I love this. I can't wait until they miss out on the playoffs by 1 game again. But it's okay. Season long consistency is more important than putting the team in a better position to actually win games. Bow before the almighty save. It's just one game. One game never matters that much, right? Right?I'm sure it's not as black and white as that in Farrell's mind. He knew Kimbrel would have come in without complaint. He just chose season long consistency over a pretty small change in expected outcome for one game. If he did this in game 7 of the World Series, I'd be pissed. But on June 12?
I think it would be helpful if you could quote the post you're referring to so we can know which goalpost it is you'd like to move.If you're willing to go more than 1 inning with your closer like Maddon was in that situation then yes, changes the equation dramatically.
Barnes has allowed 44 baserunners in 29 2/3 innings - that's not pretty decent, it's pretty awful. He's wild and gives up a ton of hard contact (24.4 LD%, 39.8 hard-hit%) without having an extraordinary strikeout rate for a reliever. The Twins have a below average offense but it's not baseball's worst and having Matt Barnes face Joe Mauer is unquestionably a negative equity proposition. That's a situation you want to stay away from in a tie game in extra innings when your relief ace is as rested as he can possibly be.On Friday Barnes inherited Mauer on base. Yes, there was an out in that case, but that inning and the next he had no problems with. I really don't think it's too much to ask of a guy who's really been a pretty decent reliever to put up a scoreless inning or two against baseball's worst offense; he just didn't this time. Again, I'd rather have Kimbrel available to pitch to the two guys who could reasonably be considered dangerous than to pass them off to Layne or a second inning of Barnes, so I have to disagree with your assessment.
On May 18th, the Cubs were at Milwaukee tied 1-1. Maddon brought in the closer to face the top of the lineup in the 11th. Rondon got them 1-2-3. Cubs didn't score in the 12th. Rondon left in to get another 1-2-3 inning. Cubs score one in the 13th, Travis Wood, Neil Ramirez, and Clayton Richard close it out in the bottom of the 13th. Cubs win.
Maybe if we got to the 11th Kimbrel would have seen action. Pedro Strop pitched the 9th and 10th in that May 18th game. Pedro Strop and Fernando Rodney combined to pick up the 9th and 10th in that Sept 16th game. So it seems like Joey Baseball held off on going to his closer in both those situations.On September 16, 2015, the Cubs were in Pittsburgh tied 2-2. Maddon brings in Rondon in the 11th to face the 8-9-1 hitters. He gets them 1-2-3. Cubs score 1 in the top of the 12th, Rondon stays in for the bottom of the inning. Cubs win.
If they have a computer model that says they would score more runs by hitting David Ortiz leadoff, should they do it? Should they have benched him 100% vs LHP those years he was struggling against them?I love this. I can't wait until they miss out on the playoffs by 1 game again. But it's okay. Season long consistency is more important than putting the team in a better position to actually win games. Bow before the almighty save. It's just one game. One game never matters that much, right? Right?
Maybe! I count at least six times since the beginning of 2015 when Farrell could have brought in his closer to a tie game on the road and he's never done it, but anything's possible!Maybe if we got to the 11th Kimbrel would have seen action. Pedro Strop pitched the 9th and 10th in that May 18th game. Pedro Strop and Fernando Rodney combined to pick up the 9th and 10th in that Sept 16th game. So it seems like Joey Baseball held off on going to his closer in both those situations.
Obviously every game matters, but 162 games is a long, long time. You can't just manage for that one game. You just can't. If you could, you'd never sit your best players. You'd always pitch your best guys and you'd always play your best players and your team would wear down. Yes, I get that wearing down wasn't an issue with Kimbrel yesterday. I'm just speaking as a general principle.I love this. I can't wait until they miss out on the playoffs by 1 game again. But it's okay. Season long consistency is more important than putting the team in a better position to actually win games. Bow before the almighty save. It's just one game. One game never matters that much, right? Right?
Oh don't back down now. You really thought you were making a slam dunk point when you consecutively posted those Cubs examples.Maybe! I count at least six times since the beginning of 2015 when Farrell could have brought in his closer to a tie game on the road and he's never done it, but anything's possible!
No one is suggesting never resting players or riding relievers hard. There's just not much of a rationale to having a beyond rested Craig Kimbrel sitting in the bullpen while Matt Barnes blows the game.Obviously every game matters, but 162 games is a long, long time. You can't just manage for that one game. You just can't. If you could, you'd never sit your best players. You'd always pitch your best guys and you'd always play your best players and your team would wear down. Yes, I get that wearing down wasn't an issue with Kimbrel yesterday. I'm just speaking as a general principle.
Did you want to share any evidence that Farrell is inclined to use his closer on the road in a tie game, that other good managers don't do it, or that it's a bad idea?Oh don't back down now. You really thought you were making a slam dunk point when you consecutively posted those Cubs examples.
Not true. kieckeredinthehead was kind enough to look through Joe Maddon's game logs and found us at least 2 examples where Maddon held off on going to his best pitcher.No one is suggesting never resting players or riding relievers hard. There's just not much of a rationale to having a beyond rested Craig Kimbrel sitting in the bullpen while Matt Barnes blows the game.
You're being willfully obtuse. kiekered showed examples where Maddon at least eventually went to his closer in a tie game on the road. Can you find us any examples of Farrell doing so? The burden is on you here.Not true. kieckeredinthehead was kind enough to look through Joe Maddon's game logs and found us at least 2 examples where Maddon held off on going to his best pitcher.
