Murray is pretty freaking tough. Not a huge scorer, but he seems to do everything well.
Analysis of Celtics Games (2020-2021)
- Thread starter Imbricus
- Start date
It wasn't just Kemba. Some guy named Kelvin Johnson was getting whatever he wanted too. Aldridge hit several wide open 3Ps off PnRs in the 1st half. DMR was living in the lane too (plus he hit 2 3Ps).
SAS shot 70% on 2P FGs. Kemba wasn't good but the lack of defense was a group effort.
Yeah, this team is going to live or die depending on whether it can find a defensive identity and execute it.
The track record of Stevens' defenses suggests they'll figure it out, but it's been brutal for the most part this year.
Johnson has been a sneaky under the radar guy this year, not just last night. Classic Spurs pickup.
I'm getting a little bit frustrated with the player utilization. Last night seemed almost like watching junior rec league (everyone gets a few minutes). Look, I'm fully on board with the regular season not mattering that much. I don't really care that they lost. What I do care about is that I don't feel like we learned anything about who can do what on the team. You play 12 guys in the first half (including no Grant Williams), and then you run him out in the 2nd half?
I understand what Brad said in the post-game that there is not a lot of separation in the second half of the bench. Heck, I even agree with that. But, I don't think the answer is to play everybody for 5-10 minutes. They aren't going to get in a rhythm, and they aren't going to learn how to play well together and have chemistry.
With PP out, I think now is an opportune time to give Edwards or Javonte Green (I honestly don't really care which) a run of 5-6 games or so where they play 20 minutes a night. See whether they have what it takes to be able to contribute to the team. Remember, there is essentially no practice these days. So, the only development players get is essentially in games. If they don't do well? Fine, at least you learned something. If they do well, you've either found a piece for your rotation or transformed them into having some trade value. Don't misunderstand, I don't think we're trading Edwards for Beal. I'm just saying it'd be nice as Ainge is tinkering with the roster that some of these bench guys might have even a little value.
I'm also a bit frustrated as to how little playing time Rob Williams is getting. I know he's not perfect, and needs growth in his game, but he's only going to get that through playing time. His ceiling is so much higher than Tristan Thompson's. I just don't understand why he is 3rd on the depth chart.
I understand what Brad said in the post-game that there is not a lot of separation in the second half of the bench. Heck, I even agree with that. But, I don't think the answer is to play everybody for 5-10 minutes. They aren't going to get in a rhythm, and they aren't going to learn how to play well together and have chemistry.
With PP out, I think now is an opportune time to give Edwards or Javonte Green (I honestly don't really care which) a run of 5-6 games or so where they play 20 minutes a night. See whether they have what it takes to be able to contribute to the team. Remember, there is essentially no practice these days. So, the only development players get is essentially in games. If they don't do well? Fine, at least you learned something. If they do well, you've either found a piece for your rotation or transformed them into having some trade value. Don't misunderstand, I don't think we're trading Edwards for Beal. I'm just saying it'd be nice as Ainge is tinkering with the roster that some of these bench guys might have even a little value.
I'm also a bit frustrated as to how little playing time Rob Williams is getting. I know he's not perfect, and needs growth in his game, but he's only going to get that through playing time. His ceiling is so much higher than Tristan Thompson's. I just don't understand why he is 3rd on the depth chart.
Keldon Johnson was a top 10 recruit coming out of high school, IIRC, and looked like the best player on the floor on the McDonald's AA game. He had a decent, but disappointing year at Kentucky, but it was still strange that he slipped to #29 given his pedigree, decent production at an NBA factory, and positional value. I don't recall hearing any medical concerns and I think he was a really high character kid. Just another one of those "of course the Spurs get him" picks.
Keldon, he was at the top of my list for their picks in the 20s last year (meaning 2019). He's the guy we're hoping Nesmith becomes (not great lateral quickness, long arms, killer shooter, competes on D).
All losses are frustrating to some degree, so I get being PO'd. BUT last night was one of the few times we've seen the Celtics effectively play ZONE for a long stretch. That's worth a lot.
