Conditional picks are not allowed in NBA, so that's not an option here (absent a highly unusual action by commissioner, I guess)
Kyrie Irving traded to Celtics for IT, Crowder, Zizic, BKN 1st, 2020 2nd
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The only conditions put on picks are protections put on where the picks end up. It's not like hockey where a draft picks can be moved up or down based on, say, where a team finishes in the playoffs.
From which Boston can easily walk away? If Cleveland wants to drop an ultimatum, there's not a lot of benefit of waiting until the last minute.
Lol. And that would still be 26 times more minutes than the Cavs got out of him last year.
Still: that leg whip he took with the Cavs was pretty fluky. I wouldn't expect 1500+ minutes out of him next season, but I might expect 800-1000, which (imho) would be a lot more useful than 800-1000 minutes of Thomas Robinson. He's still only 32 (a month older than LeBron); and in recent years has been taking great care of his body — looks 30-35 lbs. lighter than he did in his first couple years with GS. And in Rio last Summer, he looked as spry and and effective as I've ever seen leading Team Australia to the Bronze medal round. His high hoops IQ, elite defense, ball skills and passing make him a great fit in Stevens-ball.
Also (to bring this vaguely back on topic): he could bond on the old country with fellow Australians Baynes and Kyrie.
If they feel, right or wrong, that Boston is the team under more pressure then they may drop it late. Just because we feel that it would be easy to walk away, doesn't mean that they do. It seems clear they've already gummed this up, no?
We've been hearing about this for a few days now and Cleveland still hasn't engaged? Why not?
That would be pretty bold of Altman. I dont think either asking for more compensation or rejecting the trade for medical reasons come with any sort of reputational hit, but not engaging and then trying to use a deadline (a deadline which can be mutually extended) for leverage would be pretty easily outside the bounds of acting in good faith.
I dunno ... a lot of vet players who seemed destined to earn signficantly more than the vet min based on last Summer's market have had rude awakenings this Summer: Derrick Rose, JaVale McGee, David West, Omri Casspi, Tyreke Evans, to name a few. When you factor in the injury question mark, it wouldn't surprise me to see him accept the minimum.
Also, the Cs — assuming they can wrap up the Kyrie trade, knocking wood — are starting to be in the GS/SA/Cle category where talented vets would rather take the minimum to play with them than take, say, a partial MLE from a cruddy team with no hope of making the playoffs.
I would guess because the Cavs havent figured out what to do yet, but they could still just come back and say "hey we need to amend this, can we extend the deadline?" rather than try and pull some power play. Possible that they just decide they cant do the trade with the bad IT physical.
Different factions in the Cavs organization wanting different things? Maybe some want the pick more than anything, LBJ be damned, others maybe still want to compete this season in LBJ's last season. If the assessment from Boston was that Thomas would be back on the court early in the season, both factions could be happy. If there is more doubt about Thomas and concerns about surgery, not so much.
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Zizic doesn't need to be replaced. The minutes at the 5 are being split by Horford and Baynes. Signing Robinson is valuable as he can provide bench minutes at the 4 whereas Zizic cannot.
Robinson was picked 5th in the draft 5 years ago and his numbers (PER, RPM) suggest he's a half-decent, league-averagish player. In spite of this, he's been on 5 different teams and is currently unemployed. There has to be a reason, right?
I mean, the distinction between 4 and 5 is often pretty arbitrary, so you need to look at the specific personnel he'd be slotting in with. Obviously you don't want to play Bogut alongside Baynes, but how many minutes is Baynes going to play? Horford and Morris are stretchy enough where a 4-5 of Horford/Bogut or Morris/Bogut is not ridiculous; and Bogut's size and rim protection actually give a little more flexibility to go small at the other positions. Something like Irving-Brown-Tatum-Hayward-Bogut, for example, makes a lot more sense (to me) than that same lineup with Robinson in place of Bogut.
