2017 NBA offseason thread

BigSoxFan

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I agree they have had a great offseason but as mentioned in other thread, Crawford isn't any prize. He is high volume chucker who hits below average from the field and deep. If I am Thibs and he starts that shit I cut his ass fast. He will be taking shots the the younger guys or Butler or Teague should be taking.
For a bench scorer role, I still think he's a decent fit. Also provides additional veteran presence, which I think is valuable for a team like this. Obviously, Butler and Teague make this team older as well. No idea how this team does this year but I'm quite intrigued and really hope we get to see Towns in the playoffs.
 

saintnick912

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Seeing this Harden deal reminds me of a question I had. If the incumbent team can already offer extra years and dollars, why would a team ever offer the super max contact? It just seems like a fast track to a lopsided roster.
 

Cellar-Door

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Seeing this Harden deal reminds me of a question I had. If the incumbent team can already offer extra years and dollars, why would a team ever offer the super max contact? It just seems like a fast track to a lopsided roster.
because most of the time it isn't much more because anyone under 33 or so wants to opt out after a few years and hit the market again. Hayward is a nice example, he'll opt out after 3, so the difference between BOS and UTA was only a small amount. The extra year is really only important for guys who might be on their last contract, and the $ difference is relatively small.
 

Cellar-Door

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Smart move by the Nets, got paid a 2018 1st and 2nd to each 2 years $30 of DeMarre Carroll.
 

sox311

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That's what she said.
Exactly what the Nets need to do. Let's hope Carroll plays as he has the past two years in Toronto and keeps the Nets at the bottom of the league.

Does this give the Raptors a shot at Caldwell-Pope? Either that or they are looking for Norm Powell to continue his excellent play of the last two months off the season
 

Cellar-Door

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Exactly what the Nets need to do. Let's hope Carroll plays as he has the past two years in Toronto and keeps the Nets at the bottom of the league.

Does this give the Raptors a shot at Caldwell-Pope? Either that or they are looking for Norm Powell to continue his excellent play of the last two months off the season
No shot at KCP, they're way over the cap. This trade is an attempt to get out of the tax. cuts about 12M off their salary which should JUST sneak them under the tax line.
 

LondonSox

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Crawford signing reaction is like a how up to date with the NBA are you test.
He's basically done. Was simply awful this year.

The wolves are showing how not to build around two studs. They lucked into a second star and are executing a "how to build horrendous spacing team, realise last minute and buy a floor spacer who is done" off-season really well.
 

Apisith

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Yeah, I think they have rushed this rebuild. Towns and Wiggins are still young, they didn't need to accelerate it like this. Now they're capped out with a lot of older players. They should not have gone for Gibson or Crawford.
 

HowBoutDemSox

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Knicks and David Griffin in talks:

The New York Knicks are progressing toward opening contract negotiations with David Griffin to become the team's next general manager, league sources told ESPN.

Griffin, the former Cleveland Cavaliers GM, traveled to New York on Friday for a dinner meeting with Knicks executive Steve Mills, with whom Griffin has continued to discuss the shaping of a potential Knicks partnership.

Griffin is also expected to meet with owner James Dolan in the near future, league sources said.
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19930463/new-york-knicks-ex-cleveland-cavaliers-gm-david-griffin-progressing-contract-negotiations
 

PedroKsBambino

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I assume they were deep into negotiations on that when the KCP opportunity opened up---I know Zach Lowe had alluded to Knicks 'preparing a big offer for someone' before Detroit made their moves. If so, the Knicks likely couldn't (relationship-wise) back off the offer.

That acknowledged, wouldn't you much prefer to try and get off some salary and get KCP at a litlte higher number than get Hardaway Jr at his salary?
 

mcpickl

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I hate that move for Brooklyn.

I know they need to be accumulating picks, but 30M of Demarre Carroll feels way to expensive a price for a late 1st and a 2nd.

I'd have held my cap space til a team became more desperate to dump a salary, or keep firing shots at the Otto Porters' and KCPs out there.
 

moondog80

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I hate that move for Brooklyn.

I know they need to be accumulating picks, but 30M of Demarre Carroll feels way to expensive a price for a late 1st and a 2nd.

