The Game Goat Thread: Wk 12 @ Broncos

Papelbon's Poutine said:

Yes, I'm sure all the people who make money off of attention to the league hated to have an undefeated team and the hype that built. I mean, the league was so upset about the finale in 07 against the Giants - in the midst of Spygate - being one of the highest rated games in the history of the sport that I'm sure they conspired with the ref union that they have such a great recent history with to make sure that didn't happen again.

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Yeah, because rehashing history from 8 years ago is relevant to things that just happened a few hours ago. If you want to make a point, fine, but we all just watched the same game, and yeah, even though Harper screwed up, that's not the singular reason they lost, and you cannot deny that that was a one-sided affair from the zebras (on top of similarly one-sided affairs against the Jets and Giants.)

If we're just going to go with ridiculous hyperbole here, perhaps while you're going all white knight for the league you can find the time and energy to get our two draft picks back. That'd be nice.

Stitch01 said:

Yeah they could have played better and won or just not had like four indefensible calls go against them and won.

Not running the ball in the four minute offense didn't actually cost them much in game. The first pass worked for a first down and Denver scored with lots of time to spare. I was disappointed how poorly they ran tonight but with a gassed defense thought throwing to try and win the game was fine vs running Blount into the line three times

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I have a bigger issue with the play call when they got the ball before half. They looked like they were just trying to run out the clock and get to the locker room. That time was wasted.

Stitch01 said:

Yeah they could have played better and won or just not had like four indefensible calls go against them and won.

Not running the ball in the four minute offense didn't actually cost them much in game. The first pass worked for a first down and Denver scored with lots of time to spare. I was disappointed how poorly they ran tonight but with a gassed defense thought throwing to try and win the game was fine vs running Blount into the line three times

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I agree, with that much time left their options were... score, or run out the clock with a very long drive. Neither of those things were going to happen without throwing the ball. As it was they got 1 first, and probably should have had one on the play where Gronk got hurt.

Stitch01 said:

There's no real maybe about refs deciding the outcome tonight, but yeah, it's way more likely that the refs suck than a real conspiracy outside of Gronk being clearly singled out for OPI calls

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Also not buying Gronk being clearly singled out. Zolak is about as much of a journalist as Jerry Remy.

Well for whatever reason the refs are officiating pass interference calls differently for Gronk than anyone else in the league this year.

Stitch01 said:

Yeah they could have played better and won or just not had like four indefensible calls go against them and won.

Not running the ball in the four minute offense didn't actually cost them much in game. The first pass worked for a first down and Denver scored with lots of time to spare. I was disappointed how poorly they ran tonight but with a gassed defense thought throwing to try and win the game was fine vs running Blount into the line three times

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Denver was down to one timeout. Once Gronk got the 1st down you run the ball to grind the clock down. Passing is extremely risky as you don't want to throw an ncompletion to stop the clock. Instead they threw 3 incompletions and only took a few seconds off the clock.

Adrian's Dome said:

Yeah, because rehashing history from 8 years ago is relevant to things that just happened a few hours ago. If you want to make a point, fine, but we all just watched the same game, and yeah, even though Harper screwed up, that's not the singular reason they lost, and you cannot deny that that was a one-sided affair from the zebras (on top of similarly one-sided affairs against the Jets and Giants.)

If we're just going to go with ridiculous hyperbole here, perhaps while you're going all white knight for the league you can find the time and energy to get our two draft picks back. That'd be nice.

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That's silly.

The calls which the referees made put the Patriots in a worse position than they "should" have been in. Nobody is disputing this.

The point is that claiming the refs deliberately fucked over NE is ridiculous, and every point which was made on that topic stands up just fine.

No they didn't throw three incompletions first of all. Second ok they run three times and Denver gets it with 30 seconds less left. Great, guess the Pats lose in regulation.

Adrian's Dome said:

Yeah, because rehashing history from 8 years ago is relevant to things that just happened a few hours ago. If you want to make a point, fine, but we all just watched the same game, and yeah, even though Harper screwed up, that's not the singular reason they lost, and you cannot deny that that was a one-sided affair from the zebras (on top of similarly one-sided affairs against the Jets and Giants.)