Bogut also gives you a legit, full-sized C in the event Baynes goes down or gets in foul trouble, something you currently lack.
(Sorry mods ... feel free to break out).
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Cavs doctors appear to be holding this up. And no way Rozier gets thrown in here...
Steve KylerVerified account @stevekylerNBA 39m39 minutes ago
While Cavs/Celtics likely consumate their trade - Source said concern from Cavs side seems to be Boston's diagnosis of Thomas' hip
Steve KylerVerified account @stevekylerNBA
Same source said Cavs medical staff not as certain Thomas won't require surgery. Hence Cavs desire for more compensation.
Steve KylerVerified account @stevekylerNBA 38m38 minutes ago
If Cavs genuinely feel Thomas may reinjure, they would need someone or something to trade for another PG.
Steve KylerVerified account @stevekylerNBA 35m35 minutes ago
Easy solution could be inclusion of Terry Rozier, but gaining a good draft pick could help Cavs move Iman Shumpert with that pick
Steve KylerVerified account @stevekylerNBA 39m39 minutes ago
While Cavs/Celtics likely consumate their trade - Source said concern from Cavs side seems to be Boston's diagnosis of Thomas' hip
Steve KylerVerified account @stevekylerNBA
Same source said Cavs medical staff not as certain Thomas won't require surgery. Hence Cavs desire for more compensation.
Steve KylerVerified account @stevekylerNBA 38m38 minutes ago
If Cavs genuinely feel Thomas may reinjure, they would need someone or something to trade for another PG.
Steve KylerVerified account @stevekylerNBA 35m35 minutes ago
Easy solution could be inclusion of Terry Rozier, but gaining a good draft pick could help Cavs move Iman Shumpert with that pick
From what I recall, he's basically like Jamie Collins with the Patriots - good athletic player who racks up nice stats, but too often is out of place and not where he should be, throwing off the teams' schemes.
Let's see. If the Celtics add Rozier,to the deal that puts the Cavs payroll for next year at 131M instead of 129M. So they would be roughly 12M over the 119M luxury tax threshhold. Since they paid tax the last two years, they are subject to the repeater tax. So, in addition to his 2M salary, Rozier would cost the Cavs roughly 8M in additional luxury tax.
The Cavs don't want a player added to the deal. They want a pick that they can bundle to help dump Shumpert's 10M salary. Or at least they should.
The Cavs don't want a player added to the deal. They want a pick that they can bundle to help dump Shumpert's 10M salary. Or at least they should.
All the time, twice in the last decade and a half in Boston alone. In the original Antoine Walker trade Raef Lafrentz's knee turned out to be in much worse shape than Boston was anticipating, but they assumed the risk because the deal got Boston beneath the luxury tax line and not only saved them a few million in payments, but moved them to the recipient part of the ledger when it paid a lot more (I think at the time we figured out here that the deal meant something like an extra $18 million for the owners after accounting for the insurance covered part of Lafrentz's contract).
A couple of years later they sold their mid lottery pick to the Trailblazers by sending Lafrentz to Portland in exchange for Theo Ratliff's insurance policy. But Ratliff had just had possible career ending back surgery at the time.
Oh, I see. So they just want the Celtics to pay full price for Irving - a package that no other team was going to match - and then, on top of that, throw in what is likely to be a half-season plus playoffs of an all-NBA scorer motivated to earn his next contract.
Seems fair, let's do it.
I believe EvilEmpire was asking if teams ever just waived the physical exam if a known serious injury was involved. In the Dallas trade, the Celtics did give LaFrentz a physical, which disclosed the knee problems. But Boston went ahead anyway for the reasons stated above. In the second trade, I don't think the Celtics even bothered with a physical, because all they cared about was Ratliff's contract. I don't think Portland examined LaFrentz either, because they got the 7th pick in the draft (Randy Foye) along with LaFrentz (and Dan Dickau). LOL, Ratliff actually hobbled through 4 NBA years after being waived by the Wolves following the Garnett trade. LaFrentz lasted 2 more years.
