This is now: BB and the direction of the Patriots

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NortheasternPJ

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This is my exact thought. If the process is as collaborative as BB said it was this morning, the brain drain of Adams, Scar, Pioli, Weis, and add Caserio is being felt. BB should only stay on if he builds back this infrastructure. He needs to have a plan for the Pats post his retirement.
I think it was Reiss this morning on 98.5 talking about the staff. It's not just brain drain but they also have one of the smallest coaching staffs in the league. If they brought in a new GM / Coach, they'd have to really look into expanding the coaching staff, analytics (we've beat this to death already) and others. Part of the issue with Brain Drain is also if you have a smaller staff, it's harder to backfill people leaving, which certainly hasn't helped.
 

BaseballJones

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I'd bet that BB objects to the word analytics not the practice. He's been "scouting tendencies" since he was in diapers and now someone wants to call that "analytics". I have no doubt that he knows how often a coach blitzes on third and short in the red zone and that goes into his decision making.
Yes but he might not know - or care - about whether "analytics" says that this particular fourth down is worth going for. I'd bet in those situations he just goes with his gut because he's got the most experience of anyone in the NFL to go off of.
 
Oct 12, 2023
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Or just, you know, taking a ton of actual skill position players, and hoping you hit on like 50% of them.

But those 4th and 5th rounders are usually better spent on kickers and punters.
the hit rate on 4th/5th round skill players for even the best GM’s is much lower than 50% over any meaningful sample size

and I’d argue a good kicker and punter is more important than the typical 5th round WR or RB. Admittedly, if you hit a home run in the mid/late rounds (Diggs for example), it’s more valuable than any special teams guy. But a bad kicker can sink a competitive team and a good punter can be hugely valuable for getting an edge in field position (see SB46)

for example, going back to the 21 (Rohrwasser) draft since it takes 3 years to evaluate a draft properly. In the 4th and 5th rounds there were 10 cumulative WR. 3 of them have 100+ total catches in 3 seasons (Gabe Davis, Darnell Mooney, KJ Osborn), 5 were out of football this year, and 2 are fringe players (Tyler Johnson, Collin Johnson, both on their 3rd teams in 3 seasons). 5 RB’s were taken, 4 still on various rosters but the best of the bunch is Joshua Kelley who has amassed a total of 1100 yards in 3 years. The other 4 have combined for about 1000 yards (Deejay Dallas, Anthony McFarland, Jason Huntley, LaMical Perine).

Yes, if you never take a swing at a skill position late, you’re never going to find a potential Diggs (or Givens, Edelman etc). But there’s so few kickers and punters in the league available and the vast majority of rookie free agents are not even rosterable players that taking one in the draft makes sense

and Belichick is hardly alone in drafting specialists. The 49ers drafted Wisnowsky in the 4th and Moody 99th overall and the general consensus is that their front office is among the league’s best.
 

8slim

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Simply put, if you’re going to use a mid-round pick on a kicker/punter you best pick a guy who can contribute while on his rookie deal. That was Jake Bailey.

Unfortunately, it’s looking like the past 2 K’s Bill has drafted are busts. That’s a bad use of resources.

I know we like to debate theoretical points here, and it’s fun. But sometimes you gotta judge the results. And in this case, the recent results aren’t good.
 

ManicCompression

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I know we like to debate theoretical points here, and it’s fun. But sometimes you gotta judge the results. And in this case, the recent results aren’t good.
It's also unreasonable to compare them with SF, a team with very few holes on the roster because of how successfully they've built themselves in the draft, when the Patriots have so many holes due to poor drafting in recent years.
 

Deathofthebambino

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the hit rate on 4th/5th round skill players for even the best GM’s is much lower than 50% over any meaningful sample size

and I’d argue a good kicker and punter is more important than the typical 5th round WR or RB. Admittedly, if you hit a home run in the mid/late rounds (Diggs for example), it’s more valuable than any special teams guy. But a bad kicker can sink a competitive team and a good punter can be hugely valuable for getting an edge in field position (see SB46)

for example, going back to the 21 (Rohrwasser) draft since it takes 3 years to evaluate a draft properly. In the 4th and 5th rounds there were 10 cumulative WR. 3 of them have 100+ total catches in 3 seasons (Gabe Davis, Darnell Mooney, KJ Osborn), 5 were out of football this year, and 2 are fringe players (Tyler Johnson, Collin Johnson, both on their 3rd teams in 3 seasons). 5 RB’s were taken, 4 still on various rosters but the best of the bunch is Joshua Kelley who has amassed a total of 1100 yards in 3 years. The other 4 have combined for about 1000 yards (Deejay Dallas, Anthony McFarland, Jason Huntley, LaMical Perine).

Yes, if you never take a swing at a skill position late, you’re never going to find a potential Diggs (or Givens, Edelman etc). But there’s so few kickers and punters in the league available and the vast majority of rookie free agents are not even rosterable players that taking one in the draft makes sense

and Belichick is hardly alone in drafting specialists. The 49ers drafted Wisnowsky in the 4th and Moody 99th overall and the general consensus is that their front office is among the league’s best.
Of course, it's lower than 50%, but I wasn't just talking about the 4th and 5th rounds in that sentence. The Green Bay Packers have taken 6 wide receivers and 2 tight ends in the last two drafts, to build around their young qb.

