That Jets video...omg. I can only imagine what the Gang Green game thread was like during that entire sequence. Because that's just incredible that that could have happened with a professional football team.
That Jets video...omg. I can only imagine what the Gang Green game thread was like during that entire sequence. Because that's just incredible that that could have happened with a professional football team.
I think the home plate ump has to make the call right away, because a play happened there. If that runner was out, inning would have been over. And since he was safe, he indicated so, but it would have been negated had they got Baez out at first on the force stillThe home plate ump was incorrect too - he signaled safe but the runner wasn't safe as the hitter outcome was pending.
Yes, ump made the correct call.I think the home plate ump has to make the call right away, because a play happened there. If that runner was out, inning would have been over. And since he was safe, he indicated so, but it would have been negated had they got Baez out at first on the force still
My thought was ... shouldn't he wait until the deciding runner is safe/out? If there were less than two ours, I agree but with two outs that runner can stand on the plate all day long and it's irrelevant if the hitter crawls to first base only to get tagged an inch from the bag.I think the home plate ump has to make the call right away, because a play happened there. If that runner was out, inning would have been over. And since he was safe, he indicated so, but it would have been negated had they got Baez out at first on the force still
it didn't... that's just incredible that that could have happened with a professional football team.
I give full Kudos to Baez for trying to make something happen, then taking advantage of it when it did, instead of just letting Craig chase him and tag him out.Well, I mean, what else is he gonna do? He grounded into an out. Dancing around on the line and somehow luring the other team into a historic boondoggle is your only chance of salvaging the run. It's still incredibly low odds but it's slightly better than just running to first and taking the out, and it happened to work out for him.
(But, yeah, I don't think he was thinking that).
I am just curious, was the batter awarded a hit and RBI on that play?Keith Law: I mean, I love Baez, and that’s heads-up running by him, but what in the actual fuck was Will Craig thinking? Was this his first day playing baseball? STEP ON FIRST BASE.
When I checked play by play on the day of (scoring has maybe changed since), the hitter was safe on second on an throwing error by the catcher. No scorebook punishment for Craig - though he did commit a fielding error later in the game.I am just curious, was the batter awarded a hit and RBI on that play?
If that's not a fielding error, I'm not sure what would be.When I checked play by play on the day of (scoring has maybe changed since), the hitter was safe on second on an throwing error by the catcher. No scorebook punishment for Craig - though he did commit a fielding error later in the game.
Yes, I think this is actually correct.I expected it to be a Fielder’s Choice and then a throwing error by the catcher down to first base
https://www.mlb.com/news/will-craig-reflects-on-fielding-miscue“Oh yeah. Yeah, as soon as I released the ball, I was like, 'Oh my gosh, what am I doing?' Like, I know better than that,” Craig said Friday. “That’s like simple baseball 101, but I guess in my mind when I saw [Javier Báez] kind of running back ... just kind of lost my mind for a second. Just kind of saw [catcher] Michael Perez looking at me and kind of just released the ball, and the rest is history, basically.”
No. You make the call as it happens, and then take runs off the board as necessary. For example, if with 2 outs and a runner on 1st, the batter hits a double and there's a close play at the plate, the umpire has to call the runner safe or out. If he's safe, but the batter missed 1st base and the defense appeals, then you call the batter-runner out for missing 1st base, and take the run off the board.My thought was ... shouldn't he wait until the deciding runner is safe/out? If there were less than two ours, I agree but with two outs that runner can stand on the plate all day long and it's irrelevant if the hitter crawls to first base only to get tagged an inch from the bag.
But I see your point here. Just a very odd play all around.
I mean, I get that it was a huge mistake that should have never been made, but I'm a big proponent of admitting your mistakes, moving on, learning from them and getting better, so I think this was about as good a statement of self-reflection as you probably could have had in this case. Hope for his sake this isn't career defining.
I don't mean to mock him all that harshly. As you say, he did take responsibility for it and that's the right thing to do. I hope he just moves on, as he said. He's having a tough year so far.I mean, I get that it was a huge mistake that should have never been made, but I'm a big proponent of admitting your mistakes, moving on, learning from them and getting better, so I think this was about as good a statement of self-reflection as you probably could have had in this case. Hope for his sake this isn't career defining.
Tag him and he's out, inning over.What would the call be if he kept running Baez back to HP? It's not like a base; he can't just stand there and be safe.
You don't need to tag him. He is out if he retreats all the way back to home base.Tag him and he's out, inning over.
This happens about once or twice a year. I actually can't believe it happened in the playoffs last season, and Adam Duvall ended up making an out AFTER he had 4 balls delivered to him. https://retrosheet.org/PitchCountMistakes.htmThe insane part isn't that an umpire made a mistake, it's that all those people with a heavy incentive to not let him walk (the pitcher, the catcher, manager, etc.) didn't notice.