When the Thunder knew Jeff Green had a bad heart and didn't tell the Celtics about it in the trade the Celtics were given a 2nd round pick by the league.
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/thunder-to-send-second-round-pick-to-boston-to-settle-jeff-green-dispute/
A second rounder should be fine here then.
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/thunder-to-send-second-round-pick-to-boston-to-settle-jeff-green-dispute/
A second rounder should be fine here then.
But that was different, yes? Green's cardiologists withheld information from both teams, and it was not something that would be discovered in a routine physical. Both teams found out after the trade, not before. So I guess the finding was that the Thunder should have known, hence the pick.
How about the old player or pick to be named later with value commensurate to IT's value. If Thomas plays a certain percentage of the season Cleveland gets nothing. If he doesn't Cleveland get's something.
I generally like Steve Kyler (https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA) but he's insinuating that other teams that couldn't beat Boston's offer before will maybe now increase their offers if trade gets voided. If Boston is out, other's teams won't increase offer. If anything, they'd lower it.
Here's my based on nothing theory: LeBron lost his shit about this. LeBron, who only plans on staying for one more year, had absolutely no interest in any deal that involved not NBA stars right now. After the deal was completed--without clearing it with LeBron--LeBron through a crying screaming fit. He would much rather the Cavs trade Kyrie for Melo and some other now, but useless in 1-2 years talent, then actually try to build over time because, fuck it, he's not going to be there.
Danny needs to hold the line at no more than a second. We're not winning the title this years regardless, so if they won't play ball, fuck 'em, deal the pick to someone else mid-year. If IT4 is going to be pissed, that's his right, but that's no reason for us to go tits up to build a non-champion this year.
Danny needs to hold the line at no more than a second. We're not winning the title this years regardless, so if they won't play ball, fuck 'em, deal the pick to someone else mid-year. If IT4 is going to be pissed, that's his right, but that's no reason for us to go tits up to build a non-champion this year.
Also possible that Lebron was OK with the deal when he thought IT was just going to miss some time to start the year and figured he'd have a star player by the end of the season (plus whatever BKN is flipped for) and he's not OK with the deal if there's a legit question about whether IT will be available for the playoffs.
Which is why even though I agree with HRB's assessment of the value each piece of the trade brings to the Cavs long-term, I dont agree with him that this deal is a lock to go through.
If that's really the problem there's likely no way to fix the trade. Celtics, even if they were willing to slightly overpay for the "value" of a few months of play for IT in a vacuum, wont give up an asset that brings enough value to the Cavs this year to satisfy Lebron (would likely have to be something that could be flipped for a ST star rental i.e. Brown/Tatum/LAL).
But hard to say right now until we hear more from the Cavs.
Which is why even though I agree with HRB's assessment of the value each piece of the trade brings to the Cavs long-term, I dont agree with him that this deal is a lock to go through.
If that's really the problem there's likely no way to fix the trade. Celtics, even if they were willing to slightly overpay for the "value" of a few months of play for IT in a vacuum, wont give up an asset that brings enough value to the Cavs this year to satisfy Lebron (would likely have to be something that could be flipped for a ST star rental i.e. Brown/Tatum/LAL).
But hard to say right now until we hear more from the Cavs.
Exactly. Let's see the Celtics are out meaning less demand, so let's raise our offer? Just laughable
Is Kyrie going to sit out the season if he isn't traded? If not, the Cavs can console themselves with winning the Eastern Conference again. Once James is gone, they'll be able to earn their own lottery picks soon enough 
If this falls through, Cleveland is still going to have to trade him, but the offers will be worse. Think Melo.Is Kyrie going to sit out the season if he isn't traded? If not, the Cavs can console themselves with winning the Eastern Conference again. Once James is gone, they'll be able to earn their own lottery picks soon enough
It's going to be a strange year for that franchise. Odds-on favorites to make the finals, but heavy 'dogs to win it almost no matter what they do. Every move will be done under the shadow of Lebron's looming departure. He wants to bring in the best talent, while the FO wants to limit future money (this is why they favor the Celtics deal so much regardless of IT's situation). The latter will be clinging desperately to whatever draft pick(s) they end up getting for Kyrie, while the former will be trying to pawn it off asap because he dgaf about some rookie he'll never play with. Will be a blast.
