Brian Flores suing NFL, Giants over "sham" Rooney rule - "mistakenly" (?) sent Belichick text may be linchpin

BroodsSexton

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This complaint is straight gas. He’s turned the Gruden complaint on its head, among other things. He’s also being represented by Wigdor, one of the most notorious plaintiff employment firms in the country. Love that he calls the NFL out for "pandering" in response to Black Lives Matter. It's always been a major point of cognitive dissonance for me that the NFL went from "all players must stand for the anthem" to social justice messages on the back of the helmets--overnight.

It is really also difficult to square their public admissions that they have a race problem in hiring, with the notion that they don't have a race problem in hiring.
 
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sodenj5 said:
They also interviewed Leslie Frazier twice and Patrick Graham once for the HC position. I don’t know if his “sham interview” to appease the Rooney Rule really holds much water here.
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I thought this too, and looked into it. In 2019 the Rooney Rule was modified for head coaches - teams have to interview two minority candidates from outside the organization. So Graham wouldn't count towards the rule - they would need both Frazier and Flores (or another candidate).
 
BroodsSexton

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One question I have is whether the NFL can be held responsible for the hiring and firing decisions of its clubs. I don't know enough about the structure of the league or the legal theories to have an opinion on that. But man, this kind of stuff seems like very obvious disparate impact:

Paragraph 112:
Moreover, since 1978, only 16 winning teams have fired their head coach (3%). Even though Black men only held a small fraction of the Head Coach positions during that time, an astounding 25% (four of the 16) of the Head Coaches fired after a winning season were Black. This statistic is even more remarkable given that there have only ever been 17 Black Head Coaches who have coached a full season, and four of them (23.5%) were fired after a winning season. In contrast, only 6.9% of white coaches were fired after a winning season (12 out of 174). Thus, Black Head Coaches are 3.5 times more likely to be fired even when successful.
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Mystic Merlin

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BroodsSexton said:
This complaint is straight gas. He’s turned the Gruden complaint on its head, among other things. He’s also being represented by Wigdor, one of the most notorious plaintiff employment firms in the country. Love that he calls the NFL out for "pandering" in response to Black Lives Matter. It's always been a major point of cognitive dissonance for me that the NFL went from "all players must stand for the anthem" to social justice messages on the back of the helmets--overnight.

It is really also difficult to square their public admissions that they have a race problem in hiring, with the notion that they don't have a race problem in hiring.
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Ding ding

‘We need to do better but no individual can prove discrimination/these complaints detract from the energy that should be spent on REAL discrimination’ is the bread and butter of the NFL’s defense.
 
j44thor

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Super Nomario said:
Belichick mentions he heard from Buffalo. That's a pretty clear indication he thinks he's talking with Daboll.
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I read this the opposite way, why would he say to Daboll he heard from BUF, which is where Daboll currently works. I think he misinterpreted which Brian NYG were going to hire and texted Flores intentionally but with wrong information. I don't think he'd want to be the one to break it to Daboll that Buf told him NYG were going to hire him.
 
Omar's Wacky Neighbor

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Mystic Merlin said:
People do this all time in the NFL. It’s meant as a term of respect. For example, how many times has Cowher been called anything but ‘Coach’ on the CBS pregame show?
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It goes all the way down to the rec level. Even among friends, it's often out of respect, often when a serious or game changing situation is at hand. My wife thought it was the most ridiculous thing that she'd ever heard.

Aside: my first ref class was me, our son, and about 30 12-16 y/o taking the USSF grade 9 class taught by world class ref Mark Geiger. Every time that he addressed me, he addressed me as Coach. So I got that going for me......
 
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Ralphwiggum said:
In terms of whether or not Flores nuked his career here, the owners only give a shit about the league's reputation insofar as it impacts their individual franchise or TV ratings. This isn't going to impact TV ratings even a little. None of them outside of Ross and Mara care about the Dolphins or Giants taking a hit here and none of them are going to hire Flores because they want to make the league look less racist.
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I mostly agree with this, but there's one distinction that is meaningful. The league owners don't merely care about TV ratings, they care about TV revenue. While Flo's line in the sand won't reasonably lead to a viewer boycott or anything that'd turn up in Nielsen, I certainly could see a grassroots campaign having an effect on Pepsi or whatever in their sponsorships. And that's money, and the owners care about that.
 