If you combine the examples he provided with the fact that Farrell has never done it at any point in any extra inning game over the last 1.5 seasons then I think the point is pretty clear.Oh don't back down now. You really thought you were making a slam dunk point when you consecutively posted those Cubs examples.
Well yeah except Strop is much better than Barnes and for all the flack he gets, Rodney is still better. When you bring in Matt Barnes to face Joe Mauer leading off an inning, there's a decent chance it ends in a run.Not true. kieckeredinthehead was kind enough to look through Joe Maddon's game logs and found us at least 2 examples where Maddon held off on going to his best pitcher.
I don't believe this is entirely true. It may be changing, but the best set-up guys don't usually get the name recognition and the pay that the best closers do, even if they are of equal quality. I mean, until recently, saves factored into determining free agent compensation (as did wins for starters). Guys are going to want the save as long as it exists as a stat.The reason why great closers make a lot of money is because they're great pitchers, not because they get a lot of saves. No one is talking about Brad Boxberger being a top tier pitcher just because he saved the most games last year. If Kimbrel came in yesterday and got the win instead of the save it wouldn't have hurt his value.
Sure I agree that the players put value on it. I was really talking about it from the perspective of the FO. But there are two things that we also have to consider:I don't believe this is entirely true. It may be changing, but the best set-up guys don't usually get the name recognition and the pay that the best closers do, even if they are of equal quality. I mean, until recently, saves factored into determining free agent compensation (as did wins for starters). Guys are going to want the save as long as it exists as a stat.
Here you go. Koji pitched the 9th and 10th innings of a tie game on the road in Oakland.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/OAK/OAK201307140.shtml
Thanks for finding those. Farrell did this pretty consistently in 2013 and 2014, bringing Koji in not just to a tied game but in the ninth inning of a tied game. That was good. I wonder why they've gotten away from it.Last year Koji pitched twice in tie games on the road. One was 7/17 @ LAAAAAAAAA where he lost the game. The other was 5/11 @ Oak where he came on with 1 on / 1 out, got out of it, and then the Sox went on to win.
So since there's precedence for Farrell bringing in his closer/relief ace in a tie game on the road, can someone explain why it was a good idea to have Barnes and his .400 OBP to LHH face a guy leading off an inning that's not going to chase his frequent out of zone offerings when Kimbrel has barely pitched the last month?
If he'd lost? I bet it would. If the Red Sox lose any game someone here will try to blame it on Farrell.I'm curious if the reaction would be the same if he'd used Ross instead of Barnes last night?
No, Duensing started the inning by getting Carrera, then Buck brought in2 outs in the inning. O'Day got the first batter, then Duensing struck out the 2nd, before Ubaldo Jimenez was summoned with 2 down and no one on.
That said, it was an egregiously stupid bit of "look at me!" managing from the master of making himself the Show. He went to the mound FOUR times in the same inning. He convened a team meeting just before Jimenez's fourth pitch was blasted over the wall.
One could argue that the save statistic brought about the rigid, defined role of "closer", which would make the manager more hesitant in using his best reliever in the highest leverage possible, instead saving him for when the team has a lead.The Saves statistic didn't have anything to do with Showalter's stupidity last night. No one cares about save stats in the postseason, just winning games.
Buck was waiting for a lead that never came before using Britton, which is dumb. But he wasn't doing that so that Britton could get another save for his stats, he was just being dumb. The stat had nothing to do with it.
O Day didn't pitch in the inning. Carrera Kd then Jiminez came in for Travis. One out when winning run scored. Then Buck decided, needing a double play or K, to let EE face a terrible fly ball righty which is the exact kind of pitcher EE murders.2 outs in the inning. O'Day got the first batter, then Duensing struck out the 2nd, before Ubaldo Jimenez was summoned with 2 down and no one on.
That said, it was an egregiously stupid bit of "look at me!" managing from the master of making himself the Show. He went to the mound FOUR times in the same inning. He convened a team meeting just before Jimenez's fourth pitch was blasted over the wall.
That would be wrong when talking about last night though. In the postseason, good managers have no hesitation about using their closers in non-save situations. Look how Torre used Mariano, for just one example.One could argue that the save statistic brought about the rigid, defined role of "closer", which would make the manager more hesitant in using his best reliever in the highest leverage possible, instead saving him for when the team has a lead.
You don't think having a reliever entrenched as the "closer" plays a part in how the manager utilizes him, even in a postseason game? I'm not arguing that Showalter's decision was justifiable, but how often do you see the team's closer come in a one run game with the bases loaded and one out in the 7th inning in the playoffs, for instance? It's extremely rare, and the underlying reasoning for that, as well as waiting for your team to get a lead before putting your best reliever in, can be attributed, to some degree, to the value placed in the save as a statistic, and the manner in which it shapes those bullpen roles in the first place.That would be wrong when talking about last night though. In the postseason, good managers have no hesitation about using their closers in non-save situations. Look how Torre used Mariano, for just one example.
As posted above, Showalter himself used Britton for multiple innings on the road in Toronto in a non-save situation in the regular season, so he clearly has no problem breaking from the rigidly defined use of his closer, even in the regular season.
His stupidity last night was all on him, it didn't have anything to do with the stat.