Stop trying to make Ilan Shumpert happen. It's not going to happen.
They're trying to talk Lebron off the ledge because this trade is good for the franchise.
Jose, you are like the eighth poster to pull this theory out of your ass. I'm not sure why everyone seems to feel it's necessary to concoct this scenario where LBJ is this horrible controlling crybaby stomping his foot after Gilbert completed this trade without consulting him.
Occam's Razor is far more likely here: Cleveland believed Boston's portrayal of Thomas' hip matched up with the medicals they saw but not with the physical they gave him and they're now worried he may miss a significant portion of the season or re-injure himself.
I get that Cleveland may be overreaching a bit here but the idea that Lebron has turned into Joffrey Lannister is a bit tough to take.
Jackie Mac on ESPN saying the Cavs are likely calling other teams, etc.
Well, Irving is actually a member of the Celtics right now, so I really hope they aren't doing that. There is a rescission period, but it's a bit like the lemon law. Just because you can return a car you bought doesn't mean the dealership can sell it during that time.
Well, Irving is actually a member of the Celtics right now, so I really hope they aren't doing that. There is a rescission period, but it's a bit like the lemon law. Just because you can return a car you bought doesn't mean the dealership can sell it during that time.
Well, it depends on what they're calling about, yeah? The Cavs should be calling around to figure out if they can move Shumpert + a Boston 2nd round pick or whatever for a PG good enough to make them competitive.
Edit: I think what this comes down to is that the Cavs aren't willing to risk punting this season. If Thomas doesn't fully recover, gets re-injured or has to have surgery after all, they are done unless they shore up PG. Can't depend on Rose to carry them for a season, can they?
Um, yes?
But that's not what the reporter was saying they should be doing--they were talking about Kyrie. To be clear, I'm saying the reporter is uninformed in this case because what she was saying can't happen. In theory of course.
Oh. Ok. Couldn't tell that from your post. Sounds like a misunderstanding to me. Calling around because of the Kyrie deal rather than for a new Kyrie deal makes more sense. But it's the Cavaliers, so I guess you never know. If they are that stupid, things will work out great for Boston.
Just cuz I'm bored--there's no misunderstanding. The reporter was opining and not relaying what a source said. She was saying the Cavs "should be calling around and seeing what offers for Kyrie are out there." My only point is that her advice is that Cleveland should tamper with a player that is technically property of the Celtics...
Got it.
Setting that bit of media stupidity aside, the question was asked earlier why the Cavs were taking so long to make a move. Calling around to figure out PG options seems like a possibility. That could take some time. Might be a reason to talk to Boston about a deadline extension too.
Setting that bit of media stupidity aside, the question was asked earlier why the Cavs were taking so long to make a move. Calling around to figure out PG options seems like a possibility. That could take some time. Might be a reason to talk to Boston about a deadline extension too.
I keep seeing people say this, and I don't think it's a given that offers stay the same or decrease. PHX had probably the second best offer, and McDonough is rightfully gunshy on trades after getting fleeced for IT. His "best and final" for Kyrie may not have been the max he was willing to offer if he thought he was getting bluffed.
I'll equate it to buying a house in Boston right now (my previous PG/Butler example didn't quite work)... Homes are generally going for above asking, so you bid 2% above asking. You could afford 5%, but don't want to stretch yourself thin, and it's not the absolute perfect home for you family. You end up losing out to someone else who offers 5% above asking. Your wife is bummed out, as it would have been great, and your current apartment is too small and the lease is up soon. Incredibly, the winning bidders' financing falls through, so the house is back on the market. Do you offer just asking, 2% again, or knowing 5% gets it done offer that? You are Ryan McDonough.