If we're just going to go with ridiculous hyperbole here, perhaps while you're going all white knight for the league you can find the time and energy to get our two draft picks back. That'd be nice.

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This was the only game this year that I thought was tilted to one side against the Pats.

Adrian's Dome said:

Yeah, because rehashing history from 8 years ago is relevant to things that just happened a few hours ago. If you want to make a point, fine, but we all just watched the same game, and yeah, even though Harper screwed up, that's not the singular reason they lost, and you cannot deny that that was a one-sided affair from the zebras (on top of similarly one-sided affairs against the Jets and Giants.)

If we're just going to go with ridiculous hyperbole here, perhaps while you're going all white knight for the league you can find the time and energy to get our two draft picks back. That'd be nice.

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You should learn to read better. I'm not going "all white knight for the league". I'm saying the people claiming the league was behind the refs making bad calls are 1) being crybaby, tinfoil hat conspiracy nuts 2) being unreasonable about the team losing, because not a single call was on level with far more egregious calls that have literally changed the outcomes of games (cough...Seahawks games...cough) and 3) being completely ignorant about the fact that the league and the refs are two separate entities, which do not have a very cordial working relationship, given that they just had a work stoppage over a $10B entity paying their employees as full time.

Explain to me why the f the refs would go along with some kind of anti Pats agenda? Why would they give a shit? And as contracted, union employees why would they give two shits about bowing to the league office?

Stitch01 said:

This was the only game this year that I thought was tilted to one side against the Pats.

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At what point do we start looking at these calls as more than random circumstance? Now? If they get screwed next week? Or do we just chalk it all up to "they didn't play perfect football" every single week and ignore all the other ingame variables?

I don't want to be the conspiracy guy. I hate the conspiracy guy. The thing is, given how the NFL bent this franchise over in a bullshit investigation on a completely nonsensical case during the offseason, maybe, just maybe, I can be convinced they have an axe to grind. Does that make me biased and unreasonable? Perhaps, but so be it.

Hard for anyone to say this was called proper. Refs blew this harder than Peta Jensen.

Adrian's Dome said:

At what point do we start looking at these calls as more than random circumstance? Now? If they get screwed next week? Or do we just chalk it all up to "they didn't play perfect football" every single week and ignore all the other ingame variables?

I don't want to be the conspiracy guy. I hate the conspiracy guy. The thing is, given how the NFL bent this franchise over in a bullshit investigation on a completely nonsensical case during the offseason, maybe, just maybe, I can be convinced they have an axe to grind. Does that make me biased and unreasonable? Perhaps, but so be it.

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THE LEAGUE AND THE REFEREES ARE NOT A SINGLE ENTITY.

Papelbon's Poutine said:

You should learn to read better. I'm not going "all white knight for the league". I'm saying the people claiming the league was behind the refs making bad calls are 1) being crybaby, tinfoil hat conspiracy nuts 2) being unreasonable about the team losing, because not a single call was on level with far more egregious calls that have literally changed the outcomes of games (cough...Seahawks games...cough) and 3) being completely ignorant about the fact that the league and the refs are two separate entities, which do not have a very cordial working relationship, given that they just had a work stoppage over a $10B entity paying their employees as full time.

Explain to me why the f the refs would go along with some kind of anti Pats agenda? Why would they give a shit? And as contracted, union employees why would they give two shits about bowing to the league office?

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I also really hate ref conspiracies, but isn't it a fact that teams have some sort of mechanism by which they write to league asking them to look out for certain things? And then the league may or may not direct the ref crews to pay particular attention to those things? If one of those things is "Gronk pushes off," something about that doesn't seem quite right to me as a point of emphasis.

CaptainLaddie said:

Honest question: do you think this game was called properly

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Honest question : did you watch all 14 games today in comparable intensity and are able to compare the performance of the refs across the board?

Papelbon's Poutine said:

THE LEAGUE AND THE REFEREES ARE NOT A SINGLE ENTITY.

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Well, if this is how we're conducting our arguments...DO YOU THINK THIS GAME WAS CALLED PROPERLY AND DO YOU HONESTLY THINK THE LEAGUE HAS GIVEN THE PATRIOTS A FAIR SHAKE?