TL is dynamic, he and Theis will own most of the Center minutes with TT as the beef caddy by season's end.
Reminder: both TL and Tatum are coming back from 2-weeks of COVID/isolation/no gym, it may take them 2 weeks before they are fully back
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I'd also love to see them throw Tacko out there for a 4 minute stretch each game just to mess with the other team's plans.
Playing with rotations and combinations is exactly what Brad should be doing right now. The regular season is mostly meaningless this year; take the losses and learn in the process. Obviously, there's a fine line here, but this isn't the time to shorten rotations.
He should but Brad won't do it until 2 of 3 of the centers are out. Then he'll expect Tacko to be miraculously ready to play 15-20mins
I think we saw in the playoffs last year, and we even saw recently against SA, there's a lot of value in disrupting the other team's comfort by giving them a different look. Heck, that is probably one of the core components of Belichick's brilliance over the years. Of course, you have to be able to execute it yourself as well. So, you don't want to screw up your own team's ability to execute traditional man on man defense by running a zone out there for a bit. But, I think it would be a fun wrinkle to throw at them, especially since we have such an otherworldly shot blocker in Tacko. Just his sheer presence would mess with the heads of anyone thinking about driving to the basket.
Brad is smart to experiment with a zone more, and he saw first hand how much it killed our flow in the playoffs last year. If that coincidentally makes Tacko somewhat more playable as a result, that's lovely. But it's probably more about having a gimmick to stop runs (like against SAS the other night) and potentially hide weaker defenders for a few minutes.
I had the game on in the background last nite but wasn't able to watch closely until the fourth quarter. Time Lord's line would suggest he played well and was at least the Celtics' second-best center in this game.
Are the numbers deceiving, or was this a step forward for Rob Williams?
Are the numbers deceiving, or was this a step forward for Rob Williams?
He looked good. Still a work in progress on some level but mostly in the right place, not over jumping, using his length and athleticism to get blocks/steals/deflections, could switch out on the perimeter a few times without getting roasted. A step forward is probably the right description, the game thread was definitely happy with his play overall, some mistakes aside.
Yeah, he looked by far the best he has since coming back from covid. Brad seemed to think so as well, and was trying to match him up with AD whenever possible, and also play him some with Theis.
He played quite a bit with Theis, I don’t recall seeing that much before last night. LA is so big, so I can understand the 2big lineup against them. Theis is also playing pretty well offensively lately, so he pretty much has to play significant minutes.
Overall, I think RW is playing very well. He was rebounding well, getting some good blocks, and playing well as a rim runner. The Celtics need somebody who can catch a pass and dunk it to keep the shot blockers at home a bit. You can see quite a difference sometimes when he is on the floor in how the other team defends
Overall, I think RW is playing very well. He was rebounding well, getting some good blocks, and playing well as a rim runner. The Celtics need somebody who can catch a pass and dunk it to keep the shot blockers at home a bit. You can see quite a difference sometimes when he is on the floor in how the other team defends
Yeah, we've talked about the various paths for the Celtics to build around the Jays, and TL getting good is definitely one of them.
I think the most encouraging thing about TimeLord is that his mistakes are largely mental and will largely come with playing more minutes. Every game, he undoes one of his best plays by following it up with an overly aggressive bonehead pass - the sort of thing that would be awesome to try in practice or on the playground, but which is overly aggressive for an actual NBA game.
It's a super fine line. For every amazing behind-the-back toss by Tatum to a streaking TimeLord for a dunk, you run the risk of that pass going awry, into the other team's hands, and giving up a four-point swing. Tatum and Brown are ahead of TimeLord just by being way more polished players with way more coaching and minutes along the way (is my impression), but there are times when it looks like he might have something approximating their raw talent.
It's a super fine line. For every amazing behind-the-back toss by Tatum to a streaking TimeLord for a dunk, you run the risk of that pass going awry, into the other team's hands, and giving up a four-point swing. Tatum and Brown are ahead of TimeLord just by being way more polished players with way more coaching and minutes along the way (is my impression), but there are times when it looks like he might have something approximating their raw talent.
