I'm concluding that the players who benefitted from Watkins illegal sleuthing would not necessarily have known that the benefit came as a result of its illegal nature? His role allowed him to help break down the opposing team's signs so getting info from him was a normal thing to do? Or am I being naive here..?I don't get it yet. Presumably some players were in cahoots with Watkins. Do they have an agreement with the players association not to name the players?
Exactly what I was trying to suggest in my above reply, but was too incoherent to make clear..Seems like what happened was that the video guy did a bunch of legal video scouting, which included deciphering sign patterns. But then on occasion watched video in real time to see if their opponent was using the same patterns. If they were, he let a few players know what sign patterns they were using, so that when they got to second base, they could relay that to hitters.
The players may not have had any idea that the information given them was done in real time against the rules.
Is it common to have your advance scout tasked with decoding opposing catcher's signals also be your in-game video replay analyst? It's ridiculous to have such an employee sitting there knowing a key piece of information about the opposition during a game and then prohibit him from sharing it with the rest of the team he is paid to try to help win. Even Manfred acknowledged that this put Watkins in a tough position.Seems like what happened was that the video guy did a bunch of legal video scouting, which included deciphering sign patterns. But then on occasion watched video in real time to see if their opponent was using the same patterns. If they were, he let a few players know what sign patterns they were using, so that when they got to second base, they could relay that to hitters.
The players may not have had any idea that the information given them was done in real time against the rules.
Having the replay room next to the dugout manned by the same guy who decodes opposing team signals is tantamount to placing a physician in the clubhouse with syringes loaded with testosterone and then telling players that while the honor system applies, "only legitimate therapeutic use of steroids" are allowedIs it common to have your advance scout tasked with decoding opposing catcher's signals also be your in-game video replay analyst? It's ridiculous to have such an employee sitting there knowing a key piece of information about the opposition during a game and then prohibit him from sharing it with the rest of the team he is paid to try to help win. Even Manfred acknowledged that this put Watkins in a tough position.
I don't really know, that's the point, but clearly something was happening on both sides. What are the 'devices' Cora was talking about here?Jon-what do you think he was talking about?
Sure, but I don't care about any of that. I am curious as to what was actually going on but mostly I would like electronic communication between the catcher and pitcher ASAP so we can eliminate the ridiculous sign-stealing component (legal and not legal both) that slows down the game for no reason.Really? Take a wild guess.
Here's my wild guess. MLB never wanted to investigate anyone but had to. so they came down hard on the Astros and half-heartedly slapped the Sox on the wrist and want this to end there. If they came down hard on the Sox, there might be some complaints and more rumors/leaks, and then people might ask questions, as you did, or more specically, what special knowledge did Cashman want Beltran to impart to the Yankees. And they might want answers to those questions. MLB wanted to bury this ASAP.
Don't have a sub so I can't read the articles either, but should it be a surprise at all that the reporter(s) that broke the story in the first place have questions about a report that essentially says their big scoop was more or less a nothing burger?I see Rosenthal is tweeting that Evan Drellich says there are still “questions” about the report. Anyone with an Athletic subscription care to summaraize?
Questions from sportswriters, not MLB:I see Rosenthal is tweeting that Evan Drellich says there are still “questions” about the report. Anyone with an Athletic subscription care to summaraize?
Yup. Haters gonna hate. Some other fans will keep chirping but that's every sports story ever. Time to move on.View: https://twitter.com/JonHeyman/status/1253323350585180161?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
@JonHeyman "I keep seeing Red Sox got a slap on the wrist. How about considering this? Maybe that’s all they deserved."
Screw ‘em. The Sox rolled through a stop sign while Houston barreled down the sidewalk and ran down a family of four. We got a slap on the wrist because that’s all that was warranted.Yup. Haters gonna hate. Some other fans will keep chirping but that's every sports story ever. Time to move on.
Am I A conspiracy nut because I think it’s kind of funny how the one guy who got thrown under the bus as the ringleader in Houston just so happened to be the guy who wasn’t the there any longer? Especially now that he’s been cleared of any wrongdoing as far the Sox go?"Along with others" and "collective conduct" of the Astros.
Sounds like Alex thinks he's getting more blame for what down in Houston then he should have?
Honestly, if these folks cannot distinguish the difference between what Houston did and what happened in Boston, they are essentially unreachable. Faux outrage is hilarious in circumstances such as this.Questions from sportswriters, not MLB:
Why were comparable employees in the Astros and Red Sox organizations handled differently? (Hoston's Excel wizard Tom Koch-Weser received no suspension and remains employed by the team)
Why wouldn’t the manager and other staffers be aware of what was going on?
