Red Sox in season discussion

YTF

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Sure he did. He chose not to go to the free agent market after the 2019 season and undoubtedly would’ve gotten more on the open market than what he signed for.
If he'd hit the free agent market after the 2019 season, his peers on the market would have been Didi Gregorius, Jose Iglesias, Jose Peraza, and Adeiny Hechavarria. So far and away he would have been the best SS on the market, coming off his two best statistical seasons to date (5th in MVP voting in 2019). Someone would have paid up. The aforementioned Josh Donaldson got the richest position player contract that winter heading into his age 34 season at 4/$96M. No doubt that Bogaerts going into his age 27 season gets a similar, likely higher AAV for more years.
My point was that he and Boras may have been banking on a mega deal after the three year opt out. In hindsight you might say he took less to stay and you're correct, but it wasn't a magnanimous decision to do the home team a solid (my words not yours) which sometimes is projected when folks look at the the idea of a player taking less to stay where he is. Hence my response to RedOctober asking "Should he be expected to do so AGAIN?" IIRC he signed that extension before the 2019 season. He didn't know in March what he would later know in October. IMO the extension was a matter of safety and security with a chance to go for more in a couple of years.
 

Cesar Crespo

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This analogy seems inapt. There are many fish in the sea, but a finite amount of MLB-caliber third basemen. It’s easy to tell which are slated to reach free agency in the next few years. Which do you think will sign with Boston for 6/$140? Moncada? Bregman? Or which of our in-house candidates (Binelas, Dalbec) do you think handles it?
Again, did you predict the Trevor Story signing? You did not. You want an answer to a question that isn't being asked for another 2 years. They also don't have to replace Devers with another 3b. They can replace his value at another position. Crazy thought, I know. Taking money from 3b and assigning to SP or something. Radical.

We can't predict the future. In 2018, was anyone looking to sign Marcus Semien to big money? Players break out, players go in decline. A lot can happen in 2 years.

I'm sorry the future scares you.
 

RedOctober3829

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Again, did you predict the Trevor Story signing? You did not. You want an answer to a question that isn't being asked for another 2 years. They also don't have to replace Devers with another 3b. They can replace his value at another position. Crazy thought, I know. Taking money from 3b and assigning to SP or something. Radical.

We can't predict the future. In 2018, was anyone looking to sign Marcus Semien to big money? Players break out, players go in decline. A lot can happen in 2 years.

I'm sorry the future scares you.
What would you think of a Devers deal that 7 or 8 years with a bit more AAV?? In your posts you keep trying to push that Devers is asking for a 10 year deal when there's no evidence that's the case.
 

nvalvo

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Whitlock extension announced. Financial terms still leaking out on twitter.

Four year extension, with two club options for 2027 and 2028. This buys out his pre-arb and first two arb seasons, and then has options for arb 3 and his first FA year.
 

YTF

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What would you think of a Devers deal that 7 or 8 years with a bit more AAV?? In your posts you keep trying to push that Devers is asking for a 10 year deal when there's no evidence that's the case.
CC can answer for himself, but if it's OK I'm going to take a crack at this. I think 7-8 years with a bit more AAV makes sense. Buy out and reward his final arbitration season as part of that or perhaps even rip up this year's deal and bump that up as part of the deal if they feel the need to. It could also be attractive to Devers to get more money this season and next and be able get another crack at a big payday as a FA at age 33-34 if he's earned it. As for the ten year thing, you're right there is no evidence that he's asked for that. It's something that is being responded to by suggestions here of ten year deals and "blank checks", but I wouldn't be surprised if that is the jumping of point for Devers and his team.
 