From memory, the first time I remember DT and TL playing together was a couple of games ago. I think it makes more sense than DT and TT since DT and TL are more hybrid 4/5s and that gives them a bit more flexibility I think.
TL played well enough that if the Cs weren't contenders, he's be getting a lot of minutes. The positive side people have noted above. On the negative side, he had a boneheaded pass off a rebound that lead directly to 2 points and another time where he tipped the ball into the bucket for 2 points. (Side note: the Cs keep giving away buckets to the other team in the last two games. Let's hope that stops).
Biggest issue is that he had 4 fouls in 18+ minutes. He's got to keep his fouls down.
Damn shame we aren’t able to see Romeo in these games. Eager to see his D back out there, though I fear it’ll be another offseason before there’s a chance for real offensive improvement to take place given the nature of his injury and stunted offseason.
With his current skillset geared toward PnR situations he is going to have very limited opportunities on that end of the floor unless his shot has taken an improbable Leap forward. Theoretically, a rangy ballhandler who can penetrate a bit and play solid D would have a role in lineups with the Jays but he’s likely to be relegated to standing in the corner given he will be 3rd or 4th in line for ball handling duties in most lineups.
Wondering if they will look to establish value there and see if he can be moved in a package of some kind. Without a 3pt shot I’m just not sold on the two-way fit. But I like the player and hope he is given every opportunity. Given the struggles on D, he should be.
With his current skillset geared toward PnR situations he is going to have very limited opportunities on that end of the floor unless his shot has taken an improbable Leap forward. Theoretically, a rangy ballhandler who can penetrate a bit and play solid D would have a role in lineups with the Jays but he’s likely to be relegated to standing in the corner given he will be 3rd or 4th in line for ball handling duties in most lineups.
Wondering if they will look to establish value there and see if he can be moved in a package of some kind. Without a 3pt shot I’m just not sold on the two-way fit. But I like the player and hope he is given every opportunity. Given the struggles on D, he should be.
Taped the game and watched the second half this morning. Any win is a good win at this point, but the C's were characteristically shaky down the stretch.
The TNT crew said late in the game that the C's had scored the third-fewest fourth-quarter points of any NBA team, and it was easy to see why. The late-game execution is, in general, horrible.
The TNT crew said late in the game that the C's had scored the third-fewest fourth-quarter points of any NBA team, and it was easy to see why. The late-game execution is, in general, horrible.
Yeah, they need to work Kemba back in and figure out what the plan is down the stretch.
It's important to keep a bit of perspective: a lot of good teams that played deep last year are having even worse issues than the Celtics are. This season is weird overall.
Things that don't concern me sooo much so far:
- defensive execution. Stevens' track record is really, really good here regardless of personnel, so I imagine they'll figure it out.
- end of game offensive execution. They have enough offensive talent in the closing lineup to sort this part out. When fastpp comes back, I'd be interested in seeing him closing, either in lineups where you remove one of Kemba/Smart, or go super-small with Brown/Tatum at the 4/5 (in the right matchup).
Things that concern me a lot going forward:
- Kemba's health/performance
- The need for a 3&D big-ish wing
I think this is vastly underrated.
I keep scratching my head with the Celtics defense, it's not even the normal culprits. Tatum's defense has been ho-hum. Brown and Smart have been bad defensively. Grant has been awful defensively. TL goes from great to confused on a nightly basis
I can't think of a player, on this team, that has played up to their defensive capability.
Oddly enough, I thought that Kemba was pretty good on defense last night. Super active and generally in the right place.
And please explain to me why we don't see more Green. My eyeballs tell me that his defense is as good as anyone we have right now except maybe Theis.
And please explain to me why we don't see more Green. My eyeballs tell me that his defense is as good as anyone we have right now except maybe Theis.
He played 20 minutes last night, and he's about useless in a half court offense. And I remember a couple times he just lost Curry, which of course is easy to do.
I thought Kemba was pretty good - particularly for him - too. At least he bothered Curry - Steph seemed to be shooting practice jumpers when Kemba wasn't guarding him.