WayBackVazquez said:

I also really hate ref conspiracies, but isn't it a fact that teams have some sort of mechanism by which they write to league asking them to look out for certain things? And then the league may or may not direct the ref crews to pay particular attention to those things? If one of those things is "Gronk pushes off," something about that doesn't seem quite right to me as a point of emphasis.

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I agree with that as well, but unless the memo came from the league office and noted "make sure you flag him for it", I'm inclined to not put on my tin foil hat. I also am not naive enough to think the Pats don't submit their own such requests, so I'm not going to sit around and bitch about it.

Papelbon's Poutine said:

Honest question : did you watch all 14 games today in comparable intensity and are able to compare the performance of the refs across the board?

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I watched Red Zone. And I've watched every nationally televised game this year (Thu/Sun/Mon) and none was called this poorly.

I just think that if--as is starting to seem like a reasonable guess--the league is giving this instruction to crews each week, it's kind of problematic. The direction should either be to look for illegal contact or not, but not to be singling out one player.

Adrian's Dome said:

Well, if this is how we're conducting our arguments...DO YOU THINK THIS GAME WAS CALLED PROPERLY AND DO YOU HONESTLY THINK THE LEAGUE HAS GIVEN THE PATRIOTS A FAIR SHAKE?

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I think mistakes were made. I think mistakes are made by the refs in every game. I think if there were some way to watch every game, with the same level of emotional attachment as it were "your team" every time on both sides, you'd find a game like this every week. I'm pissed at the calls as much as you are. I'm not ready to chalk it up to a conspiracy the league has against the Pats because, as stated, the refs and the league are not the same entity. And I find it much more likely that incompetence both is the cause of the refs fucking up and the most logical explanation as to why the league could never pull it off if they were so inclined.

CaptainLaddie said:

I watched Red Zone. And I've watched every nationally televised game this year (Thu/Sun/Mon) and none was called this poorly.

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So you've seen about 20% pf the games and then drives inside the 20? And you fell this is a solid sample size?

Papelbon's Poutine said:

I think mistakes were made. I think mistakes are made by the refs in every game. I think if there were some way to watch every game, with the same level of emotional attachment as it were "your team" every time on both sides, you'd find a game like this every week. I'm pissed at the calls as much as you are. I'm not ready to chalk it up to a conspiracy the league has against the Pats because, as stated, the refs and the league are not the same entity. And I find it much more likely that incompetence both is the cause of the refs fucking up and the most logical explanation as to why the league could never pull it off if they were so inclined.

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Well, given that I firmly believe this is the third consecutive game we've gotten the shaft plus the league's disdain for the Patriots in general (given everything factual we know about Deflategate,) we're going to have to agree to disagree on that one.

Everything you've argued is "welp, if you can't show equal levels of incompetence in every other NFL game, you don't have a point." I just don't find that stance reasonable.

Papelbon's Poutine said:

So you've seen about 20% pf the games and then drives inside the 20? And you fell this is a solid sample size?

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I think I've watched enough football, both pro and college, in my 30+ years on earth to know when a game is horribly officiated. This was on the level of the 2012 Pats/Ravens game, and that was officiated by replacement refs.

WayBackVazquez said:

I just think that if--as is starting to seem like a reasonable guess--the league is giving this instruction to crews each week, it's kind of problematic. The direction should either be to look for illegal contact or not, but not to be singling out one player.

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I agree to an extent, but I don't think it's anything new. "Points of emphasis" were only made aware to the public because of deflategate. I have no reason to think they haven't existed since Polian bitched in 2003 and I don't think it's unique to Gronk. He has actually deserved some of his flags. The refs can only see so much. I venture to think BB submits his own each week from stuff he sees on film, just as every coach does.

I think anyone who watches football with any kind of knowledge knows that Gronkowski has been fucked over on OPI calls. They're calling him for nothing.

CaptainLaddie said:

I think I've watched enough football, both pro and college, in my 30+ years on earth to know when a game is horribly officiated. This was on the level of the 2012 Pats/Ravens game, and that was officiated by replacement refs.

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I'm not saying it wasn't officiated well I'm saying it doesn't equate a conspiracy against NE. Nor was it the determining factor. I'm glad your 30+ years have shown you how to spot a badly called game. But all those games you didn't watch prevent you from seeing how often it might happen.

