100%. Offensive play calling and defensive scheme would accomplish that quite well. Heck, we had people here opining that the Jets threw that game earlier in the year when they got torched for a bomb at the end. That was all on scheme.
Brian Flores suing NFL, Giants over "sham" Rooney rule - "mistakenly" (?) sent Belichick text may be linchpin
- Thread starter bsj
- Start date
I agree. It may not be 100% foolproof but there are also a million in-game decisions a coach can make that can decrease the opportunity for a win in the margins (challenges, timeouts, how aggressive or conservative to play on 3rd and 4th down, how much to blitz and in what situations, etc.). We see this shit each and every week in the NFL and we chalk it up to stupid coaching. Of course over time it would reflect incredibly poorly on the coach, which is why a 40 year old rookie HC who wants to coach in the league for a long time would be crazy to agree to it.
Haslam's pretty high up on my list of "Owners who will be forced to sell the team someday"
Players aren't calling the plays, managing the clock, deciding whether to punt on 4th and short, two point conversion vs extra point, etc...
Doug Pederson putting in his third string QB when they were down 3 at the beginning of the fourth quarter a few years back is a pretty clear example of tanking.
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/news/doug-pederson-tanking-nate-sudfeld-jalen-hurts/15x1iguqocqq914jye7ss8skqc#:~:text=The Eagles were accused of,in determining the NFL Playoffs.
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/news/doug-pederson-tanking-nate-sudfeld-jalen-hurts/15x1iguqocqq914jye7ss8skqc#:~:text=The Eagles were accused of,in determining the NFL Playoffs.
Well the coaches aren't supposed to do it overtly. A small decision here and there can swing a game pretty easily without anyone knowing. When they make it obvious, it can get ugly. The Pederson fiasco in Philly led to a pissed off locker room.
No one's talking about who may or may not catch on nor are we talking about intentionally calling risky plays that put anyone in danger. If you're Ross and you want to offer someone cash bonuses for games lost are you going to the one person who spends the better part of the week game planning and controls every aspect of what your team is going to do or do you open it up to your roster?
Exactly. Over the years there have been a few coaches who have gotten a well deserved rep of being shitty game clock managers because that aspect of the games has cost them wins. That's just one example of a way a coach could adversely affect the game without looking as though he's doing it on purpose.
I wish I had captured the link earlier but can't find it now, but the gist of the article was that if Flores was offered $100K per game for each loss, that could result in a criminal investigation and perhaps jail time for Stephen Ross. It's essentially the same as bribing someone to throw a game which is a criminal offense.
That said, I don't think that this will ever amount to more that a he said/she said issue so I doubt that there will be enough to charge Ross, much less convict him of any crime.
Given that the NFL is now in bed with Draftkings, etc., this is very ugly.
That said, I don't think that this will ever amount to more that a he said/she said issue so I doubt that there will be enough to charge Ross, much less convict him of any crime.
Given that the NFL is now in bed with Draftkings, etc., this is very ugly.
Not sure if this is the one you saw, but Volin has a piece up at the Glob that gets into this.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2022/02/02/sports/brian-flores-lawsuit-analysis/
Honestly, 100k per loss seems like pretty shabby payment given the risk, the money already at play, and the value to the franchise for grabbing a top pick. I mean, you’re offering $1.6 million mask to grab a Burrow or Lawrence to a dude who might lose his job or be disgraced or jailed.
Not sure if this is the same one, but saw this on PFT. It also sounds like Jackson could be in legal trouble if it was ever proven he accepted bonuses for losing from Haslam. But I agree, I doubt there's a paper trail in either case, so it likely never goes to the criminal level.
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/02/02/stephen-ross-jimmy-haslam-could-be-prosecuted-for-violating-the-sports-bribery-act/
Thanks. That's the one.
Curious if this could be a slippery slope to address tanking in all sports. With both MLB and the NFL embracing legalized gambling, this could be a game-changer.
One of the owners at our local NE NJ dogpark is a retired NYPD detective, and when we were talking about this today, his eyes lit up and he said that his dept. would have been all over that.
Granted, he's not a lawyer and didn't mention anything about discussing it with a DA, but he said that they would have been ripping this whole thing apart to get to the bottom of it.
He also pointed out that they would have looked into Flores not reporting the exchange to the authorities when it originally occurred.
Again, mid level NYPD detective when he retired......
If Flores wanted to lose in 2019, all he had to was keep starting Josh Rosen over Fitzmagic under the guise of we need to evaluate if this is the QB of the future since they had just traded a 2019 2nd & 2020 5th for him.
Tl;dr in spoilers...
Tl;dr in spoilers...
Dolphins lost to Ravens week 1 59-10. Rosen was 1-3 for 5 yards & 1 INT in garbage time.
