk and Chaim had leeway to negotiate a deal that wasn't the Padres deal in the preceding off-seasons. I don't think it was a similar situation to Mookie at all. That's all I'm saying.
I will forever knock him for his failure to get under the luxury tax at the 2022 trade deadline.The idea that Bloom ever had a full payroll to work with is a bit disingenuous. He had to get out underneath DD's deficit, and then stay under the luxury cap. I don't really buy the idea that JH gave him carte blanche to rebuild.
You bring in the Rays guy to get them back to a good set up & take the PR hit. You bring in the Braves guy to win championships."Be more like Atlanta!" Tell me who the replacement GM is that can do this. The last guy seemed focused on building the farm system and player development, which is how you become the next Atlanta, but they just canned his ass.
Not really aimed at you per se, just using your post as a jumping off point. In general, I have seen a MASSIVE conflation of "calling out stupid EEI takes" with "being a Bloom fan". These are not remotely the same thing. Just wanted to throw that out there.Personally, I would have let him have another year. But I also think that he’s nowhere near as good as a lot of the people on this board
Here's a when and how the Braves acquired these playersI think fans think like this to get rid of Bloom because we see teams like Atlanta who have really good young players get paid under market value, while we watch big market Boston digging through the bargain pile (especially for pitchers).
This is all well and good, but my biggest gripe with Bloom was the moves he didn't make (and Mookie). There were several instances where he would dip his toe in the water and execute 12% of a plan. If you're too gun shy that's also a problem.OK, let's run through this
- Devers
- Great player...extended under the Bloom FO
- Betts
- Great player...who ownership mandated a trade for and while the return wasn't ideal, two of the better 2023 Red Sox were in that trade
- Bogaerts
- Great player...who got an obscene contract from SD no sane team matches
- Sale
- An absolute albatross of a contract who constricted the team for the entirety of the Bloom FO
- Eovaldi
- A great Dombrowski trade and someone who provide real value for Boston and left in FA...because he assumed he'd get paid better than Boston offered and didn't.
- Eduardo Rodriguez
- A very effective player who left in FA for a deal he absolutely didn't earn on in 2022 and has been better in 2023. I don't think any Sox fan wanted to give him what the Tigers did
- Benintendi
- A good player who has lost any semblance of power hitting he had who signed a deal no Red Sox fan would want him to sign
- Vazquez
- A good player who is a replacement level guy since he left who the Sox got a couple good prospects for (earning 10M in Minnesota)
It was an 84 win team with horrendous contracts, no farm to back it up, and an ownership mandate to cut costs. He's leaving it an 84 win team with far fewer terrible contracts (the one he was stuck with and arguably Story), a much better farm system, in a position to acquire and compete.
And he was here for three season and a COVID trunacted fourth year, pipelines don't often deliver til later than that and the pipeline looks good now.
OK, let's not talk Mookie, that's been beaten to death several times here.This is all well and good, but my biggest gripe with Bloom was the moves he didn't make (and Mookie). There were several instances where he would dip his toe in the water and execute 12% of a plan. If you're too gun shy that's also a problem.
The problem is that we can’t be a Houston or Baltimore and tank for the best players for years. But whoever comes in has to walk the line between development and putting a championship team on the MLB field.Unless it’s Theo coming back, I absolutely hate this move. I’ll always be greatful for FSG giving us what they have, but this ownership group is really souring with me.
Speaking of firing’s, show this entire coaching staff the door as well. Dumbest team in the league by far on the field. As for Cora, I was done with him after last season.
Wouldn’t be shocked if the farm is gutted by next season and I don’t think they have any “plan” or know what then hell they’re doing.
It's a little like how every deadline or offseason the overvaluation of prospects results in people hating many trades/ideas. Now, I get the theory there--and I wanted Dombrowski gone too because you can go WAY too far with dumping prospects. But you can also go too far the other way, viewing theoretical system depth and flexibility as the goal. They are not---they are an enabler of the goal, which is winning. Eventually, you really do have to do that part.I’m shocked people are so disappointed to see Bloom go. We’re in last place. Just like last year, when we finished under .500. Just like two years before that.
It’s truly nice we’ve transitioned into being a patient and optimistic fan base and I get the excitement that prospects bring - it’s always more pleasant to daydream on the possible stars/dynasties of tomorrow than face the lackluster squad of today - but prospects aren’t sure things and the ones helping the team today weren’t Bloom’s picks.