When this happens in little league half of the parents of the defensive team are screaming before the kid gets to first base.
I think the umps give the count during the at bat. Some do it on every pitch and some do it only on 3-2 or when they get balls or there is a delay and the batter returns to the box (like a long foul ball). The way I think this would happen is if the ump called "1-1" after the third pitch instead of "2-1" and nobody noticed. The mistake would keep getting repeated and the batter if he didn't notice that it was really 2-1 and not 1-1 would then have that as his normal.This happens about once or twice a year. I actually can't believe it happened in the playoffs last season, and Adam Duvall ended up making an out AFTER he had 4 balls delivered to him. https://retrosheet.org/PitchCountMistakes.htm
edit: found a video of the sequence here View: https://twitter.com/UmpireAuditor/status/1313985486470344705
I get an umpire making a mistake, but shouldn't a hitter's approach be constantly changing depending on the count? How does he not know it's a 3-2 pitch?
If the guy running scoreboard doesn't make the same mistake, doesn't everyone in the park notice? Or is it the guy running the scoreboard making a mistake that sets off the chain of events in the first place?I think the umps give the count during the at bat. Some do it on every pitch and some do it only on 3-2 or when they get balls or there is a delay and the batter returns to the box (like a long foul ball). The way I think this would happen is if the ump called "1-1" after the third pitch instead of "2-1" and nobody noticed. The mistake would keep getting repeated and the batter if he didn't notice that it was really 2-1 and not 1-1 would then have that as his normal.
Gotta be a perfect storm I guess. In the clip above the announcers knew right away so television at least presumably had the right count on the tv score box.If the guy running scoreboard doesn't make the same mistake, doesn't everyone in the park notice? Or is it the guy running the scoreboard making a mistake that sets off the chain of events in the first place?
I mean, it happens and it's not super-duper-rare, so I guess nobody is perfect. Still it seems like there are enough checks and balances where this would never happen. Then again...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Down_Game_(1990)
Tim Kurkijian, often-buried at ESPN because he actually still cares about doing his job, with a deep-dive about the state of base running in the majors. Really worth reading.Hayes, the Pirates' best player, hit an oppo HR right at the pole. While running hard when it wasn't certain to be a HR, he missed 1st base entirely. Dodgers correcty appealed, then It was clear on replay and overturned into an out.
https://www.mlb.com/news/ke-bryan-hayes-out-after-missing-first-base
Very interesting.Tim Kurkijian, often-buried at ESPN because he actually still cares about doing his job, with a deep-dive about the state of base running in the majors. Really worth reading.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/31551774/sorry-had-see-how-baserunning-become-embarrassing-problem-major-league-baseball
Awesome query, thanks! I’ve tried all over to find a prior 2-3-4 double play. I’ve got NOTHING. The remotely closest thing I can find is a 1-2-3-4 *triple* play the Providence Grays hit into against the Boston Beaneaters, in the 6th inning of a game played on August 11th, 1883.
For all the shit umps get sometimes, they were absolutely on top of both of those calls.
I didn't necessarily mean that I agreed with the call; it was borderline IMO. I meant from a process perspective, the ump seemed to make it very clear what he was calling, even if some of the baserunners were confused.Eh, the purpose of the infield fly rule is to prevent the defense from getting a "cheap" double play on the existing baserunners* by letting the ball drop and then retiring the baserunners via force outs. Once the fly ball is more than a few strides into the outfield, it really is unlikely that the defense can let a fly ball drop and still have time to get two force outs. In the example last night, Bogaerts is making it to second before a relay to 3B and a relay to 2B can be executed.
* The batter-runner has their own responsibility to run to first regardless of where the batted ball goes and faces no dilemma about leading off the bag vs. tagging up.
And a big part of the umpire's responsibility in the scenario is to make the call timely, the sooner the better, and he did that. With some of the defensive shifts I could see more non-intuitive infield fly calls where an infielder is stationed in the shallow outfield moving forward.I didn't necessarily mean that I agreed with the call; it was borderline IMO. I meant from a process perspective, the ump seemed to make it very clear what he was calling, even of some of the baserunners were confused.
Right, exactly.And a big part of the umpire's responsibility in the scenario is to make the call timely, the sooner the better, and he did that. With some of the defensive shifts I could see more non-intuitive infield fly calls where an infielder is stationed in the shallow outfield moving forward.
And a big part of the umpire's responsibility in the scenario is to make the call timely, the sooner the better, and he did that. With some of the defensive shifts I could see more non-intuitive infield fly calls where an infielder is stationed in the shallow outfield moving forward.