As for Green, it would be great if he could contribute something on offense. That lineup last night with Teague, JT, Green, and I think Semi and TT - I don't know why Brad puts out lineups with only one scorer. I guess he doesn't have a ton of choice right now but that lineup was super easy to guard.
TL plays like a passenger, and he needs to play like the driver (if that makes any sense).
I don’t think he has the personality to do so, but if he ever stepped on the court thinking “I can out run, out quick, and out jump every one they put on me, and I’m gonna show out tonight,” he would be a worthy piece to build around the Jays.
TL desperately needs some KG DNA. He showed in small doses against Toronto in the playoffs how he can dominate a game at both ends. I’m a big TL fan, but him not being the dominant big that he can be is extremely frustrating
I don’t think he has the personality to do so, but if he ever stepped on the court thinking “I can out run, out quick, and out jump every one they put on me, and I’m gonna show out tonight,” he would be a worthy piece to build around the Jays.
TL desperately needs some KG DNA. He showed in small doses against Toronto in the playoffs how he can dominate a game at both ends. I’m a big TL fan, but him not being the dominant big that he can be is extremely frustrating
For 5 minutes until he runs out of stamina.
Unfortunatey, he appears to be a sprinter, not a marathon runner.
Agreed. I'd much rather see Nesmith out there with that group than Green.
Well, our typical closing shot is that, except replace pass around the perimeter with stand there and dribble it.
Brad really needs to formulate a few offensive set plays against the 2-3 zone. Passing around the perimeter plays right into the hands of the zone.
Sticking TimeLord/Theis at the FT line would be a good start. Just need a paint touch to draw the defense, then TL/DT can kick to a step in 3-pointer for Kemba/JB/JT/Grant or Semi
btw GW is up to 47% on 3s this season and 42% over his last 82 games (incl playoffs). Stroke/pocket looks compact/consistent and confidence is growing (although the step-back 3 off the dribble needs to end)
Sticking TimeLord/Theis at the FT line would be a good start. Just need a paint touch to draw the defense, then TL/DT can kick to a step in 3-pointer for Kemba/JB/JT/Grant or Semi
btw GW is up to 47% on 3s this season and 42% over his last 82 games (incl playoffs). Stroke/pocket looks compact/consistent and confidence is growing (although the step-back 3 off the dribble needs to end)
The Celtics struggle at the end of games and go into scoring slumps because they are not moving the ball or the players enough. They are in the bottom three in the league in assists per game and it hurts them when a team goes zone because it takes away the isolation game that they rely on. Tatum and Brown are so good that they make it work but I think Brad needs to get some more movement going on the offensive end.
I agree, it was striking in the playoffs how limited the Cs were against the zone, and against zone-adjacent tight D schemes to close out games. They need some new approaches to create space, and they need to pass the ball more. They fall into a lot of one-on-one and perimeter-based stuff late and it's not good.
Grant's 3pt shooting is a very positive trend. We need the rest of his game to pick back up too---I just don't know what the defensive fit is given they have three other bigs. If he could handle the 3 defensively it would address the longstanding rotation gap, but I'm not super optimistic yet.
Grant's 3pt shooting is a very positive trend. We need the rest of his game to pick back up too---I just don't know what the defensive fit is given they have three other bigs. If he could handle the 3 defensively it would address the longstanding rotation gap, but I'm not super optimistic yet.
Yeah I'd rather see Nesmith out there too for development reasons, but I'm glad to see Green running around playing high effort defense bothering shots and jumping passing lanes. I suppose that it's not worth what he gives back on offense, but good teams can drop a dozen in a hurry when our defense is fluttering around like drunk butterflies. Getting tired of watching that play out. Speaking of tired, Teague looks like the old guy at the Y.
This is what was killing them in the playoffs. The offense stopped. I am pinning my hopes on Pritchard to have the ball in those situations and not look to shoot first.
Grant from last year could guard the 3. I’m cautiously optimistic that that guy is still there, once he gets over his current mental/confidence issues.