This isn’t a team competing while restocking the farm system. It’s a cellar dwelling team that has rebuilt the farm system, because that’s what cellar dwelling teams do. I don’t think it took a special mind to draft Mayer and Teel with top 5 and top 15 picks.
Honest question - how long did it take Theo and then DD to win when they were brought in?
let’s not forget what the Shaughnessy types are screeching for going over the cap. Look at the benefits of playing the CBA correctly with regards to the IFA.Here's a when and how the Braves acquired these players
Sean Murphy: Three way trade in 2022 giving up notable prospects
Matt Olson: Trade in 2022 giving up multiple notable prospects
Ozzie Albies - IFA in 2013 (5 years from signing to debut)
Austin Riley - 1st round draft pick in 2015
Michael Harris II - 3rd round pick in 2019
Ronald Acuna Jr - IFA in 2014
Vaughn Grissom -11th round pick in 2019
Spencer Strider - 4th round pick in 2020
Bryce Elder - 5th round pick in 2020
Max Fried - 1st round pick in 2012 acquired via trade in 2014 of Justin Upton
Outside of Strider and Elder, all of these players were acquired by the Braves before Bloom became their GM (in some cases before Dave Dombrowski was their GM) or were acquired using resources far beyond what Bloom really had to work with. If people want to can Bloom for not hitting on this 4th and 5th round picks in 2020 ok whatever, no other team or GM did either.
This isn't meant to be at you at all but this is my issue with cutting loose on Bloom after four years, you don't get Atlanta results without long term fruits from the farm system., and from 204-2017, the Braves were a BAD baseball team, like...we're mad about Bloom, this team is better than any team Atlanta put out there when they were getting Acuna, Riley, Fried, as Albies developed, as they acquire and develop Pache (Olson), Muller, and Tarnok (Murphy). The Braves deserve an insane amount of credit for their scouting, talent recognition and development, and choice of trade subject but they also had to be a bad baseball team for several years to get there.
Why not? That's an ownership decision _not_ to do that, but there isn't any reason they can't.The problem is that we can’t be a Houston or Baltimore and tank for the best players for years.
Ownership can do what they want, but the fans would stay away in droves, which affects the bottom line.Why not? That's an ownership decision _not_ to do that, but there isn't any reason they can't.
I suspect it's the combination of 1) the decision to go for it or punt combined with 2) the lack of adding if the decision (whether ownership or Bloom) was to go for it 3) the disconnect between those and 4) the total collapse soon after.
Basically I think that's what they've been doing. Since their last championship (2018), they've gone:This is my opinion. I don't want to have a cycle of winning and bottoming out. I want a cycle of winning and mediocre-ing out. If they bring in another Dombrowski type, I'm going to be annoyed.
It's also very important that they have someone in place ASAP as this is a pretty damn important off season.
Theo took two years coming into a 93 win team with multiple stars the team paid to keep as well as a generational pitcher and another ace caliber guy. Epstein made several good moves to add a handful of wins to those teams (spending money and resources to do it of course) and get into a championship position. DD won it all in his third full season (can't count 2015) from a 78 win team where a slew of homegrown talent was emerging or in their playing primes (Xander, Betts, Pedroia, Ortiz, E-Rod, JBJ) with more in the tank with a very deep farm system and ownership ready to spend. It culminated in an insanely dominant 2018 team.I’m shocked people are so disappointed to see Bloom go. We’re in last place. Just like last year, when we finished under .500. Just like two years before that.
It’s truly nice we’ve transitioned into being a patient and optimistic fan base and I get the excitement that prospects bring - it’s always more pleasant to daydream on the possible stars/dynasties of tomorrow than face the lackluster squad of today - but prospects aren’t sure things and the ones helping the team today weren’t Bloom’s picks.
This isn’t a team competing while restocking the farm system. It’s a cellar dwelling team that has rebuilt the farm system, because that’s what cellar dwelling teams do. I don’t think it took a special mind to draft Mayer and Teel with top 5 and top 15 picks.
Honest question - how long did it take Theo and then DD to win when they were brought in?
Remember when you were in your 20s and there was that old guy who just wouldn't shut up about Fisk?OK, let's not talk Mookie, that's been beaten to death several times here.
You didn’t ask me, but I’ll give my answer: honestly and realistically evaluating what last years team was at the deadline, and selling off/getting under the LT accordingly. Rather than the pointless lateral moves. A badly missed opportunity that loomed over this past offseason. Can criticize certain individual moves, but that was a bad mark on his tenure. And maybe undermined confidence in his ability to work all the levers of the job.OK, let's not talk Mookie, that's been beaten to death several times here.