Rosen came in against the Patriots in week 2 in their 43-0 loss & sucked (7-18, 97 yards, 1 INT).
Then he started:
Week 3: 31-6 loss @ Dallas, 18-39 200 yards 0-0
Week 4: 30-10 loss v. Chargers, 17-24 180 yards 1-1
Week 5: 17-16 loss v. WFT, 15-25, 85 yards, 0-2
Before being benched for the rest of the season (except 3 snaps with 0 passes in week 9).
They lost weeks 6 & 7 with Fitz by 10 & 13 & were 0-7. Rather than waving the white flag & putting Joshua Ballinger Lippincott Rosen back in, Flores stuck with Fitz & went 5-4 for the rest of the season.
Only JBLR could have let them compete with the 2-14 Bengals for Joey Brrrr's services & Flores' chance at a $1.5m payday.
Instead the Dolphins slipped to 5th pick, drafted Tua over Herbert & here we are.
Rosen came in against the Patriots in week 2 in their 43-0 loss & sucked (7-18, 97 yards, 1 INT).
Then he started:
Week 3: 31-6 loss @ Dallas, 18-39 200 yards 0-0
Week 4: 30-10 loss v. Chargers, 17-24 180 yards 1-1
Week 5: 17-16 loss v. WFT, 15-25, 85 yards, 0-2
Before being benched for the rest of the season (except 3 snaps with 0 passes in week 9).
They lost weeks 6 & 7 with Fitz by 10 & 13 & were 0-7. Rather than waving the white flag & putting Joshua Ballinger Lippincott Rosen back in, Flores stuck with Fitz & went 5-4 for the rest of the season.
Only JBLR could have let them compete with the 2-14 Bengals for Joey Brrrr's services & Flores' chance at a $1.5m payday.
Instead the Dolphins slipped to 5th pick, drafted Tua over Herbert & here we are.
Guys, we all know the real change is going to happen as a result of this scandal and lawsuit:
The sham interviews will be scheduled first.
Well, the Florida detectives sure went after Kraft. I assume it matters what connects Ross has with the locals and feds.
This was actually discussed and is now part of the thread that was broken out. However, as one of the few Eagles fans here, I will tell you that it was not a tank job, but a power struggle between the GM/CEO and the coach over the future of the QB position in Philly.
Short version: Pederson came to the conclusion that Wentz was broken. Roseman (CEO) disagreed and insisted that he continue working towards building the team around him. Pederson responded by making Wentz inactive for the final game and then lifting Hurts (who he saw as the QB of the future) after the third quarter in a meaningless game.
Was it a smart decision? Evidently not. (It ensured that he would be fired in the eventual confrontation in front of the owner.) But it wasn’t tanking - or at least it wasn’t done for the purpose of tanking. It was insubordination.
That may seem like a distinction without a difference, but that’s the background.
I'd be fine with some sort of NBA-style lottery to limit the tanking. At the same time, while an elite NFL QB has huge value, good drafting still seems to be of critical importance.
Of all the current top QBs, you have Burrow, Stafford and Murray as successful #1 picks that teams needed to be in that slot to get.
Brady, Rodgers, Mahomes, Allen, Herbert, Wilson, Dak, Carr, L Jackson etc were taken after other QBs, available long enough for possible trade ups etc. It's still a pretty imperfect evaluation process.
Certainly better to be higher than not, but having a top 3 or top 5 pick still yields plenty of busts.
Of all the current top QBs, you have Burrow, Stafford and Murray as successful #1 picks that teams needed to be in that slot to get.
Brady, Rodgers, Mahomes, Allen, Herbert, Wilson, Dak, Carr, L Jackson etc were taken after other QBs, available long enough for possible trade ups etc. It's still a pretty imperfect evaluation process.
Certainly better to be higher than not, but having a top 3 or top 5 pick still yields plenty of busts.
There's no crime there.
There may be a violation of some league rule, but it's not a crime.
I was under the impression that it was the PB county DA Aronson who pressed the issue with Kraft.
Aronson is a BIG Fins fan, was even married to a Fins cheer leader for a while (not that there's anything wrong with that).
My brother and my younger son (both huge Pats fans) are both very friendly with Aronson, and the Kraft issue is one thing that is never EVER brought up into conversation.
Bribery is payment to influence a government official. You can bribe your private sector employees with impunity!
Yes. Just pointing out that he certainly had an easy way to do it. Not in any way saying he should have done it or that he ever should have been put in that position.
All it probably would have taken is a single decision, had Flores stuck with Rosen and not played Fitzpatrick, I’d wager Miami would have had the number one pick.