I've had friends go through this exact scenario, and beat themselves up because they would have had a house if they had just offered $10k more. Again, I get most people's logic but I don't think it's a given, hence why I think Boston is at a disadvantage here. The BOS/IT relationship is irreparable if this falls through. I think there will be a tug of war in Clevelands FO though, as the BRK pick is so incredibly valuable.
Well Joffrey is quite a straw man. More like Littlefinger perhaps, and it's a consistent track record rather than sudden transformation
But you're right. It's pure speculation, just like many comments in the last half dozen or so pages. We are very much in the dark in terms of what was said during negotiations and what is happening now.
vicirus, if the Boston trade falls through, the Cavs still have to move Kyrie but one potential suitor who was prepared a hefty price is out of the bidding. This isn't exactly the same as buying a house - its not clear how badly the Suns' significant other wanted the house and now that its back on the market, they can either stand pat or even lower their offer in response to a smaller market for Irving's services. It would make no sense to increase the price when they don't have to - and its clear that Jackson was a bridge too far for them.
In any event, we will likely find out soon enough. I am not as confident as some that this will be remedied that easily.
The public nature of the concerns with the trade coupled with the Celtics sounding a hard line isn't a recipe for clean path to resolution. We know nothing of the particulars but it feels to me that after Cleveland's medical staff got a look at Thomas' condition, they told management things were more dire than they had expected. Altman/Gilbert then decided to put the Celtics publicly on notice that the package was going to have to be sweeter or they were walking. If the trade falls through, they can claim to be the aggrieved party, especially if Thomas is worse than we (and the league) was led to believe. They then re-auction Irving and can accept a lesser package, such as Melo, without much blowback. Meanwhile the Celtics will likely have to trade, at least, Crowder because he will request it and it will be hard to get value for him.
That is my speculation of how this might go unless the Celtics can find something that Cleveland will take as a sweetener.
In any event, we will likely find out soon enough. I am not as confident as some that this will be remedied that easily.
The public nature of the concerns with the trade coupled with the Celtics sounding a hard line isn't a recipe for clean path to resolution. We know nothing of the particulars but it feels to me that after Cleveland's medical staff got a look at Thomas' condition, they told management things were more dire than they had expected. Altman/Gilbert then decided to put the Celtics publicly on notice that the package was going to have to be sweeter or they were walking. If the trade falls through, they can claim to be the aggrieved party, especially if Thomas is worse than we (and the league) was led to believe. They then re-auction Irving and can accept a lesser package, such as Melo, without much blowback. Meanwhile the Celtics will likely have to trade, at least, Crowder because he will request it and it will be hard to get value for him.
That is my speculation of how this might go unless the Celtics can find something that Cleveland will take as a sweetener.
From that article:
So... I don't think disclosure of health information during the trade call precludes any sort of subsequent disagreement. Doctors have different opinions on things, something new could turn up on the physical, etc, but we can pretty much rule out the Celtics trying to pull a fast one, and the league would probably step in if the Cavs are trying to pull one.
John Karalis suggests that what is really playing out is internal dissension among the Cavs front office.
100% agree. This trade is about the future of the franchise not IT's hurt feelings. If the Cs decide to include more it should be because they value Irving that highly not because they are terrified by the prospect of having to face an angered IT. So can we stop the handwringing about how "impossible" the situation will be if this falls apart?
IT (and Crowder, for that matter) is a professional and he is about to go into the most important year of his career. He will suck it up and play hard because it's his future on the line if he doesn't. Either way, Ainge's focus needs to be 100% on what is best for the future of the franchise not how this might affect the one year chemistry of a team with a zero percent chance of winning a title.
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