Why was Red Sox management not held responsible?
Why should the Red Sox be credited for attempting to instill a culture of compliance when the team’s players did not understand the rules?
Are Red Sox players and staff comfortable with Watkins taking all the heat?
How much responsibility should MLB bear for an environment that was conducive to cheating?
Yes, just outside my time window. 50 was enough for me. 3 all stars vs 2 doesn't really change the expected value much though.Great research, thanks for this. One question - wasn't Fred Lynn a second round draft pick?
This is exactly right. Even if they really want to bring back Cora, and actually intend to do so, there would only be downside if they said that, or even intimated that, now. It's possible that they have winked at Cora and he's sitting tight. I'm guessing it's an unstated understanding that they will deal with this later,The Sox brass has to walk a fine line. It's obvious that everyone likes Cora. They are probably disappointed that he involved himself in the shenanigans in Houston and as a result forced them to both deal with the PR fallout and also scramble to find a manager at the last minute. They don't want to do anything that undermines Roenicke, as he is basically taking one for team. They need to make sure Bloom is empowered to make his own decisions. All the while dealing with a very uncertain future for the season, while trying to be sensitive to the fact that there are a lot of people right now either battling the virus or struggling financially.
They statements that members of the ownership team make are going to be imperfect and incomplete. Parsing a single sentence out of a longer statement is unlikely to reveal anything useful at this point. "We'll see" is going to be the course for the foreseeable future.
I think Cora’s context was ridiculously high-scoring games for both teams. We were blaming the ballpark, air travel, tired pitchers, and Cora brought his own perspective. Those two games were not normal baseball.I don't really know, that's the point, but clearly something was happening on both sides. What are the 'devices' Cora was talking about here?
View: https://twitter.com/cloprestiwfan/status/1217430561079418882
There is no way that is what he was talking about, he was talking about a very specific kind of sign stealing involving 'devices' and he was frustrated because he believed that Beltran either got in the way of whatever Boston was doing, helped NY to do something themselves, or both.I think Cora’s context was ridiculously high-scoring games for both teams. We were blaming the ballpark, air travel, tired pitchers, and Cora brought his own perspective. Those two games were not normal baseball.
I prefer the title of this week's Effectively Wild podcast - Dirty Watkins. No someone just has to rewrite a few lyrics to close the loop.The biggest loss will be replay operator JT Watkins, I'm gonna miss that guy
Can we now call the the JT Watkins Affair?
These rules are confusing now and very team-specific, but NY lost a 2nd rounder and a 5th rounder for signing Cole. I believe you can't lose a first round pick anymore.At least - they didn't touch the 2021 picks. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the Red Sox were to go after Mookie Betts, assuming he's going to free agency in Novermber -- all it would cost them (besides the money) is their first round pick in 2021?
I thought that the signing team loses a 1st rounder but the old team doesn't get it, instead they get a sandwich pick. But now I'm confused because you're correct on the Yankees losing a 2nd and I can't see why that would be. It used to be top 15, right? Did it change to something to do with luxury cap and the Yankees reset?These rules are confusing now and very team-specific, but NY lost a 2nd rounder and a 5th rounder for signing Cole. I believe you can't lose a first round pick anymore.
https://legacy.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/cots/league-info/cba-history/I thought that the signing team loses a 1st rounder but the old team doesn't get it, instead they get a sandwich pick. But now I'm confused because you're correct on the Yankees losing a 2nd and I can't see why that would be. It used to be top 15, right? Did it change to something to do with luxury cap and the Yankees reset?
There is no way Ron Roenicke is the 2021 manager if the guy that recently won you 108 and a title is available. No way. "We'll talk about it down the road" is corporate PC code for "Absolutely, 100%"Interesting comments from Kennedy. Surprised they’re not taking an unconditional, “Ron is our Manager, period” stance. Even if they don’t really feel that way privately. Seems like the door is open for Cora to return in 2021. Although other than an apology tour, I’m not sure what “rehabilitation” means for something like this.
https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2020/04/alex-cora-red-sox-reunion-sam-kennedy-says-club-will-talk-about-it-down-the-road-when-asked-if-2021-return-is-possible-for-former-manager.html
I think so too. Unlike others, I do not think it was an innocuous, CYA, throw way comment. And Bloom took the GM job with presumably full understanding and acceptance of Cora being the manager, before any of this hit the fan. I don’t think ownership wanting to bring him back would represent an undercutting of his autonomy.There is no way Ron Roenicke is the 2021 manager if the guy that recently won you 108 and a title is available. No way. "We'll talk about it down the road" is corporate PC code for "Absolutely, 100%"