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Sandy Leon Trotsky

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CC can answer for himself, but if it's OK I'm going to take a crack at this. I think 7-8 years with a bit more AAV makes sense. Buy out and reward his final arbitration season as part of that or perhaps even rip up this year's deal and bump that up as part of the deal if they feel the need to. It could also be attractive to Devers to get more money this season and next and be able get another crack at a big payday as a FA at age 33-34 if he's earned it. As for the ten year thing, you're right there is no evidence that he's asked for that. It's something that is being responded to by suggestions here of ten year deals and "blank checks", but I would be surprised if that is the jumping of point for Devers and his team.
I would be honestly shocked if his DEMANDS- not even negotiable- is a 10 year deal at this point.
At FA in ‘24 then I could see anywhere from 5-8 year demands.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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That’s not the narrative he was looking for. And JBJ HOF cant be trusted with a question like this.
I stand corrected... I didn't see all of his at bats, only the ones where he looked overmatched.

My apologies.

My point still stands, though. JBJ is going to weigh down the lineup. It's probably still good enough to score enough as long as the pitching holds up.

Close losses to the Yankees hurt worse than other close losses. But they all count the same.
 
This analogy seems inapt. There are many fish in the sea, but a finite amount of MLB-caliber third basemen. It’s easy to tell which are slated to reach free agency in the next few years. Which do you think will sign with Boston for 6/$140? Moncada? Bregman? Or which of our in-house candidates (Binelas, Dalbec) do you think handles it?
I'll echo the sentiment that Devers' production doesn't have to be filled by a third baseman. In addition, it's unreasonable to think that we know exactly what the landscape of available players will look like a couple years from now. Sure, we can make some solid guesses but we don't know who will be available in trade, and we don't know if there are players that don't currently look like viable replacements that might look a lot more promising in a couple years. In late 2020 not many people would look at, say, Kike Hernandez as a mid to high end starting center fielder. That calculus looks a lot different now. Maybe his 2021 will be a fluke, but there's a solid chance that Kike will be a solid 2-4ish win player for years.

Weighting Raffy's last 3 years 3-2-1 and prorating 2020 to a full season you get an average of 3.78 fWAR. That's hardly irreplaceable.

If the Sox can extend Devers to a market rate-ish deal that ends in his early-mid to mid 30's then, sure, that'd be nice. But I really don't get the idea that he just has to be extended at all costs even to the point of overpaying.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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I stand corrected... I didn't see all of his at bats, only the ones where he looked overmatched.

My apologies.

My point still stands, though. JBJ is going to weigh down the lineup. It's probably still good enough to score enough as long as the pitching holds up.

Close losses to the Yankees hurt worse than other close losses. But they all count the same.
It isn’t the same point when it is wrong.

I mean it is, but it’s value is somewhat different.
 

BaseballJones

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Just to remind people...The JBJ trade wasn't for JBJ. I mean obviously they got him back in the deal, but the deal was for prospects Alex Binelas and David Hamilton. The Sox used their financial muscle to essentially "buy" those prospects from Milwaukee. JBJ was the price they had to pay (along with Renfroe) to get those prospects.
 

Minneapolis Millers

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Just to remind people...The JBJ trade wasn't for JBJ. I mean obviously they got him back in the deal, but the deal was for prospects Alex Binelas and David Hamilton. The Sox used their financial muscle to essentially "buy" those prospects from Milwaukee. JBJ was the price they had to pay (along with Renfroe) to get those prospects.
Agree about 80%. I think they valued JBJ as a #4 OF in an Option B scenario where they didn’t get a F/T OF. And then to use him as they did yesterday, starting a better (or at least RH) bat and subbing JBJ in late for defense. Had JBJ been a FA, they might have signed him (after missing out on Suzuki, etc) for a couple mil for that role anyway, even without the prospects.
 

rodderick

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I'll echo the sentiment that Devers' production doesn't have to be filled by a third baseman. In addition, it's unreasonable to think that we know exactly what the landscape of available players will look like a couple years from now. Sure, we can make some solid guesses but we don't know who will be available in trade, and we don't know if there are players that don't currently look like viable replacements that might look a lot more promising in a couple years. In late 2020 not many people would look at, say, Kike Hernandez as a mid to high end starting center fielder. That calculus looks a lot different now. Maybe his 2021 will be a fluke, but there's a solid chance that Kike will be a solid 2-4ish win player for years.