BroodsSexton

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In Belichick's postseason press conference he was very effusive calling out various individual players' contributions to social and racial justice. It stuck out to me, particularly given some of the inscrutability of Belichick (and Brady) during the Trump years. If Belichick did set this up--because he recognized that what Flores was going through was bullshit--then damn, he is every bit the master strategist we all think he is.
 
cshea

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j44thor said:
I read this the opposite way, why would he say to Daboll he heard from BUF, which is where Daboll currently works. I think he misinterpreted which Brian NYG were going to hire and texted Flores intentionally but with wrong information. I don't think he'd want to be the one to break it to Daboll that Buf told him NYG were going to hire him.
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Why would the Bills be confirming Flores’ hire with NYG? That doesn’t make sense.

I think he had good info but texted the wrong Brian. He probably opened a text box, typed ‘Brian” and then fat fingered or inadvertently selected the wrong Brian. No idea how many Brian’s are in his contact list, but there’s a good chance Daboll and Flores would be very close together, if not back to back.
 
Cellar-Door

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BroodsSexton said:
One question I have is whether the NFL can be held responsible for the hiring and firing decisions of its clubs. I don't know enough about the structure of the league or the legal theories to have an opinion on that. But man, this kind of stuff seems like very obvious disparate impact:

Paragraph 112:
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One of the reasons it is a class action attempt is likely to draw other coaches into the class, and use any evidence they have (plus discovery obviously) to show that the league has a widespread pattern of disparate treatment, and that they implemented the Rooney rule with no intent of really enforcing it, to cover it up. It's like if you have the required EEO office but just throw all the reports and complaints in the trash. The league enacted the Rooney Rule, which tells me that the league has agreed that they have a significant level of control over the hiring decisions of the clubs in terms of process at the very least.
 
SMU_Sox

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I just want to take a second to highlight the Senior Bowl, Jim Nagy, and what they are doing this year. The lack of black head coaches bothers me a lot. This year the Senior Bowl had a combine for 40 HBCU athletes. On top of that they are doing a fellowship program and during this week 4 HBCU coaches are joining the coaching staffs of the Lions and Jets. They get to network and show off their coaching chops with NFL coaching staffs. Thank you, Jim Nagy, and thank you Senior Bowl!
 
luckiestman

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BroodsSexton said:
If Belichick did set this up--because he recognized that what Flores was going through was bullshit--then damn, he is every bit the master strategist we all think he is.
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Alright you got me, I love conspiracy theories. Really hope this is true
 
RedOctober3829

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cshea said:
It has to be Brady. Flores was in New England in some capacity for 15 years of Brady's career. What other prominent QB would Flores have a connection too and be in a position to tamper?
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The thing is that he probably didn’t even need Flores to talk to Brady. Given the Michigan connections, Brady and Ross could’ve met and said they were discussing how to give back to the program or something.
 
Super Nomario

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j44thor said:
I read this the opposite way, why would he say to Daboll he heard from BUF, which is where Daboll currently works. I think he misinterpreted which Brian NYG were going to hire and texted Flores intentionally but with wrong information. I don't think he'd want to be the one to break it to Daboll that Buf told him NYG were going to hire him.
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Why would Buffalo know anything about Flores being hired? It doesn't make any sense.

The reason Buffalo makes sense in the other interpretation is Belichick is texting Daboll with the understanding that people with both the Bills and Giants already know that Daboll is the guy. He's not "breaking it" to Daboll; Daboll knows, the Giants know, and Daboll has already told some in the Bills organization. That's why Belichick is so taken aback when the person he thinks is Daboll has no idea what he's talking about.
 
DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Super Nomario said:
Why would Buffalo know anything about Flores being hired? It doesn't make any sense.

The reason Buffalo makes sense in the other interpretation is Belichick is texting Daboll with the understanding that people with both the Bills and Giants already know that Daboll is the guy. He's not "breaking it" to Daboll; Daboll knows, the Giants know, and Daboll has already told some in the Bills organization. That's why Belichick is so taken aback when the person he thinks is Daboll has no idea what he's talking about.
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Yeah, that would make sense. Bill's first text assumed that the person he thought he was talking to already knew that he was hired. And Bill would have thought that if he heard it from the Bills because they would have found out from Daboll, telling them to prepare for his departure.

Man, Flo must have been devastated to get that text. What a way to find out.

I'm not a conspiracy guy and Occam's razor suggests that it is just what it appears on its face to be -- Bill texted the wrong Brian. But what are the odds? If it was a fuck up it's some fuck up. Hall of fame fuck up.
 
cornwalls@6

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Super Nomario said:
Why would Buffalo know anything about Flores being hired? It doesn't make any sense.

