I wouldn't just walk away---I'd file a grievance. It may well be that Celts played fast and loose, or that there's an honest misunderstanding about what was agreed to initially. But these are sophisticated parties and it's a huge transaction, I think at this point the most likely explanation is Cleveland is playing games.If DA portrayed IT as being 100% ready to go at the beginning of the season, and Clevaland's exam showed that his career was likely over, adding Tatum to the deal still would be too much. Given that the disparity in perception is actually far narrower, asking for Tatum is downright insane.
If this request was actually made, I really just see the original deal being voided as DA would realize that Cleveland is basically trying to renegotiate from square one.
I'd feel better if he included the LA, Memphis, and LAC picks as well.Not the most reputable source, but it makes me feel good
I think the one of the non-LAL picks is likely how this gets resolved. Whether that's fair depends on how bad IT's hip is.I'd feel better if he included the LA, Memphis, and LAC picks as well.
If Boston walks away, why does Phoenix need to beat their offer? They aren't going to increase their offer to compete with a deal that's no longer going to happen especially given the execrable state of Eric Bledsoe's knees in light of Boston's difficulties.Phoenix may or may not have known what the final offer from Boston was prior to the deal being executed. Even if the Cavs went back and told PHX, "we have this offer on the table, can you beat it", they may have thought they were bluffing. If PHX had known for certain, maybe they extend themselves a bit and offer Bender and Chriss. Knowing what it actually takes to get Kyrie is a very important piece of information that teams now have. I could see more bidders jumping in now, not less, and PHX having lost out once on him, might be more aggressive in getting him.
He knew, roughly, what it would take, but he needed another star to make it work, which meant that the deals had to wait until after the Hayward signing. Neither team was willing to wait.Take the Butler and George deals. If Ainge knew for certain what it would have taken for those players, and the deals fell through because of a failed physical, do you think he would up his offer to match it (thereby guaranteeing you get the player) or drop it and risk losing the players again?
What does this say for those of us on mobile?Not the most reputable source, but it makes me feel good
It says "don't use the app."What does this say for those of us on mobile?
That's madness. Jaylen Brown is 2 years of development ahead of the as-yet-theoretical Nets pick; his current development trajectory is probably 60th percentile of the expected result of that pick. With lower variance, and adding value today rather than a year from now. I'm a big fan of what the Nets pick can bring us, but Jaylen Brown ought to be thought of as more valuable than the Brooklyn pick, not less.I agree with Pedro's K. Brown-Crowder-Zizik-Rozier no pick no IT, and let CLE figure out what to do with 21 players.
The app is there as a courtesy, but we all know it fucking sucks in general and can't handle even basic web posting. If you use it, that's fine, but be aware that it's fucking shitty in general and go ahead and use the actual site when it's incompetent. Don't ask people to pander to its incompetence.What does this say for those of us on mobile?
Right, but who is giving them a king's ransom for him, when they know he's headed to an LA team next year? The Lakers would be stupid to, since they can just wait and he's not making a difference this year. Clips don't have all that much to offer for one year and no guarantee. I'm failing to see a situation of a team that wouldn't have to decimate their team salary cap wise to fit him in and it would be worth it.The cavs should really consider at this point doing this Irving trade, and then trading Lebron for a king's ransom (heh). Might as well accelerate the rebuild.
He'd have to, wouldn't he? That said, if they trade Kyrie and IT can't play, you'd have to think he'd want out. As would Love. In fact, it might be a best case scenario for LeBron, PR-wise. He doesn't have to leave Cleveland again, instead he gets traded away to jumpstart a rebuilt...He has a full no trade clause I think?
There's not even close to 15 teams that adding Lebron to makes them a title contender.Any irrelevant team that wants to have a fun year competing for a title and wants an outside shot at re-signing him before they slip back to their perennial mediocrity. There's probably 15 teams in this category.