Weighting Raffy's last 3 years 3-2-1 and prorating 2020 to a full season you get an average of 3.78 fWAR. That's hardly irreplaceable.

If the Sox can extend Devers to a market rate-ish deal that ends in his early-mid to mid 30's then, sure, that'd be nice. But I really don't get the idea that he just has to be extended at all costs even to the point of overpaying.
Seems to me that's giving a whole lot of weight to 2020, which was the clear outlier when compared to 2019 and 2021. ZiPS has him as a 4.5 WAR guy for the next three years and that seems more reasonable to me. Also, here are the third basemen who accounted for more WAR than Devers from 2019-2021, even including that bad 2020: Jose Ramirez, Yoan Moncada and Alex Bregman. That's it. I really think you're overselling how easy that is to replace.
 

Rovin Romine

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Seems to me that's giving a whole lot of weight to 2020, which was the clear outlier when compared to 2019 and 2021. ZiPS has him as a 4.5 WAR guy for the next three years and that seems more reasonable to me. Also, here are the third basemen who accounted for more WAR than Devers from 2019-2021, even including that bad 2020: Jose Ramirez, Yoan Moncada and Alex Bregman. That's it. I really think you're overselling how easy that is to replace.
To go back to basics, one wins games by scoring more runs than your opponent. You can do that by adding hitting or pitching prowess. There's no rule that says one has to do it any particular way, but the talent distribution in baseball means that it's easier to find or sign good hitters at less challenging defensive positions. If a club fills a premium defensive position (C, CF, SS) with an excellent hitter, it gives them the flexibility to add more typical players elsewhere, and makes it theoretically easier to upgrade the club.

The Sox don't have to replace Dever's production at 3B. They could have an adequate 3B player, and sign or develop a great hitter who was a corner OF, or upgrade the pitching.

I don't think it's crazy to give Devers a good contract. But he's not a "sign at all costs" player. Certainly, if those costs are likely to tie the club's hands in the future. I think we forget how lucky we have been in terms of dumping contracts.
 

nvalvo

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Just to remind people...The JBJ trade wasn't for JBJ. I mean obviously they got him back in the deal, but the deal was for prospects Alex Binelas and David Hamilton. The Sox used their financial muscle to essentially "buy" those prospects from Milwaukee. JBJ was the price they had to pay (along with Renfroe) to get those prospects.
And those prospects, in tiny early samples:
  • Alex Binelas, in Greenville: .455/.571/.727 with three strikeouts against two walks.
  • David Hamilton, in Portland: .500/.615/1.300 with two strikeouts against three walks.
I think we mostly expected Binelas to rake, but Hamilton was presented as a glove-first slap-hitting speedster, and he already has two HR and a triple in three games in Portland in early April. Not the easiest situation to hit for power. If he can maintain some semblance of that power, while playing good defense up the middle, well, that's a real prospect.

So yeah, some guys to watch.
 

rodderick

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To go back to basics, one wins games by scoring more runs than your opponent. You can do that by adding hitting or pitching prowess. There's no rule that says one has to do it any particular way, but the talent distribution in baseball means that it's easier to find or sign good hitters at less challenging defensive positions. If a club fills a premium defensive position (C, CF, SS) with an excellent hitter, it gives them the flexibility to add more typical players elsewhere, and makes it theoretically easier to upgrade the club.

The Sox don't have to replace Dever's production at 3B. They could have an adequate 3B player, and sign or develop a great hitter who was a corner OF, or upgrade the pitching.

I don't think it's crazy to give Devers a good contract. But he's not a "sign at all costs" player. Certainly, if those costs are likely to tie the club's hands in the future. I think we forget how lucky we have been in terms of dumping contracts.
I don't think Devers is a sign at all costs type of player either, but then again I don't even know how many of those there are in the league, if any. I just think "hardly irreplaceable" was selling him short. It's not a banal exercise to replace his value while allocating significantly less resources than it would take to sign him.
 

pokey_reese

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Holy crap, I don't think that I realized Conforto was still unsigned after the distraction of the season starting. A reasonably young, 2-win OFer just sitting around seems strange to me. Is this a case of unreasonable contract demands, vaccine hesitancy, or something else? I would have thought that someone would have offered him enough to at least take a make-good contract for now, unless there is something we don't know.
 