What WAS the move that he would have made that would have made you happy?
OK, let's not talk Mookie, that's been beaten to death several times here.
What WAS the move that he would have made that would have made you happy?
Who knows what was said internally at the deadline, but If Bloom said, "here's how I want to play it," I can definitely see ownership saying, "we dont interfere in ops decisions, but if you're wrong you're gone." I'm actually OK with that.I suspect it's the combination of 1) the decision to go for it or punt combined with 2) the lack of adding if the decision (whether ownership or Bloom) was to go for it 3) the disconnect between those and 4) the total collapse soon after.
But I also think the collapse was only the final straw because there was a lot of frustration built up - the next reactionary move John Henry makes with this franchise will be the first in 20 years, so safe to assume they were already concerned about things prior to this year's deadline or the 35ish games since.
That's basically how all the teams did it. Atlanta. Houston. Seattle. Philadelphia. Baltimore. Toronto. Tampa Bay. Lots of terrible baseball teams that provided the building blocks for their current success. The Yankees and Dodgers seem to be the only exceptions, and even those teams had very meh years in there.Here's a when and how the Braves acquired these players
Sean Murphy: Three way trade in 2022 giving up notable prospects
Matt Olson: Trade in 2022 giving up multiple notable prospects
Ozzie Albies - IFA in 2013 (5 years from signing to debut)
Austin Riley - 1st round draft pick in 2015
Michael Harris II - 3rd round pick in 2019
Ronald Acuna Jr - IFA in 2014
Vaughn Grissom -11th round pick in 2019
Spencer Strider - 4th round pick in 2020
Bryce Elder - 5th round pick in 2020
Max Fried - 1st round pick in 2012 acquired via trade in 2014 of Justin Upton
Outside of Strider and Elder, all of these players were acquired by the Braves before Bloom became their GM (in some cases before Dave Dombrowski was their GM) or were acquired using resources far beyond what Bloom really had to work with. If people want to can Bloom for not hitting on this 4th and 5th round picks in 2020 ok whatever, no other team or GM did either.
This isn't meant to be at you at all but this is my issue with cutting loose on Bloom after four years, you don't get Atlanta results without long term fruits from the farm system., and from 204-2017, the Braves were a BAD baseball team, like...we're mad about Bloom, this team is better than any team Atlanta put out there when they were getting Acuna, Riley, Fried, as Albies developed, as they acquire and develop Pache (Olson), Muller, and Tarnok (Murphy). The Braves deserve an insane amount of credit for their scouting, talent recognition and development, and choice of trade subject but they also had to be a bad baseball team for several years to get there.
But, didnt the Braves Coppollela to Anthopolous after the 2017 season? Which brings me back to my first post in this thread, that even as a Bloom guy - if the FO ultimately dont trust Bloom to take what he's done with the entire org and translate it to wins in Boston I get the move. With the caveat that....Here's a when and how the Braves acquired these players
Sean Murphy: Three way trade in 2022 giving up notable prospects
Matt Olson: Trade in 2022 giving up multiple notable prospects
Ozzie Albies - IFA in 2013 (5 years from signing to debut)
Austin Riley - 1st round draft pick in 2015
Michael Harris II - 3rd round pick in 2019
Ronald Acuna Jr - IFA in 2014
Vaughn Grissom -11th round pick in 2019
Spencer Strider - 4th round pick in 2020
Bryce Elder - 5th round pick in 2020
Max Fried - 1st round pick in 2012 acquired via trade in 2014 of Justin Upton
Outside of Strider and Elder, all of these players were acquired by the Braves before Bloom became their GM (in some cases before Dave Dombrowski was their GM) or were acquired using resources far beyond what Bloom really had to work with. If people want to can Bloom for not hitting on this 4th and 5th round picks in 2020 ok whatever, no other team or GM did either.
This isn't meant to be at you at all but this is my issue with cutting loose on Bloom after four years, you don't get Atlanta results without long term fruits from the farm system., and from 204-2017, the Braves were a BAD baseball team, like...we're mad about Bloom, this team is better than any team Atlanta put out there when they were getting Acuna, Riley, Fried, as Albies developed, as they acquire and develop Pache (Olson), Muller, and Tarnok (Murphy). The Braves deserve an insane amount of credit for their scouting, talent recognition and development, and choice of trade subject but they also had to be a bad baseball team for several years to get there.
The next hire doesnt do what Shaugnessy wants.let’s not forget what the Shaughnessy types are screeching for going over the cap. Look at the benefits of playing the CBA correctly with regards to the IFA.