The question though does also bring to mind, that season, leading 14-10 with less than a minute until half vs. Pittsburgh, 3rd and 20, Miami ran cover zero, all out blitz and gave up a 45 yard touchdown….at the time that certainly seemed like a call from a team attempting to tank…
I feel like the tanking angle is going to end up being a nothing burger for the most part. Highly doubt any owner left a paper trail of offering a "losing bonus", and most fans understand that teams do it in every sport, in order to improve draft position, etc. Even factoring in draft kings and legalized betting in general, I think most people who participate in those realize that you bet on a game featuring a bad team, particularly late in the season after they've been officially eliminated, at your own peril. It's the most scandalous sounding element of the case/story, but I think ultimately the most easily refuted by the league.
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Couldn't Flores not reporting Ross's scheme to manipulate the outcome of a sporting event (hello Arnold Rothstein) be considered part of a conspiracy to defraud the public? Whether the tanking can be proved is one thing, but I'm pretty sure its a crime.
Going down the rabbit hole...
If they actually wanted to tank Ross should probably have ordered Grier to trade Fitz as they had just moved to 0-7 the day before the trade deadline.
More tl;dr...
Let's hypothetically trade him to the Panthers. Who started 0-2 with Cam before he got knocked out for the season. Kyle Allen won his 1st 4 games before a week 8 51-13 loss to the 49ers knocked them to 4-3 - putting them a 1/2 game behind the 5-3 Rams for the 2nd Wild Card.
Allen was looking like he may or may not be an actual QB, CMC was on his way to a 2,392 yards from scrimmage season & their back-up QB was...Will Grier.
Let's trade Fitz for Grier & a 2020 5th rounder to recoup the 5th they traded away in the Rosen trade, entrust our QB room to Rosen & Grier to make it so our meddling non-tanking coach can't play a competent QB, & bottom-out for Burrow. Bengals probably not in the Super Bowl this year.
Panthers get a veteran leader & probably don't lose their last 8 games, which led to the firing of Ron Rivera at 5-7 & should have led to the firing of Marty Hurney who refused to make this hypothetical trade & was not fired for another year).
Allen was looking like he may or may not be an actual QB, CMC was on his way to a 2,392 yards from scrimmage season & their back-up QB was...Will Grier.
Let's trade Fitz for Grier & a 2020 5th rounder to recoup the 5th they traded away in the Rosen trade, entrust our QB room to Rosen & Grier to make it so our meddling non-tanking coach can't play a competent QB, & bottom-out for Burrow. Bengals probably not in the Super Bowl this year.
Panthers get a veteran leader & probably don't lose their last 8 games, which led to the firing of Ron Rivera at 5-7 & should have led to the firing of Marty Hurney who refused to make this hypothetical trade & was not fired for another year).
It’s a weird offer. I damn sure wouldn’t accept it without paperwork, but obviously it’s not something you’d sue in court over, and if it’s illegal it’s not something you could contract for to begin with.
Also - how would these payments have been made? Crypto? Offshore accounts?
I guess under the guise of any previously negotiated performance bonuses? But in general, yes, seems weird and unlikely that any formal offer or arraignments would ever exist.
Interesting for sure. If I'm wrong, and they do have hard evidence, then it's disastrous, at least for Ross.
If there is substantial evidence (multiple credible witnesses) it will lead to Ross losing the team and Miami getting hammered.
I guess, but those would still have to track what’s in the actual public contract if anyone goes a-looking.
It's not hard to imagine that moving money around without being detected by the eyes of the government is Stephen Ross's superpower.
At least doing it this way *might* give the minority candidate a chance to knock their socks off in the interview, maybe change their thinking. Which is supposed to be why the Rooney Rule exists in the first place.
I am less certain. Flores by his own admission did not comply with Ross’s request. He did not accept payment for losing games. Miami did not get the first overall pick.
This might fall under a gray area such as soliciting or intent, but the foul was never actually committed. He didn’t intentionally lose any games despite Ross’s proposal.
There are far better legal experts than me here, obviously, but talking about breaking the rules (if there are even any written rules about intentionally losing) is different than actually going out and doing it and providing bank statements with 100K deposits after losses.
The entire point of Flores’ lawsuit is that we know exactly what will happen in the interview: coaches of color will almost invariably not get the job, and it will not create a favorable opportunity for them a few years down the road.
But it did create a favorable opportunity for Flores in the future.
His interview with the Broncos may have been a sham, but it got his name in the head coaching conversation, he continued to grind, and he was later hired by the Dolphins as a head coach at a time when he wasn’t a household name as a candidate.
It was the same off-season, wasn’t it? Hard to argue that Flores wasn’t already on the Dolphins’ list.
His name was in the head coaching conversation by virtue of working under BB for the Pats, not by virtue of the Broncos interview.
You’re 100% right. I thought I read that his Broncos interview was in 2018, not 2019.
I fucked this up. -BB