Rovin Romine

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I don't think Devers is a sign at all costs type of player either, but then again I don't even know how many of those there are in the league, if any. I just think "hardly irreplaceable" was selling him short. It's not a banal exercise to replace his value while allocating significantly less resources than it would take to sign him.
Look at it this way.

Devers had an identical 132 OPS in 2019 and 2021. That's very good.
About 28 players were as good or better in this metric in 2019, and 23 players were better with the bat in 2021.

By WAR, in 2019, he had 5.6 WAR, which is great. 17 other position players were as good or better. (Pitching WAR on Bref, FWIW, lists another 10 pitchers.)
In 2020, he had 3.5. WAR. 71 position players were as good or better. (Plus 30 odd pitchers.)

Granted, he's very young for this kind of production. But there's no guarantee he's going to be significantly better.
 

chawson

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Tough choice there. Play for a contender in one of the most favorable offensive parks in baseball, or play for a terrible team and get traded in July somewhere not of your choosing.

Holy crap, I don't think that I realized Conforto was still unsigned after the distraction of the season starting. A reasonably young, 2-win OFer just sitting around seems strange to me. Is this a case of unreasonable contract demands, vaccine hesitancy, or something else? I would have thought that someone would have offered him enough to at least take a make-good contract for now, unless there is something we don't know.
There’s reportedly been lingering injury concerns with his right shoulder (per Boras), but Conforto did have pronounced vaccine hesitancy as of a year ago.

View: https://twitter.com/anthonydicomo/status/1378774073522712581?s=21&t=nFMQsBcSOUUwvBMqbfNVhQ
 

RedOctober3829

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Holy crap, I don't think that I realized Conforto was still unsigned after the distraction of the season starting. A reasonably young, 2-win OFer just sitting around seems strange to me. Is this a case of unreasonable contract demands, vaccine hesitancy, or something else? I would have thought that someone would have offered him enough to at least take a make-good contract for now, unless there is something we don't know.
It was reported that he suffered an injury off the field. The rumor is that he did something stupid at a friend's bachelor party and hurt himself.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Holy crap, I don't think that I realized Conforto was still unsigned after the distraction of the season starting. A reasonably young, 2-win OFer just sitting around seems strange to me. Is this a case of unreasonable contract demands, vaccine hesitancy, or something else? I would have thought that someone would have offered him enough to at least take a make-good contract for now, unless there is something we don't know.
Vaccine hesitancy may be part of it. Also, between the attached QO compensation and his rumored injury, I imagine teams' desire to sign a long term deal with him is pretty low. Can't help but wonder if any inquiries about him involve assessing the risk of waiting until after the draft to sign him.
 
Seems to me that's giving a whole lot of weight to 2020, which was the clear outlier when compared to 2019 and 2021. ZiPS has him as a 4.5 WAR guy for the next three years and that seems more reasonable to me. Also, here are the third basemen who accounted for more WAR than Devers from 2019-2021, even including that bad 2020: Jose Ramirez, Yoan Moncada and Alex Bregman. That's it. I really think you're overselling how easy that is to replace.
Sure, I think it's reasonably likely that Devers is a 4.5 WAR guy over the next three years. Like @Rovin Romine said though that's hardly irreplaceable. The Sox have pretty big holes at C, 1B, RF, and SP. Even just marginal upgrades at each of those positions could easily add up to more WAR than we'd lose from Devers. There were also 20 3B last season that put up at least 2 fWAR and 6 more that put up 1.5-1.99 fWAR. It shouldn't be difficult to replace Devers with someone that is at least in the 1-2 WAR range, if not better. So that means we are really only needing to add 2.5 WAR elsewhere to mitigate the loss.