Adrian's Dome said:

Well, given that I firmly believe this is the third consecutive game we've gotten the shaft plus the league's disdain for the Patriots in general (given everything factual we know about Deflategate,) we're going to have to agree to disagree on that one.

Everything you've argued is "welp, if you can't show equal levels of incompetence in every other NFL game, you don't have a point." I just don't find that stance reasonable.

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Oh, well I didn't realize you firmly believe they have gotten the shaft for three straight games. In that case, by all means, continue to rail on about Goodell sitting in the booth and having a direct line to the refs every play. That sounds extremely reasonable.

Papelbon's Poutine said:

I'm not saying it wasn't officiated well I'm saying it doesn't equate a conspiracy against NE. Nor was it the determining factor. I'm glad your 30+ years have shown you how to spot a badly called game. But all those games you didn't watch prevent you from seeing how often it might happen.

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I'm sorry we, as fans, haven't been able to watch every minute of every live football game, televised or not, to gather a sufficient sample size to offer a valid opinion on officiating or the league in general.

Oh, well I didn't realize you firmly believe they have gotten the shaft for three straight games. In that case, by all means, continue to rail on about Goodell sitting in the booth and having a direct line to the refs every play. That sounds extremely reasonable.

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Because this was exactly what I said, word for word. The hyperbole is real, perhaps the conspiracies are as well.

Papelbon's Poutine said:

I'm not saying it wasn't officiated well I'm saying it doesn't equate a conspiracy against NE. Nor was it the determining factor. I'm glad your 30+ years have shown you how to spot a badly called game. But all those games you didn't watch prevent you from seeing how often it might happen.

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I'm not saying it's a conspiracy. But anyone watching tonight's game -- I watched with 5 non-Patriots fans, people who hate the Pats -- would realize how awful it was called, and I got nothing but "are you serious?" and "I'm really sorry" from these folks. This game was fucking awful. Anyone who knows how football works knows this was terrible.

Adrian's Dome said:

I'm sorry we, as fans, haven't been able to watch every minute of every live football game, televised or not, to gather a sufficient sample size to offer a valid opinion on officiating or the league in general.

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Is it really unreasonable to say that one should avoid making grandiose claims when one cannot provide anywhere near enough evidence to actually support them?

Adrian's Dome said:

I'm sorry we, as fans, haven't been able to watch every minute of every live football game, televised or not, to gather a sufficient sample size to offer an opinion on officiating or the league in general.

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In which case you should probably stop claiming to be persecuted over every bad call. Because they happen. To every team. More than once a year. And often times that fans can claim it cost them the game. There is nothing unique about tonight. It's chance. We got a shit sandwich, but it happens. Stop being a baby and spouting off. Talk to a fan of any other team and they will have a game they can cite.

It. Happens.

It hurts more because undefeated. Because Broncos. Because we couldn't overcome.

But no, it wasn't a bag job. Grow up.

CaptainLaddie said:

I'm not saying it's a conspiracy. But anyone watching tonight's game -- I watched with 5 non-Patriots fans, people who hate the Pats -- would realize how awful it was called, and I got nothing but "are you serious?" and "I'm really sorry" from these folks. This game was fucking awful. Anyone who knows how football works knows this was terrible.

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Please cite where I said it wasn't poorly called...ill wait.

I'm saying it happens to every team at one point. Claiming the league was behind it is bullshit. Claiming that it cost us the game is making excuses. They didn't execute. If they did it wouldn't have mattered. People are being far too emotional about losing one game. I give a lot more shits about Gronk and Hightower than I do about losing that game. If the league had spotted Denever 20 points and we came out with them fine i would have rathered that.

williams_482 said:

Is it really unreasonable to say that one should avoid making grandiose claims when one cannot provide anywhere near enough evidence to actually support them?

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That's the problem. There's no evidence of fairness or lack thereof from either side. Why one stance is deemed acceptable and the other unreasonable, well, I'll leave that to you and PP.

Papelbon's Poutine said:

Please cite where I said it wasn't poorly called...ill wait.

I'm saying it happens to every team at one point. Claiming the league was behind it is bullshit. Claiming that it cost us the game is making excuses. They didn't execute. If they did it wouldn't have mattered. People are being far too emotional about losing one game. I give a lot more shits about Gronk and Hightower than I do about losing that game. If the league had spotted Denever 20 points and we came out with them fine i would have rathered that.