I'd have held my cap space til a team became more desperate to dump a salary, or keep firing shots at the Otto Porters' and KCPs out there.
Nobody is left this year and nobody worthwhile is going to go there next year, at best they'd just end up overpaying he next Demarre Carroll. So they get a draft pick and this saves hem from themselves. Win.
 

slamminsammya

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I hate that move for Brooklyn.

I know they need to be accumulating picks, but 30M of Demarre Carroll feels way to expensive a price for a late 1st and a 2nd.

I'd have held my cap space til a team became more desperate to dump a salary, or keep firing shots at the Otto Porters' and KCPs out there.
1) What players out there would be salary dump candidates who are better than Carroll?

2) The risk with the RFA's, and really most RFA's in general is that almost by definition you won't sign them unless you vastly overpay them.

Carroll is still a decent player.
 

ElUno20

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The Crawford to the twolves has to be about leadership in the locker room. Despite his on court play and style, off the court he is a grade A pro and mentor to young players. Ironically, Levine was one of the young kids from Seattle he had in his camps from a young age.
 

mcpickl

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1) What players out there would be salary dump candidates who are better than Carroll?

2) The risk with the RFA's, and really most RFA's in general is that almost by definition you won't sign them unless you vastly overpay them.

Carroll is still a decent player.
Not looking for a player better than Carroll. Carroll isn't relevant to me. They didn't want Carroll. They wanted the picks that came with taking Carrolls' trash contract.

I think 30M is way too high a price to pay for a pick likely to be in the 20s and another likely to be in the 50s.

Again, I'd have waited to see if another team became more desperate for cap space.
 

cheech13

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Carroll was at his best playing for Atkinson in Atlanta. Maybe they think there's something salvageable there in addition to the picks.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Nobody is left this year and nobody worthwhile is going to go there next year, at best they'd just end up overpaying he next Demarre Carroll. So they get a draft pick and this saves hem from themselves. Win.
KCP is the guy who is more interesting than the picks in my mind.

Also agree BKN must think they can get value out of the player, otherwise this is an overpay for mediocre picks anyway
 

lovegtm

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KCP is the guy who is more interesting than the picks in my mind.

Also agree BKN must think they can get value out of the player, otherwise this is an overpay for mediocre picks anyway
KCP probably won't be on the next contending Nets team. I think they're just taking a flier that they find the next Giannis/Gobert/Butler. That off chance is probably worth more than KCP.

In addition, once they finish giving their future to the Celtics, they will want to start tanking for real, so they probably are starting to prepare for that.

The situation would be different if they had any other pieces/some semblance of a team, since then they could start playing the "free agent in NYC" game, but they're still a couple years and impact players away from that.
 

slamminsammya

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Not looking for a player better than Carroll. Carroll isn't relevant to me. They didn't want Carroll. They wanted the picks that came with taking Carrolls' trash contract.

I think 30M is way too high a price to pay for a pick likely to be in the 20s and another likely to be in the 50s.

Again, I'd have waited to see if another team became more desperate for cap space.
The money is irrelevant. They need to spend up to the floor so they might as well get something out of it and he's still an OK player.
 

mcpickl

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The money is irrelevant. They need to spend up to the floor so they might as well get something out of it and he's still an OK player.
The money is very relevant, it's the floor that's irrelevant. There is no penalty for not hitting the floor. You just pay the players on your roster at the end of the season the amount you're short of the floor.

It doesn't matter if he's an OK player. What does an OK vet do for Brooklyn? Push them from 20 to 22 wins? Having an extra 15M on your books this year, and worse 15M more on your books next year, limits your flexibility to do other things.

Maybe a young player like KCP becomes unexpectedly available and you can sign him. Maybe a player like KCP becomes unexpectedly available and another team wants to sign him but has no cap space to do it, you can be their dumping ground and take back less than 30M for extra picks. Maybe next summer when the cap crunch is too tight for some teams, you could use your extra 15M in space to hold some one up then?

Is it really that weird to think taking on 30M for Demarre Carroll for two blah picks is too much? It's not like this was an either/or option to take Carroll on, or not be able to hit the floor or never again be able to use your cap space for anything else.

My guess is over the next two seasons, they'd have had a better option to use 30M in cap space.
 