Losing Raffy would be very significant, and it would absolutely need to be answered with improvements elsewhere to the roster. But suggesting that throwing 300+mm at Devers over 10 years is absolutely necessary for the Sox to continue to compete (as some people have) seems like a huge stretch to me.

Regardless of how you feel about the Mookie Betts situation, I think most of us can agree that:

  1. Devers is a solid rung below where Betts was at the time that we lost Betts
  2. We did not sign or graduate any talent at either Devers or Betts level
  3. And yet we just made a deep playoff run and are poised to be at least competitive this year
 

Minneapolis Millers

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Regardless of how you feel about the Mookie Betts situation, I think most of us can agree that:

  1. Devers is a solid rung below where Betts was at the time that we lost Betts
  2. We did not sign or graduate any talent at either Devers or Betts level
  3. And yet we just made a deep playoff run and are poised to be at least competitive this year
Agreed. (In fact, I’d argue the defensively challenged and less athletic Devers is two rungs below Betts.)

I also agree with those you are saying or suggesting that you need elite talent. Having a bunch of 2 WAR players will keep you competitive but likely lead to near misses or early playoff exits. Somebody needs to be able to take Chapman’s FB and stick it in the stands. Somebody needs to give you 5 shut out innings. Great players are more likely to do those things than merely above average guys.

But it’s about perspective. If you think the Sox will fail to extend Devers AND drop payroll by 25+%, then yeah, I’d share those fears for the future. I think that’s extremely unlikely, however, and I trust them to be able to value players well enough, individually and in the aggregate, to not pay full market value for Devers two years in advance and, as necessary, to find other good players who can keep the overall team highly competitive.
 

YTF

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Along with the vaccine status issue, injury issue and QO compensation issue there is also the issue of him not being a right handed hitter. If you need a bat, you need a bat, but Ideally I don't think that you want to platoon two (possibly three) guys who are hitting from the same side of the plate.
 
I also agree with those you are saying or suggesting that you need elite talent. Having a bunch of 2 WAR players will keep you competitive but likely lead to near misses or early playoff exits. Somebody needs to be able to take Chapman’s FB and stick it in the stands. Somebody needs to give you 5 shut out innings. Great players are more likely to do those things than merely above average guys.
Absolutely, you want to have some elite talent. I'm just becoming more and more convinced that teams basically need to either develop that talent or trade for it. High payroll teams can maybe afford one or two giant contracts, and once you sign them you're stuck with them. Right now our big contract is Sale, and look how universally derided on this board that deal is. Now people want to throw a similar or higher AAV at Devers for twice as long. There's a really good chance that in a few years that decision will look just as bad as the Sale decision. Sale had just put in seven seasons averaging 5.6 fWAR, with the last two coming in at 7.6 and 6.2. Then he signed the extension and fell apart.

Let's look at where teams found their 4+ fWAR talent in 2021:

  • 12 pitchers were pre-FA
  • 2 pitchers were signed to 5+ year deals
  • 8 pitchers were signed to <5 year deals
  • 17 position players were pre-FA
  • 12 position players were signed to 5+ year deals
  • 8 position players were signed to <5 year deals
Note that I counted pre-FA players who signed extensions that bought out FA years in the short/long term deal category depending on how many FA years were bought out. So some of those "signed" players were actually pre-FA.

Overall, basically half of the 4+ win players in 2021 were young players that had neither signed a free agent contract nor an extension. Of the players that were signed to deals that covered FA years, they were roughly evenly split between long and short term deals.

If nothing else, I think this clearly shows that the premise that one has to splash long term contracts to secure top level talent is ridiculous. Only 14 of the top 59 players in 2021 were signed to 5+ year deals.