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Do you think after the offseason the NFL wants a fair outcome for the Patriots?

On a final note, shrugging and saying "it happens to everyone!" when you're dealt a brown paper bag full of a steaming shit sandwich is enabling the continuation of a big problem. We got screwed today, and you're willing to admit we got screwed today, but it's no big deal because maybe some other team got screwed two weeks ago as well. Makes sense.

I don't give a flying fuck if there is a conspiracy or not. I don't care if the league is behind it or not. I just want it to fucking stop. Period.

There is horrendous officiating in every single game in the NFL. The difference with the Patriots is that it's completely fucking one sided. Anyone that knows a damn thing about football that watched that game tonight can find a half dozen calls that were made up out of whole cloth against the Patriots. And most of them just so happened to wipe out huge, game changing plays that the Patriots made. You keep saying that the Patriots should have done this, they should have played better, yada yada yada bullshit. THEY MADE THOSE FUCKING PLAYS. Then the refs took them away. Brady made the 51 yard pass to Martin that would have put at least another 3 points on the board. Brady made the pass to Gronk that would have given them a first down and wiped at least a couple more minutes off the clock (and probably would have saved Gronk from having his leg destroyed not one minute later). The Patriots sacked Osweiler and forced a 3rd and goal from the 20, which the refs literally turned into a 1st and goal from the 5.

On the flipside, what the fuck did Denver do? On the go ahead touchdown, the refs blatantly missed illegal hands to the face (the picture is up thread), a "point of emphasis" penalty that they aren't supposed to miss. On the winning touchdown, they missed McCourty getting raped on the edge to the point where he couldn't move one foot to make a tackle, leading to Anderson's td. They missed two blows to Brady's head that would have kept drives alive, and countless other holding calls that led to "cutback" lanes for Denver's runners.

You seem to think that one side should be required to play perfect football, otherwise, they deserve to lose. That's all well and good, but that's horseshit. The Patriots did what they needed to do to win that game tonight, and probably win it easily, and it was stolen from them by the zebras. Whether or not the league office had anything to do with it is up to others to decide. I could give a shit. I'm just getting tired of watching it week in and week out. I'll settle for the horrible BALANCED officiating I see elsewhere in the 20+ football games a week, thank you very much.

CaptainLaddie said:

Do you think after the offseason the NFL wants a fair outcome for the Patriots?

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I think the league wants whatever garners them the most attention and therefore makes them most amount of money. Beyond that I think they could give two shits.

Look, if the clown show hasn't been exposed at this point, I'm not sure what to say. I don't give the "league" enough credit to be competent enough or even able to sit around and conspire against one team and then get the refs to agree to carry it out. If you want to believe that, enjoy.

Yeah, you all need to go to sleep and take a step back. Game thread this is not.

I could fuck that post, Greg.

Papelbon's Poutine said:

I think the league wants whatever garners them the most attention and therefore makes them most amount of money. Beyond that I think they could give two shits.

Look, if the clown show hasn't been exposed at this point, I'm not sure what to say. I don't give the "league" enough credit to be competent enough or even able to sit around and conspire against one team and then get the refs to agree to carry it out. If you want to believe that, enjoy.

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Good answer. You nailed what I thought.

Papelbon's Poutine said:

Look, if the clown show hasn't been exposed at this point, I'm not sure what to say. I don't give the "league" enough credit to be competent enough or even able to sit around and conspire against one team and then get the refs to agree to carry it out. If you want to believe that, enjoy.

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Would you give them enough credit to get to the bottom of a supposed cheating conspiracy with millions of dollars and an independent investigation?

Papelbon's Poutine said:

I think the league wants whatever garners them the most attention and therefore makes them most amount of money. Beyond that I think they could give two shits.
.

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You're absolutely right about this. And you know what makes them a lot more money? Good, close football games. Not blowouts. As a result, I believe the Patriots are being held to a different standard than any other team in the league. It's why every single nitpicky little penalty that could be called is called on the Patriots, and yet, their opponents are only called for the most egregious of violations, and sometimes not even that. I think the referees are human too, and they get caught up in the crowd and moment just like anyone else, and if they called these games squarely, they would end up with 40-14 finals every week with the Patriots, so instead, they do everything they can to keep the underdog in the game.