PedroKsBambino

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KCP probably won't be on the next contending Nets team. I think they're just taking a flier that they find the next Giannis/Gobert/Butler. That off chance is probably worth more than KCP.

In addition, once they finish giving their future to the Celtics, they will want to start tanking for real, so they probably are starting to prepare for that.

The situation would be different if they had any other pieces/some semblance of a team, since then they could start playing the "free agent in NYC" game, but they're still a couple years and impact players away from that.
KCP is a lot more likely to improve another level and be flipped for a high pick/young player who might be on the next good Brooklyn team than either of this picks is to generate that player, though. There's very little chance the 2018 Tor 1st is a good pick---if they got a pick a couple years out it would be a much, much more interesting bet. But they didn't. The hit rate of 'Gobert/Butler' picks is horrendously bad.

Plus, being better now is worth something, too.

I mean, I don't hate it as much as mcpickl because I think in concept trading space for picks makes sense for Brooklyn. I just doubt this is a very good application of the concept. I think they must believe Carroll will be a useful player and perhaps swappable himself.
 

bowiac

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Here's a version 0.1 sort of thing with 2018 win projections:



Obviously a lot of guys remained unsigned, so there will be changes. This is based on the current rosters listed on Rotoworld, and then assigning minutes algorithmically. The minutes assignments in particular are both super important, and essentially need to be done by hand to be "correct", but I'm gonna wait until free agency is over for that. In the meantime, there are lots of mistakes (the algorithmic method assigns Rozier to play 28 minutes for instance). So super grain of salt kind of stuff.
 

lovegtm

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Even with the caveats, where is the Jazz part of the projection coming from? I know Gobert is an RPM superstar, but I didn't think the rest of their roster would generate that kind of rough prediction.
 

DJnVa

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Jazz jump out, and big logjam between Kings and Magic does too. Thinking the Kings might do a bit better, and hopefully Nets drop some.

Celtics around 51 seems about right--they outperformed their pythag last year by a decent amount, so a "correction" in win totals doesn't mean team didn't improve.
 

bowiac

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The Jazz number is driven largely by an extremely favorable view of Rubio, which is obviously a divisive issue.
 

BigSoxFan

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Lakers seems pretty low to me although I'd be just fine with it, for obvious reasons.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Interesting....

Sacto definitely fails the offseason if they come back wtih only 26 wins. And they certainly could, adding post-prime guys is not generally that helpful for a team in their situation
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Jazz jump out, and big logjam between Kings and Magic does too. Thinking the Kings might do a bit better, and hopefully Nets drop some.

Celtics around 51 seems about right--they outperformed their pythag last year by a decent amount, so a "correction" in win totals doesn't mean team didn't improve.
Also worth noting that in addition to Rozier penciled in by Rotoworld as the starting SG, the current starting PF listed is Jonas Jerebko. Eager to see the adjustments as bowiac's projection absolutely killed it last year IIRC.
 

bowiac

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The Thunder number was driven by some funky (i.e., bad) minutes projections, due to how Rotoworld structured the depth chart (they list Abrines and Grant as the starters, while I would expect Roberson to see a decent number of minutes at the 2 ahead of Abrines for instances, and Patterson to play ahead of Grant). I just went through and did a hand correction of their rotations to make them look more realistic, and they jump a bunch to 48.6 wins. Even that's gonna be low, since I project the Thunder to overperform in close and late situations, which isn't yet built into these projections, but is worth a couple wins.

The Timberwolves at 50 wins seems about right to me actually. I was expecting a bigger jump to be honest.

The Lakers should improve once they use their cap space, but right now there's not a lot of talent of that team. Their numbers will jump a bit once I add in projections from summer league stats, which should boost Ingram. If you expect Ball to be good as a rookie, they'll also jump, but I am not optimistic there - 19 year old guards are pretty much never good.
 

DJnVa

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Celtics should win 55 games IMO. Hayward will help immensely and Smart/Brown/Tatum/Baynes is a better bench.
That's a decent jump actually. Pythag had them at 48 wins last season.

I know in baseball that sometimes teams with REALLY good bullpens can outperform pythag--is there a similar link in basketball?
 

bowiac

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That's a decent jump actually. Pythag had them at 48 wins last season.