I just don't agree that they are screwed. And if Ainge always intended to not re-sign IT but also thinks they are screwed without a premium PG, then why pass on Fultz/Ball (or, after trading down Fox or Smith?) It doesn't make a lot of sense as a whole. My guess is that Ainge (and Stevens) were content to let the IT thing play out, go with Smart if IT left, etc., and this trade doesn't really change that too much.Given their public ask for one of two almost untouchable assets, this appears to be heading in a bad direction. Once again, assuming Thomas and Crowder are professional enough to return without causing any beef, what does Boston do with Thomas' salary slot? Not only is it clear Ainge never intended to resign him but he almost certainly won't return to the Celtics for Brinks truck money even if his hip magically mends itself and he can perform at the same level as last season. So Ainge can walk away but this puts the team in an even bigger bind.
I hate to say it but they Celtics may be surrendering more than a trivial piece here to complete this trade.
Two things. The Cs were never going to resign IT and they don't care about his salary slot. If you look at this post-Hayward cap analysis, signing IT to a $25MM contract would put the C's salaries at over $180MM which climbs to $211MM including luxury taxes. That wasn't going to happen even if IT were a paragon of health.Again, we are thinking about this from the Celtics side of things. If Cleveland made the deal predicated on Thomas being able to play, say, a month into the season and, upon evaluation, their medical team now estimates a spring return, that lends legitimacy to their claim for more compensation. We simply don't know the exact details of what was shared and agreed to other than the principals in the trade.
Given their public ask for one of two almost untouchable assets, this appears to be heading in a bad direction. Once again, assuming Thomas and Crowder are professional enough to return without causing any beef, what does Boston do with Thomas' salary slot? Not only is it clear Ainge never intended to resign him but he almost certainly won't return to the Celtics for Brinks truck money even if his hip magically mends itself and he can perform at the same level as last season. So Ainge can walk away but this puts the team in an even bigger bind.
I hate to say it but they Celtics may be surrendering more than a trivial piece here to complete this trade.
Pretty much any team that made the playoffs last year would be a contender with LBJ, except for those that have lost key assets (Bulls, Pacers, Jazz). I think LeBron vaults the T-Wolves or Pelicans into instant contention too. That's exactly 15 teams.There's not even close to 15 teams that adding Lebron to makes them a title contender.
It's not just that their absurd (alleged) ask is for assets that are so out sync with the value that would need to be conveyed to compensate for a later-than-expected return date on IT. It's that neither of those assets fix that the problem. Are they gonna flip Tatum or Brown for another PG? This has all the appearance of a team that either got cold feet or where a player is actually the final say and is forcing a rookie GM to use what opportunity he can to back out of a trade.Again, we are thinking about this from the Celtics side of things. If Cleveland made the deal predicated on Thomas being able to play, say, a month into the season and, upon evaluation, their medical team now estimates a spring return, that lends legitimacy to their claim for more compensation. We simply don't know the exact details of what was shared and agreed to other than the principals in the trade.
Given their public ask for one of two almost untouchable assets, this appears to be heading in a bad direction. Once again, assuming Thomas and Crowder are professional enough to return without causing any beef, what does Boston do with Thomas' salary slot? Not only is it clear Ainge never intended to resign him but he almost certainly won't return to the Celtics for Brinks truck money even if his hip magically mends itself and he can perform at the same level as last season. So Ainge can walk away but this puts the team in an even bigger bind.
I hate to say it but they Celtics may be surrendering more than a trivial piece here to complete this trade.
One potential problem is that if the Cavs medical staff thinks IT cant play this year this trade might not work for LBJ for anything less than adding Brown/Tatum/LAL pick to give the Cavs two premium assets to flip for help this year. Even with the strong incentives both sides have to get this done I think there's a pretty good chance this reaches an impasse.Again, we are thinking about this from the Celtics side of things. If Cleveland made the deal predicated on Thomas being able to play, say, a month into the season and, upon evaluation, their medical team now estimates a spring return, that lends legitimacy to their claim for more compensation. We simply don't know the exact details of what was shared and agreed to other than the principals in the trade.