The reason Buffalo makes sense in the other interpretation is Belichick is texting Daboll with the understanding that people with both the Bills and Giants already know that Daboll is the guy. He's not "breaking it" to Daboll; Daboll knows, the Giants know, and Daboll has already told some in the Bills organization. That's why Belichick is so taken aback when the person he thinks is Daboll has no idea what he's talking about.
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I think this is exactly right. Bill heard Daboll has got the job, assumes Daboll has already heard this, and was simply texting to congratulate him. Other than the old guy trying to text jokes, he seems to be a peripheral player in this, at least in terms of the meat of the suit. Although he certainly has some egg on his face, and probably isn't thrilled that what he thought was a private text exchange is now very public evidence.
 
E5 Yaz

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DennyDoyle'sBoil said:
I'm not a conspiracy guy and Occam's razor suggests that it is just what it appears on its face to be -- Bill texted the wrong Brian. But what are the odds? If it was a fuck up it's some fuck up. Hall of fame fuck up.
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Between this and Belichick not getting name-dropped during Brady's retirement announcement, it hasn't been Bill's best day in regards to social media
 
DennyDoyle'sBoil

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cornwalls@6 said:
I think this is exactly right. Bill heard Daboll has got the job, assumes Daboll has already heard this, and was simply texting to congratulate him. Other than the old guy trying to text jokes, he seems to be a peripheral player in this, at least in terms of the meat of the suit. Although he certainly has some egg on his face, and probably isn't thrilled that what he thought was a private text exchange is now very public evidence.
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Perhaps a peripheral player in the underlying facts but a very central player in the litigation. He is the star witness. His quote is literally the first words in the complaint. In bold font no less.

He is going to have to answer what he heard, who he heard from, what exactly they said, etc. I think a significant issue in the case also is likely to be whether that would be the kind of thing that Bill Belichick would get wrong.

The Giants and league will have to say that Bill was misinformed or confused or perhaps did not fully understand what he heard. So if you're the plaintiff you combat that by showing that if Bill Belichick hears something to the point where he's comfortable texting someone to say "congratulations," you can take it to the bank.
 
Oil Can Dan

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How the fuck can the NFL be sure after TWO HOURS that his claims are "without merit"?

Such frauds. I hope a bunch of other coaches join his efforts and blow them all up.
 
Cellar-Door

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DennyDoyle'sBoil said:
Perhaps a peripheral player in the underlying facts but a very central player in the litigation. He is the star witness. His quote is literally the first words in the complaint. In bold font no less.

He is going to have to answer what he heard, who he heard from, what exactly they said, etc. I think a significant issue in the case also is likely to be whether that would be the kind of thing that Bill Belichick would get wrong.

The Giants and league will have to say that Bill was misinformed or confused or perhaps did not fully understand what he heard. So if you're the plaintiff you combat that by showing that if Bill Belichick hears something to the point where he's comfortable texting someone to say "congratulations," you can take it to the bank.
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I would LOVE to see the text messages and emails NFL guys send each other. From the WFT case we know these guys are not real smart about what kinda things you don't put in writing at work. Decent chance Bill got texts saying "Daboll got the offer" from people inside both organizations.
 
Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Jinhocho said:
Kap was largely toast when he took his stand (arguably). I think (arguably) Flores was clearly on the way up and not down in his career. It is also fair to say a young NFL Coach is a lot more of a fungible resource than a upper level NFL QB.
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All true. I'm very cynical about the NFL but maybe they'll surprise me on this one. I certainly hope so.
 
DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Cellar-Door said:
I would LOVE to see the text messages and emails NFL guys send each other. From the WFT case we know these guys are not real smart about what kinda things you don't put in writing at work. Decent chance Bill got texts saying "Daboll got the offer" from people inside both organizations.
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One of the first things you want to know if you're the lawyers for Flo is whether or not Bill actually also texted the right Brian. And you want those texts.

Who knows if Daboll is an honorable guy or not but it's hard to imagine that he is going to throw his new employer under the bus and say that he knew about the hire before Flores was interviewed. His texts and emails are another story, though.

Then again the texts actually could hurt. If Bill texted Daboll to say contrats and Daboll responded with something like, "thanks coach, I think I'm in good shape but the Giants are still in the middle of their process," it would not be helpful.
 
8slim

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Why would Flores have the slightest interest in being a DC for the Raiders? He was a head coach who many felt was on a fast track to landing another head gig. This suit, among many other things, is about Flores having no interest in playing the game of “working his way back” to a head coaching job.
 
luckiestman

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Daboll was on Kay’s show yesterday or the day before (I listened yesterday) and they asked him directly if BB texted or called him. Daboll did not answer directly.
 