Are you only looking at the 2021 draft for some reason? Because of the "3 year rule" you decided?

Given the way you cut off your numbers, you don't count Wicks as a hit yet (39 catches, 581 yards, 4tds this year as a rookie 5th rouder), I don't need 3 years to conclude that Puka Nakua (105 caches and 1,400+ yards, 5th rounder) is good, Pop Douglas doesn't have 100 catches yet, so he doesn't count...Cade Otton, a TE, 4th rounder has 89 catches in 2 seasons and 8tds, Jake Ferguson is already over 90 catches, Dobbs (another one in Green Bay) is over 100 catches in 2 seasons, Isaiah Likely and Okonkwu are turning into legit playmakers at tight end, Shakier is the #2/3 option for the team with the #2 seed in the AFC, Tyler Allgeier has over 2,000 yards from scrimmage, without Jerome Ford filling in for Chubb, Cleveland may not be in the playoffs this year, same for Kyren Williams in LA, Isaiah Pacheco was a 7th rounder...All of those guys were taken starting in the 4th round in the 2022 and 2023 drafts. And that doesn't even include guys like Bo Melton who were let go of their original teams are now starting to find success elsewhere.

The idea that there are nothing but fringe guys and busts after the third round so we should go ahead and draft punters and kickers (when we had a fairly decent kicker that we let walk anyway) while having an absolute shitshow of talent on offense, a young QB and a lack of depth on the line is just crazy to me. You miss on 100% of the shots you don't take, and the Pats haven't taken enough shots, and the shots they have taken have been terrible. I don't know how else to say that.
 

DJnVa

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Unfortunately, it’s looking like the past 2 K’s Bill has drafted are busts. That’s a bad use of resources.
Yeah, it's thing to grab a dude in the middle rounds to fill out a spot on a good team that needs a kicker.

It's another to spend a 4th and a 5th in 2 drafts over 3 seasons when you have so many needs and then have them flame out.
 

lexrageorge

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Of all things to blame Bill for, drafting a kicker and punter is a rounding error. Most 6th round picks are total crapshoots, and the Pats had 5 picks in the 6th and 7th round this past draft. They needed a punter, and Baringer has been fine, and Bailey needed to be replaced. Bill also had 4 picks in rounds 4 and 5, so again, why not use one of them on a kicker.

In hindsight, he should have stuck with Folk. Of course, then their draft position is likely a few slots down. Drafting Harry and Thornton were far worse mistakes.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Well, they only needed a punter because of the weird shit that went down with Bailey, who basically had the same season as Baringer. Keeping the guys they had and using those picks elsewhere probably would have been a better use of resources.
 

DJnVa

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In hindsight, he should have stuck with Folk. Of course, then their draft position is likely a few slots down. Drafting Harry and Thornton were far worse mistakes.
Saying drafting 2 kickers in the 4th and 5th round is a mistake =/= drafting Harry and Thornton weren't far worse.
 

Super Nomario

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They did this year what they should have done a bunch and failed to do: double-dipped on WR late. Douglas looks like a keeper. Boutte doesn't, but who knows. They didn't draft any WR in 2020 or 2017, and in 2018 (Braxton Berrios) and 2021 (Tre Nixon) they only drafted late dudes who never played for them. That magnifies the impact of missing on Harry and Thornton; they haven't been taking enough shots to make up for the misses.
 
Oct 12, 2023
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Well, they only needed a punter because of the weird shit that went down with Bailey, who basically had the same season as Baringer. Keeping the guys they had and using those picks elsewhere probably would have been a better use of resources.
Baringer was cheaper, did a solid job, didn’t have whatever the injury/rehab issue/disagreement was and can actually handle kickoffs (which Bailey had 8 of this year)

a competent dirt cheap punter who looks like he is good enough to stick for a few years seems like a pretty good use of a pick.

Going for a young kicker over the expensive, old and kickoff challenged Folk seemed like a reasonable thought. Didn’t work out but whatever.

I’m assuming all the people complaining about Ryland and Baringer have even larger complaints about taking a gunner with literally no positionin the 5th round (Slater).

sometimes the special teams guys pan out. Bailey was worth his pick, as was IMO Cardona, Ebner, Gostkowski, Slater. Rohrwasser, Ryland (probably), Jake Ingram, Malcolm Williams, Matt Wells didn’t. Mesko was borderline

people only really seem to complain about specialist picks that flop. A 5th round DT who washes out quickly barely gets noticed. A 5th round kicker who flops? Massive waste of a pick apparently.
 

Ed Hillel

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Why? Coach picks his staff not GM
Because of this:
Belichick will need to lay out a firm plan to dramatically improve the on-field product after the Patriots’ worst record (4-13) of Kraft’s ownership. Part of that plan may include a reunion with former Patriots offensive coordinator Josh McDaniels, who is considered a candidate to return, sources close to the situation said.
That first part is really mostly a question for a GM.
 