Given their public ask for one of two almost untouchable assets, this appears to be heading in a bad direction. Once again, assuming Thomas and Crowder are professional enough to return without causing any beef, what does Boston do with Thomas' salary slot? Not only is it clear Ainge never intended to resign him but he almost certainly won't return to the Celtics for Brinks truck money even if his hip magically mends itself and he can perform at the same level as last season. So Ainge can walk away but this puts the team in an even bigger bind.
I hate to say it but they Celtics may be surrendering more than a trivial piece here to complete this trade.
Why would the league get involved? The Cavs have the right to do their own physicals and they have the right to fail IT on the physical, thus voiding the trade. This has happened before in the NBA and the other sports (Peter Angelos is famous for this) though nothing this high profile. I don't see why the ordinary process doesn't work here.At some point the league has to be involved right? My understanding is when completing the trade on the league call, both teams have to state the medical condition and concerns of any player in the deal and the accepting team has to acknowledge that they understand the situation with each player. I can see a situation where there is a difference of opinion to some degree upon exam, but I can't imagine the Celtics can be actually accused of misrepresenting the situation on a call that is on the record with the league. So I would think at some point, or it possibly is ongoing right now, that the league would be involved with the teams working toward completing the deal.
This is the way I looked at the deal too and remember reading one of the C's beat writers (Kaufman, I believe) saying that the C's put the Nets pick in play in order to convince CLE form doing exactly what they're doing. Yes, IT may not play the whole season and may not be the same, but here's this shiny Nets pick to make up for it. They aren't getting a better draft pick than that for Irving. Now the two teams get to play a game of chicken and see who blinks first. If I was Danny, I wouldn't add anything else to the deal and tell CLE to go find a better offer. But if he does add something to the offer, it shouldn't be anything close to Brown, Tatum or another premium pick. Maybe the LAC pick, maybe next year's C's pick. Something along those lines. And I'd be a little pissed if Danny did that.My guess (which is consistent with what was reported by a Cleveland beat writer last night as well) is Celtics described IT's problems and prognosis and shared medical info and Cleveland asked for the Nets pick to make up for the risk IT wouldn't be next year what he was last year. So from the Celtics perspective, IT's risk was 'baked in' Otherwise, isn't the Nets pick a clear overpay?
I think what teams disclosed and agreed to determines the above. Let's imagine the negotiation was Celtics saying "we don't know IT's prognosis beyond the med records", Cleveland said "we'll take him as-is if you add in Nets pick" and Celtics say "Deal". If that were the case, I'd think league would want to be clear that teams need to agree on contingencies and such before announcements are made, and that league will hold teams to what is committed. Otherwise, you set up a ton of these situations in the future, which is a bad look for all.Why would the league get involved? The Cavs have the right to do their own physicals and they have the right to fail IT on the physical, thus voiding the trade. This has happened before in the NBA and the other sports (Peter Angelos is famous for this) though nothing this high profile. I don't see why the ordinary process doesn't work here.
I'm not of the opinion that this is a medical condition that wasn't disclosed. Yes, Cleveland has a right to do their own physical exam, but it still has to be in good faith. They can't acknowledge an injury on the league call and then suddenly have issues with a disclosed injury to attempt to pry more from the deal. That's my point, if the physical shows what was disclosed, I would think the league call would be something that would bind the parties and the league would get involved to remind Cleveland that they assumed that risk, acknowledged that condition, and made the deal fully aware of the condition and risk.Why would the league get involved? The Cavs have the right to do their own physicals and they have the right to fail IT on the physical, thus voiding the trade. This has happened before in the NBA and the other sports (Peter Angelos is famous for this) though nothing this high profile. I don't see why the ordinary process doesn't work here.
If the Cavs want to void the trade, bully for them. As presently constituted, the Cs probably weren't winning the title this year anyways. Even if IT doesn't play to the level he set last year (and that was always a possibility given his injury), the Cs still have their assets: four years of Hayeward, JB, Tatum, two potential lottery picks, Smart, etc.