The Patriots are executing. They are executing at a higher level than any team in this league full of mediocre shit. And the refs are holding them to a different standard than everyone else as a result. And when you do that enough, like tonight, you end up deciding the outcome of the game. Even the Patriots can't win when the bar is set so high for them, and so low for their opponent that they aren't even playing the same game, never mind by the same rules.

Papelbon's Poutine said:

I agree to an extent, but I don't think it's anything new. "Points of emphasis" were only made aware to the public because of deflategate. I have no reason to think they haven't existed since Polian bitched in 2003 and I don't think it's unique to Gronk. He has actually deserved some of his flags. The refs can only see so much. I venture to think BB submits his own each week from stuff he sees on film, just as every coach does.

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The issue with the OPIs on Gronk is that 99/100 times, they don't get called on anyone else. Thomas did the same thing in the endzone and drew a DPI when Chung grabbed on in retaliation. Basically, the Computer Assist AI kicks in because Gronk is a man playing with boys.

And I'm not quite sure what you mean by the bolded. That's just not true.

Nothing else really bothered me. NFL referees are terrible and have been all season. And people are starting to wake up to it. There are few professions that are as consistently awful with as high profile.

Myt1 said:

The issue with the OPIs on Gronk is that 99/100 times, they don't get called on anyone else. Thomas did the same thing in the endzone and drew a DPI when Chung grabbed on in retaliation. Basically, the Computer Assist AI kicks in because Gronk is a man playing with boys.

And I'm not quite sure what you mean by the bolded. That's just not true.

Nothing else really bothered me. NFL referees are terrible and have been all season. And people are starting to wake up to it. There are few professions that are as consistently awful with as high profile.

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I was going to say the same. We've known about points of emphasis for many many years. The league makes them public, don't they?

What was exposed out of deflate gate was the teams having an ability to give the refs points to look out for before each game. However, I and many others assumed that happened before deflate gate. I mean, it goes on even at the high school level and in many sports, albeit usually not so formal.

Was Chris Harper's muff partly a coaching gaffe?

Pats are in the driver's seat there, up 21-7 needing to run time off the clock. Game conditions are awful (Broncos also muffed a punt), which should favor the team with the 2 TD lead. Very inexperienced punt returner back deep.

What would have been so bad about ordering Harper not to fucking touch the ball?

The defense was horrible tonight late. They gave up 23 points on the final five drives of the game. The three touchdown drives late all took five plays or fewer. Denver got the ball 2:30 left and zero timeouts and needed a touchdown and the only good thing was the defense let them score so fast that Brady had the chance to tie the game. The run D holes from early in the season re-emerged, and they had to blitz LBs to get any pass rush. Why wasn't Chandler Jones making hay against Denver's third-string LT?

Harper's gaffe, obviously.

The offensive line is pretty bad generally, and it was sad that they couldn't run the ball even after Williams and Ward went out. 16 carries for 39 yards? The passing game gave them about what I expected, maybe more, but clearly they can't run the ball against any sort of decent front, and the defense is going to have play a lot better than they did last night.

This sounds like it was the perfect game to not have watched.

Papelbon's Poutine said:

Please cite where I said it wasn't poorly called...ill wait.

I'm saying it happens to every team at one point. Claiming the league was behind it is bullshit. Claiming that it cost us the game is making excuses. They didn't execute. If they did it wouldn't have mattered. People are being far too emotional about losing one game. I give a lot more shits about Gronk and Hightower than I do about losing that game. If the league had spotted Denever 20 points and we came out with them fine i would have rathered that.

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The shitty officiating was a necessary condition for the outcome, even if it wasn't sufficient.

The NFL has gone full WWE with its officiating.

Critical, ticky-tack calls against the Pats (most notably Gronk and Chung) while letting the Broncos get away with whatever the fuck they want. Running into the kicker? No flag. Miller lauches himself to hit Brady high? No flag. Grabbing a hold of Chandler Jones' facemask to "block" him on the tying TD? No flag. A hold on the game ending TD run? No flag.