I know in baseball that sometimes teams with REALLY good bullpens can outperform pythag--is there a similar link in basketball?
Yes. I've found teams with more concentrated offensive production outperform their Pythagorean records (i.e., it's good to have Westbrook). This mostly makes sense - your crunchtime lineup has outsized influence on winning close games, while the strength of your bench matters less there. I have not found a similar link with defensive value, although that may be simply because measuring defense is harder.


The Celtics do have that with Thomas, although some of it depends on how reproducible you think his season was.
 
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Sam Ray Not

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I still like OKC's roster composition more than Houston's. I suspect both teams will have some chemistry issues to work out early on — Houston @ 59 seems high to me for that reason — but I think OKC's elite defensive potential makes them a lot more fearsome come playoff time. (See Rockets v. Spurs, 2017).

Given the fierce competition in the West, I'd knock the Rockets O/U down to more like 54; and if they go and do something dumb like flip Gordon or Ariza for Carmelo Anthony, I think they could slip even further.
 

Devizier

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The Timberwolves at 50 wins seems about right to me actually. I was expecting a bigger jump to be honest.
They've got a solid starting five, but their depth looks pretty thin. Crawford and Aldrich are their first options off the bench.
 
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Cesar Crespo

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GSW probably isn't winning 70 and Houston may win 55 instead of 58, but those seem like arguments around the margins. The Jazz have already been mentioned, OKC was explained. The Clippers at 50 seems pretty high to me but I'm Jon Snow when it comes to Teodosic. I could buy NO winning 50... I could also easily see them winning 30-35. Milwaukee may win a few less games because it probably doesn't take Jabari's injury into play? Minnesota has the talent to win 50 games, Denver should be considerably better as well.

The West will be really fun this year. Denver, Minnesota and Portland should all continue to improve and make the playoffs. But that means 2 teams that made it last year aren't. Jazz, Clippers, Memphis...

Speaking of the Grizzlies, that's a drastic fall, and probably accurate. That 2019 pick could very well be a late lottery pick for the Celtics or even a top 5 pick in 2021.

As for the other projected lottery teams, I'm not even sure the projections mean much other than they are terrible teams. The Bulls, Nets, and Hawks should all be terrible while the Lakers, Suns, Kings, Magic, etc. at least have legit prospects. Those teams with prospects tend to win games in late March/Early April. We saw it with the Suns and Lakers this year.
 

amfox1

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Toronto seems low. Under these projections it takes 46 wins to make the Western playoffs, while DET slips into the 8th spot in the East with 36 wins. Teams like DAL, PHX, LAL and SAC will likely have their records underperform their projections just because of strength of schedule.
 

Cesar Crespo

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They've got a solid starting five, but their depth looks pretty thin and I don't see them putting together a deeper bench this season.
KAT, Wiggins and Butler all averaged 37+ minutes last year. Dieng and Teague averaged 32. They aren't going to need much of a bench, and honestly their bench situation isn't much different than ours. Gibson, Crawford, Bjelica gives them bodies at the very least. Not sure if they are bringing back Shabazz but that would help even more. Tyus Jones is still really young, ditto Patton. Patton breaking his foot kinda sucks but he should provide big man depth at least.

Our bench is a proven Morris, an inconsistent Rozier, a meh big in Baynes, and rookies/2nd year players in JB, Tatum, Zizic, Yabu, Theis. Possibly Semi and a few others, but more rookies.
 

bowiac

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Toronto seems low. Under these projections it takes 46 wins to make the Western playoffs, while DET slips into the 8th spot in the East with 36 wins. Teams like DAL, PHX, LAL and SAC will likely have their records underperform their projections just because of strength of schedule.
Strength of schedule is somewhat accounted for here: I'm using the 2017 schedule as a rough approximation of the 2018 schedule). This projects game by game win probabilities using that.
 

smastroyin

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KAT, Wiggins and Butler all averaged 37+ minutes last year. Dieng and Teague averaged 32. They aren't going to need much of a bench, and honestly their bench situation isn't much different than ours. Gibson, Crawford, Bjelica gives them bodies at the very least. Not sure if they are bringing back Shabazz but that would help even more. Tyus Jones is still really young, ditto Patton. Patton breaking his foot kinda sucks but he should provide big man depth at least.
They're talking about adding Gerald Green, so I'm bumping them to 60 wins.