I think that's iffy----he was mostly a big last year and surprisingly effective defensively. But I'm not sure we have a ton of data he was good at the 3 last year either---or are you suggesting you think he would have been even if it wasn't a primary role? That's not unreasonable, though I perhaps worry more about the quickness than you do (acknowledging, as discussed above, that smarts, positioning, anticipation can help there and he will likely prove above average at all of those)
I'm a broken record with this at this point since we drafted him, but I really think he needs to drop about 25 pounds in order to sacrifice some strength for quickness for just this reason. He's a tweener regardless, but due to his lack of length, I see more value in him as a guy who can credibly guard 3s and 4s than as one who takes on 4s and 5s. He'll be match-up dependent either way, but essentially I'd rather him be roastable by 5s and big 4s than 3s. He's not going to grow at this point, but he has bulk to spare, and if he lost some of it, I'm interested to see how much he could improve his foot speed.
I agree--I understand the "PJ Tucker" archteype for being a big at his size, but I think Tucker is such an outlier it is much more likely that Grant succeeds in the way you describe. The passing, emerging 3Pt shooting, smarts and versatility at both ends (credible in the paint at both ends, can rebound, smart, strong core) are really useful off the bench if you pick up a half-step on the perimeter as a 3 or vs stretch 4s.
Not sure he can, or if team agrees, but I think worth a shot. Interesting that the TT signing makes more sense if the above is indeed the plan this year
The danger there is he loses 25 lbs, still isn't quick enough to guard 3s and 4s, and now isn't strong enough to guard 4s and 5s. And I'm not going to delve deep into this conversation, but if he could just drop 25 lbs, he probably already would have.
I do wonder if Grant has been working on his shooting so much to the detriment of the rest of his game.
I have very little doubt he could. He did it before, then bulked up for the NBA. The "should he" question is much more interesting and relevant to me.
https://theathletic.com/1647749/2020/03/02/how-rick-barnes-fat-camp-prepared-grant-williams-for-the-nba/#:~:text=But by the end of,bounce when he needs it.
Barnes took off with the buttery feast, while Williams continued to run the weight away. But by the end of his first summer in Fat Camp, he had lost 30 lbs. And moving like never before. Williams has bulked back up to 245 lbs. now that he is in the NBA, but says he still can get that bounce when he needs it.
“Oooh, I was athletic at 225. I was jumping out the gym!”
Anway, if the danger you cite plays out, obviously no bueno, but my hope is that if he came in at 225-230 next season he'd be strong enough to still handle some post work but significantly better on the perimeter, making him the versatile guy he's sold as instead of just a short but heady PF who's value will always be capped. Down low he has very good recognition, rotates really well, uses his chest to keep guys out, and does a good job of staying vertical, but the strength is an important part of his game there, so it's a risk for sure.
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IIRC, BOS had a least one very good game against MIA's zone. I don't think the issue is that they don't know how to play through it; I'm not exactly sure what the issue is - loss of focus? Trying to do too much?
Well, BOS also struggle at the end of games because teams lock on defense and the best way to attack this defense is having a top-flight creator break down the defense and create either for themselves or others. For BOS, while both JB or JT can create for themselves, neither - as of right now - are top-flight creators for others. (And we've discussed KW ad nauseum.)
You can see this time and time again. And it's good to know that they'll get better at closing as they keep growing.
I guess it might be better to be an undersized 5 than an athletic wing without a 3 point shot. Maybe?
If he was athletic enough to keep up with 3's and 4s at 225, whose idea was it for him to bulk up for the NBA? Seems very short sighted and like the wrong decision given lots of players add the 3 point shot to their game and he's a good FT shooter.
If he was athletic enough to keep up with 3's and 4s at 225, whose idea was it for him to bulk up for the NBA? Seems very short sighted and like the wrong decision given lots of players add the 3 point shot to their game and he's a good FT shooter.
Do you really believe that? I mean he played the majority of his minutes with either Kanter, Theis, TL.
basketball ref had him playing Center 6% of the time
Brad is using him the same way this season.
His wing defense has been inconsistent this season, but the Celtics defense has stunk on whole. I think its more of a SSS/COVID/deep playoff rest thing more than anything else.
Doesn't every team struggle to score at the end of games? That is when defenses really focus and clamp down. And teams have also just seen the actions you like to run for the past 45 minutes