The way the rule is written (catchable under ordinary effort) basically means that once an infielder settles under the ball, like Correa did, the umpires have to call it.Eh, the purpose of the infield fly rule is to prevent the defense from getting a "cheap" double play on the existing baserunners* by letting the ball drop and then retiring the baserunners via force outs. Once the fly ball is more than a few strides into the outfield, it really is unlikely that the defense can let a fly ball drop and still have time to get two force outs. In the example last night, Bogaerts is making it to second before a relay to 3B and a relay to 2B can be executed.
* The batter-runner has their own responsibility to run to first regardless of where the batted ball goes and faces no dilemma about leading off the bag vs. tagging up.
[Emphasis added]An INFIELD FLY is a fair fly ball (not including a line drive nor an attempted bunt) which can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort, when first and second, or first, second and third bases are occupied, before two are out. The pitcher, catcher and any outfielder who stations himself in the infield on the play shall be considered infielders for the purpose of this rule.
[Emphasis added]When it seems apparent that a batted ball will be an Infield Fly, the umpire shall immediately declare "Infield Fly" for the benefit of the runners. If the ball is near thebaselines, the umpire shall declare "Infield Fly, if Fair."The ball is alive and runners may advance at the risk of the ball being caught, or retouch and advance after the ball is touched, the same as on any fly ball. If the hitbecomes a foul ball, it is treated the same as any foul.If a declared Infield Fly is allowed to fall untouched to the ground, and bounces foul before passing first or third base, it is a foul ball. If a declared Infield Fly falls untouched to the ground outside the baseline, and bounces fair before passing first or third base, it is an Infield Fly.
[Emphasis added]Rule 2.00 (Infield Fly) Comment: On the infield fly rule the umpire is to rule whether the ball could ordinarily have been handled by an infielder - not by some arbitrary limitation such as the [infield] grass [boundary] or the base lines. The umpire must rule also that a ball is an infield fly, even if handled by an outfielder, if, in the umpire's judgment, the ball could have been as easily handled by an infielder. The infield fly is in no sense to be considered an appeal play. The umpire's judgment must govern, and the decision should be made immediately.
When an infield fly rule is called, runners may advance at their own risk. If on an infield fly rule, the infielder intentionally drops a fair ball, the ball remains in play despite the provisions of Rule 6.05(l). The infield fly rule takes precedence.
It's in the rule.don't really need that quick notification from the ump.
A popup to medium depth OF seems like it would be the hardest fly rule call. Given the way the rule is written, I think the umpires' are, at least internally, guided by the infielder's action. Here it was Correia. Tumpane might have been able to call it a second or two earlier, but it appeared as thought he signalled as soon as Correia stopped running away from the infield.Let's review Rule 2.00:
[Emphasis added]
Additionally:
[Emphasis added]
And finally, a comment from within the rule:
[Emphasis added]
With these as guideposts, the umps made the correct call. While Correa moved to a spot at a relatively considerable distance into the outfield, he had to make nothing beyond an ordinary effort to position himself under the ball.
If there is anything I would question, it would be whether the umpire(s) immediately ruled it an infield fly. The 2nd base umpire clearly is making no physical gesture to accompany any audible announcement. Nor is the home plate umpire as far as I can tell.
Although it is interesting, if not perplexing, that the rule can be invoked even if an outfielder makes a play on the ball if, in the umpire's judgment, an infielder could have made the play through ordinary effort. In theory, the depth into the outfield is irrelevant. It's the "ordinary" effort that is the overriding factor.A popup to medium depth OF seems like it would be the hardest fly rule call. Given the way the rule is written, I think the umpires' are, at least internally, guided by the infielder's action. Here it was Correia. Tumpane might have been able to call it a second or two earlier, but it appeared as thought he signalled as soon as Correia stopped running away from the infield.
Apropos of nothing in particular, I wonder whether it's the ordinary effort of generically positioned fielders or of *these* fielders, giving consideration to where they were positioned when the play started?Although it is interesting, if not perplexing, that the rule can be invoked even if an outfielder makes a play on the ball if, in the umpire's judgment, an infielder could have made the play through ordinary effort. In theory, the depth into the outfield is irrelevant. It's the "ordinary" effort that is the overriding factor.
??? At 1:36 I believe we see the 2B ump making the infield fly call after the ball is dropped. The other angles are frustrating as the ump is on the fringe (or just out) of the camera frame, but in terms of what we can see it's not evident that the ump was visibly making the call before the drop. We don't know what he was verbalizing and when.It's pretty clear in the link soxhop posted above that the call was made pretty quickly, go to about 1:36 in the video.
Yes, but but since we are talking about fly balls in the rule, it's a questionable component. Adding in the radical shifts going on, the rule needs updating. Maybe even a new line on the field (arc of danger?) so that the ump can yell "infield fly if fair or within the arc." Perhaps even have the arc drawn deeper into the LF area than the RF area.It's in the rule.