DennyDoyle'sBoil

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luckiestman said:
Daboll was on Kay’s show yesterday or the day before (I listened yesterday) and they asked him directly if BB texted or called him. Daboll did not answer directly.
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"He didn't and I was a little hurt, actually. But then I found out that he actually did try but he sent it to the wrong guy and I felt better. Except now I have been subpoenaed for my phone records. It's a mixed bag really."
 
E5 Yaz

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Rapsheet ID's the QB that was the target of alleged Miami as Brady

The lawsuit alleged that Ross then pressured Flores to recruit a prominent quarterback -- whom NFL Network Insider Ian Rapoport identified as Tom Brady -- in violation of the league's tampering rules. When Flores refused, the suit alleges that "Flores was ostracized and ultimately he was fired."
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Story also rounds up the reaction from NYG, Miami and Denver ... and the suit saying Elway showed up hungover for the interview

https://www.nfl.com/news/former-dolphins-head-coach-brian-flores-sues-nfl-three-teams-alleging-racist-hir
 
cornwalls@6

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DennyDoyle'sBoil said:
Perhaps a peripheral player in the underlying facts but a very central player in the litigation. He is the star witness. His quote is literally the first words in the complaint. In bold font no less.

He is going to have to answer what he heard, who he heard from, what exactly they said, etc. I think a significant issue in the case also is likely to be whether that would be the kind of thing that Bill Belichick would get wrong.

The Giants and league will have to say that Bill was misinformed or confused or perhaps did not fully understand what he heard. So if you're the plaintiff you combat that by showing that if Bill Belichick hears something to the point where he's comfortable texting someone to say "congratulations," you can take it to the bank.
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Yes, the bolded was what I meant, but didn't articulate very clearly. He's not, it seems at least, in any way relevant to the larger issue of the failure/sham that the Rooney rule is. But, yes, his texts certainly are the catalyst for the suit, and he will be one of the most important, central witnesses in this.
 
luckiestman

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DennyDoyle'sBoil said:
"He didn't and I was a little hurt, actually. But then I found out that he actually did try but he sent it to the wrong guy and I felt better. Except now I have been subpoenaed for my phone records. It's a mixed bag really."
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This reads as 100% accurate
 
MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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Super Nomario said:
Why would Buffalo know anything about Flores being hired? It doesn't make any sense.

The reason Buffalo makes sense in the other interpretation is Belichick is texting Daboll with the understanding that people with both the Bills and Giants already know that Daboll is the guy. He's not "breaking it" to Daboll; Daboll knows, the Giants know, and Daboll has already told some in the Bills organization. That's why Belichick is so taken aback when the person he thinks is Daboll has no idea what he's talking about.
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This is what I think, but I’m warming to it all being a put on to create evidence.
 
soxhop411

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bosockboy said:
And old white billionaires have generally never followed rules or had any consideration for race or equality in the businesses that made them billionaires. People generally don’t change.
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Exactly. The fact that the NFL needed to institute a damn rule to “require” teams to interview minority candidates is damming enough. Why would you need such a rule if the League truly cared about diversity? The fact that it’s a rule that’s never been enforced is also damming. Teams have been interviewing minority candidates in order to just satisfy the rule even though they had no intention of hiring said minority candidate and the nfl hasn’t given a shit that the rule is a sham.
 
DennyDoyle'sBoil

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scott bankheadcase said:
Peter King agrees:

View: https://mobile.twitter.com/peter_king/status/1488643519539552262
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It is possible that before filing suit plaintiffs sent a settlement demand or something like it to the league. Defendants often know they are going to be sued well before they actually get sued, and they may even look into the claims. Also, this is not a situation in which the clubs are being sued and the NFL is merely commenting on the suit. They have actually been sued. It's pretty usual for someone who has been sued to say "we're looking into the claims to see if they have merit." This is what you say when you get sued.

All that said, if the NFL were aware that there was video of a meeting at Dolphins headquarters with the executives saying "fire him because he is black," they probably would have put out the same statement.
 
luckiestman

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bosockboy said:
And old white billionaires have generally never followed rules or had any consideration for race or equality in the businesses that made them billionaires. People generally don’t change.
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Which owners/teams have not had a black HC recently? This is what I can think of for AFC


Pats
Bills
Ravens
Titans
Jags


edited to take out KC.
 
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