Clearly the most likely path to elite talent is to develop it, and the numbers suggest that you're basically just as likely to find top talent on shorter term deals than you are on long term ones.
 

chawson

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Sure, I think it's reasonably likely that Devers is a 4.5 WAR guy over the next three years. Like @Rovin Romine said though that's hardly irreplaceable. The Sox have pretty big holes at C, 1B, RF, and SP. Even just marginal upgrades at each of those positions could easily add up to more WAR than we'd lose from Devers. There were also 20 3B last season that put up at least 2 fWAR and 6 more that put up 1.5-1.99 fWAR. It shouldn't be difficult to replace Devers with someone that is at least in the 1-2 WAR range, if not better. So that means we are really only needing to add 2.5 WAR elsewhere to mitigate the loss.
We'd need to add 2.5 WAR elsewhere through spending to mitigate the loss, right? Not necessarily dropping $300M on it, but by acquiring outside talent, not just through prospect projections. Otherwise this is all just an exercise in saving JWH money.

Spreading the risk makes sense to a degree, but splitting 5 WAR between two or more players also costs that many roster spots. Roster spots have value, both in the opportunity cost of missed development time and in prospects lost from an inability to protect them on the Rule 5 draft, which matters for deep systems like ours. The real equation would be 2 WAR 3B + 2.5 WAR SP = 4.5 WAR Devers + player TBA (plus the future value of player TBA). One elite, 32 runs-above-average hitter on TEAM A is more valuable than two 16 runs-above-average hitters on TEAM B, because its easier for TEAM A to find a roughly league-average hitter to fill the non-elite lineup position.

For the record, I'm not at all ready to assume Devers is a 4.5 WAR guy going forward. Did his hitting stop improving at age 24? That intuitively doesn't make sense, and it doesn't jell with the numbers he put up from mid-June on last year, after he solved his weird little stretch not catching up to hit fastballs and then considerably improved his walk rate. It also assumes that he won't benefit from the banned shift beginning in 2023, which is extremely unlikely (otherwise they wouldn't shift him). Devers had the second-highest exit velocity (Y. Alvarez) among all LHH on pulled ground balls and line drives in 2021, so its reasonable to think more of those would go through for base hits.

But let's go with it. Let's assume that we can somehow plug in Dalbec or some a generic 2-win third baseman for relatively free, and that we're happy with that. We'd then need to acquire a 2.5-win pitcher. Again -- with money, not just prospect projections. There are 61 starting pitchers (and their ages) who put up 2.5 fWAR in 2021 or cumulative 3 fWAR over 20-21, listed according to their free agency:

FA 2023: Eflin (29), Rodon (29, can opt out of 1/22.5M in '23), Musgrove (30), Manaea (31), Bassitt (34), Gibson (35), Kershaw (35), Minor (35), Miley (36), Greinke (39), Morton (39, team holds $20M option in '23), Wainwright (41)

FA 2024: Flexen (29), Mahle (29), Ohtani (29), Glasnow (30), Montas (31), Montgomery (31), Nola (31), Luis Castillo (31), Eduardo Rodriguez (31, can opt out of 3/$49M), Stroman (33, if opts out of 1/$21M), Wood (33), Sonny Gray (34), Maeda (36), Darvish (37), Lynn (37, team holds $18M club option in '24), Ryu (37)

FA 2025: Bieber (30), Buehler (30), Burnes (30), Pablo Lopez (29), Marquez (30), Fried (31), Woodruff (31), Means (32), Stroman (34, if doesn't opt out of '24), Hendricks (35), Wheeler (35), Cobb (37), Scherzer (41)

FA 2026: Singer (29), Webb (29), Cease (30), Gallen (30), Valdez (32), Matz (35), Kelly (37)

FA 2027: Ian Anderson (29), Trevor Rogers (29), Luis Garcia (30), Alcantara (31, team holds $21M option in '27), Peralta (31), Senzatela (32, team holds $14M option in '27), McCullers Jr. (33), Ray (35)

This list excludes Eovaldi (who already plays for us and has a separate win-value calculation), guys in our division with long-term contracts (Cole, Gausman and Berrios) and Trevor Bauer (because).