DJnVa

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I’m assuming all the people complaining about Ryland and Baringer have even larger complaints about taking a gunner with literally no positionin the 5th round (Slater).
Your argument against drafting 2 PKs in 3 years is that we shouldn't complain because we drafted Slater 20 years ago?


people only really seem to complain about specialist picks that flop. A 5th round DT who washes out quickly barely gets noticed. A 5th round kicker who flops? Massive waste of a pick apparently.
Come on dude. If you think this board only complains about specialists that flop I don't think you scroll down the post list far at all.
 

Justthetippett

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Aug 9, 2015
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It seems there's at least some evidence that this worm might be starting to turn. Anecdotally, offenses across the leagues looked pretty bad this year. (The number two and number six offenses by points scored grinded out a 21-14 game in great weather with tons on the line in a sloppy, turnover filled game just last night)

Statistically, 2.38 ALLTD is the lowest number since 2006. 1.39 RecTD is a tick higher than 2022 but much lower than 2010 - 2021. 218 passing yards per game is similar to last year but again down over the last decade. 4.1 TD% on passes is the lowest since '06. 10.9 YPC (tied with 2022) is actually the lowest in NFL history (unless my eyes are lying). 331 yards per game is the lowest since '08.

Looks like ol' Rog and the boys are going to have to go back to the lab and start handicapping the defenses through some rule changes because it looks like the defenses have caught up.

I thought this was an informative watch:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgbN4iCA6us
The fix for this is more practice time, which will likely lead to better Oline play and more precise offensive execution. The overall QB play is pretty awful right now.
If they really want to get our attention, they should leak about Brady’s potential return! I kid, I kid….
Brady only comes back to mentor his protege, JJ McCarthy.
 

astrozombie

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Sep 12, 2022
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Feels a bit disrespectful to BoB to dump him for McDaniels. I doubt he could have done a significantly better job as OC this year.
I agree, but also... this offense was an epic disaster. No one felt bad kicking MP and JJ to the curb after last year. BoB was brought in to help bring this offense to passable, preferably by developing Mac. He failed at both of those things and seems to have largely gotten a pass for reasons I don't really understand.
 

ZMart100

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I don't think this is about BoB being dumped. McD would probably get the senior football advisor title.
 

E5 Yaz

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Josh, of course, was able to get a serviceable year out of Mac. Bringing him back in the fold might mean seeing if he can fix him
 

Cellar-Door

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Josh, of course, was able to get a serviceable year out of Mac. Bringing him back in the fold might mean seeing if he can fix him
Or be a case of "Josh has a lot of success with young QB development, he helped us get Mac to the playoffs, imagine what he can do with (Maye/Williams/Daniels)
 

Hoya81

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I agree, but also... this offense was an epic disaster. No one felt bad kicking MP and JJ to the curb after last year. BoB was brought in to help bring this offense to passable, preferably by developing Mac. He failed at both of those things and seems to have largely gotten a pass for reasons I don't really understand.
If the reports from the last couple of days that he wasn’t allowed to bring in a new offensive staff are true, I don’t think he was given a fair shake.
 

soxhop411

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Uh. You guys missed a very important part of that story
The Patriots coach is meeting with owner Robert Kraft this week to discuss the direction of the franchise and whether Belichick will continue to be part of it. Kraft and Belichick had an initial discussion Monday, and the expectation is they’ll meet at least once more, league sources said. Kraft was not expected to reach a decision Monday.

Belichick will need to lay out a firm plan to dramatically improve the on-field product after the Patriots’ worst record (4-13) of Kraft’s ownership. Part of that plan may include a reunion with former Patriots offensive coordinator Josh McDaniels, who is considered a candidate to return, sources close to the situation said.

McDaniels, who has worked with Belichick for two stints spanning parts of 19 seasons, was fired as head coach of the Raiders in October. McDaniels and Belichick have remained close, and McDaniels has long been one of Kraft’s favorite members of the organization.
https://theathletic.com/5188951/2024/01/08/patriots-josh-mcdaniels-bill-belichick/
BB and Kraft have already met today. And will meet later this week
 

Mystic Merlin

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Is that just a feeling or have particular roles been reported?



I missed it, but mostly because no one gave a couple of the key quotes. Please summarize a bit, folks!
Sorry, I forgot about the paywall.

The article doesn’t mention anything about roles or BOB’s status, to answer your first question.
 

CR67dream

blue devils forevah!
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Sorry, I forgot about the paywall.

The article doesn’t mention anything about roles or BOB’s status, to answer your first question.
No sweat. :) Thanks for the info.

Wasn't Josh officially the OC/Assistant Head Coach last time around, or am I having a fever dream? I'm intrigued with how it would be structured with him back this time.
 

DJnVa

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The pushback is that there’s more to consider than results when evaluating the quality of a decision made in the face of uncertainty.
Yeah. One of the other things to consider is that many/most teams get PKs and don't use draft picks on them.
 
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