This list is shorter than you might think. I'd argue that all of Bassitt, Gibson, Kershaw, Minor, Miley, Greinke, Morton, Wainwright, Gray, Maeda, Darvish, Lynn, Ryu, Hendricks, Cobb, Scherzer, Matz, Kelly, McCullers and Ray won't be worth signing at their respective ages because they aren't likely to be effective. That leaves us with the following:

'23: Eflin, Rodon, Musgrove, Manaea
'24: Flexen, Mahle, Ohtani, Glasnow, Montas, Montgomery, Nola, Castillo, E-Rod, Wood
'25: Bieber, Buehler, Burnes, Lopez, Marquez, Fried, Woodruff, Means, Stroman, Wheeler
'26: Webb, Cease, maybe Brady Singer
'27 is far enough in the future that it's got little to do with Devers, but I suppose someone like Trevor Rogers could become available sooner if the Marlins wish to shop him.

That's 27 pitchers potentially available pitchers over the next four offseasons who could be worth 2.5+ WAR. Many are likely to be very expensive, which would eat into the cost-savings you'd be getting relative to a Devers deal. Musgrove, Ohtani, Bieber, Burnes, Buehler, Nola and Woodruff could all reasonably get $150M if they continue on their trajectory. Rodon, Montas, Mahle, Marquez, Lopez, Fried, Webb and Cease could all approach nine-figure deals if they stay healthy, and Glasnow could join them if he has a strong 2023. Manaea has bad splits and it's telling that the Sox didn't get him for as cheap as the Mets did. E-Rod is probably out on principle, and Ohtani is doubtful to leave the West Coast. Eflin, Montgomery, Flexen, Means, Singer, Wood, Gallen and Valdez could go either way. Wheeler may still be a stud, but he'd be fairly old. There will probably be other pitchers breaking out and hitting free agency in the next couple years, but they'll have some question marks by definition.

Of course, this also assumes that the Sox can outbid other teams and land one of these guys, preferably one of their top few targets. If I knew we could land Musgrove, Mahle or Montas with a free agent contract in the next two years free agent and absolutely needed Devers's money to do it -- a scenario far less likely to be the case with the higher CBT thresholds -- then that'd be one thing. But what happens if this plan to pass on Devers in favor of two equally valuable players gets us like, Matt Chapman (6 + $120M) and John Means (4/$60M)? Is that better?
 
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bosockboy

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Along with the vaccine status issue, injury issue and QO compensation issue there is also the issue of him not being a right handed hitter. If you need a bat, you need a bat, but Ideally I don't think that you want to platoon two (possibly three) guys who are hitting from the same side of the plate.
Even with him as a starting OF, we’d only have 3 every day LHH. Devers, Verdugo and Conforto. No platoons really necessary.
 
@chawson I think there are two separate questions here (and to be clear I don't think you specifically are raising these questions, I just mean in general):

  • Do the Red Sox need to extend Devers to remain competitive?
  • Is extending Devers to a market rate or even slightly above market rate contract the best way to use those resources?
Most of my argument above is intended to address the first question, which I think is easier to answer. I 100% agree with you that two 2 win players does not equal a four win player, but if you roughly define a "competitive" team as a team that hits a certain threshold of WAR, I think it is reasonable to posit that achieving modest improvements in multiple positions can outweigh a large loss elsewhere. Obviously one would rather have it all, and if I had to choose between a context neutral 4 win player and two 2 win players I'd pick the former.

I think your argument mostly addresses the second question, which I think is much harder to answer. We could use the money for upgrades at SP (or other positions of weakness), but being able to do so is no guarantee as you point out. I think if it were a question of just the next few seasons it'd be a no-brainer to extend Devers, but we also have to consider the back end of the contract too.
 

Rovin Romine

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We'd need to add 2.5 WAR elsewhere through spending to mitigate the loss, right? Not necessarily dropping $300M on it, but by acquiring outside talent, not just through prospect projections. Otherwise this is all just an exercise in saving JWH money.

Spreading the risk makes sense to a degree, but splitting 5 WAR between two or more players also costs that many roster spots. Roster spots have value, both in the opportunity cost of missed development time and in prospects lost from an inability to protect them on the Rule 5 draft, which matters for deep systems like ours. The real equation would be 2 WAR 3B + 2.5 WAR SP = 4.5 WAR Devers + player TBA (plus the future value of player TBA). One elite, 32 runs-above-average hitter on TEAM A is more valuable than two 16 runs-above-average hitters on TEAM B, because its easier for TEAM A to find a roughly league-average hitter to fill the non-elite lineup position.

For the record, I'm not at all ready to assume Devers is a 4.5 WAR guy going forward. Did his hitting stop improving at age 24? That intuitively doesn't make sense, and it doesn't jell with the numbers he put up from mid-June on last year, after he solved his weird little stretch not catching up to hit fastballs and then considerably improved his walk rate. It also assumes that he won't benefit from the banned shift beginning in 2023, which is extremely unlikely (otherwise they wouldn't shift him). Devers had the second-highest exit velocity (Y. Alvarez) among all LHH on pulled ground balls and line drives in 2021, so its reasonable to think more of those would go through for base hits.

But let's go with it. Let's assume that we can somehow plug in Dalbec or some a generic 2-win third baseman for relatively free, and that we're happy with that. We'd then need to acquire a 2.5-win pitcher. Again -- with money, not just prospect projections. There are 61 starting pitchers (and their ages) who put up 2.5 fWAR in 2021 or cumulative 3 fWAR over 20-21, listed according to their free agency:

FA 2023: Eflin (29), Rodon (29, can opt out of 1/22.5M in '23), Musgrove (30), Manaea (31), Bassitt (34), Gibson (35), Kershaw (35), Minor (35), Miley (36), Greinke (39), Morton (39, team holds $20M option in '23), Wainwright (41)

FA 2024: Flexen (29), Mahle (29), Ohtani (29), Glasnow (30), Montas (31), Montgomery (31), Nola (31), Luis Castillo (31), Eduardo Rodriguez (31, can opt out of 3/$49M), Stroman (33, if opts out of 1/$21M), Wood (33), Sonny Gray (34), Maeda (36), Darvish (37), Lynn (37, team holds $18M club option in '24), Ryu (37)

FA 2025: Bieber (30), Buehler (30), Burnes (30), Pablo Lopez (29), Marquez (30), Fried (31), Woodruff (31), Means (32), Stroman (34, if doesn't opt out of '24), Hendricks (35), Wheeler (35), Cobb (37), Scherzer (41)

FA 2026: Singer (29), Webb (29), Cease (30), Gallen (30), Valdez (32), Matz (35), Kelly (37)

FA 2027: Ian Anderson (29), Trevor Rogers (29), Luis Garcia (30), Alcantara (31, team holds $21M option in '27), Peralta (31), Senzatela (32, team holds $14M option in '27), McCullers Jr. (33), Ray (35)

This list excludes Eovaldi (who already plays for us and has a separate win-value calculation), guys in our division with long-term contracts (Cole, Gausman and Berrios) and Trevor Bauer (because).

This list is shorter than you might think. I'd argue that all of Bassitt, Gibson, Kershaw, Minor, Miley, Greinke, Morton, Wainwright, Gray, Maeda, Darvish, Lynn, Ryu, Hendricks, Cobb, Scherzer, Matz, Kelly, McCullers and Ray won't be worth signing at their respective ages because they aren't likely to be effective. That leaves us with the following:

'23: Eflin, Rodon, Musgrove, Manaea
'24: Flexen, Mahle, Ohtani, Glasnow, Montas, Montgomery, Nola, Castillo, E-Rod, Wood
'25: Bieber, Buehler, Burnes, Lopez, Marquez, Fried, Woodruff, Means, Stroman, Wheeler
'26: Webb, Cease, maybe Brady Singer
'27 is far enough in the future that it's got little to do with Devers, but I suppose someone like Trevor Rogers could become available sooner if the Marlins wish to shop him.

That's 27 pitchers potentially available pitchers over the next four offseasons who could be worth 2.5+ WAR. Many are likely to be very expensive, which would eat into the cost-savings you'd be getting relative to a Devers deal. Musgrove, Ohtani, Bieber, Burnes, Buehler, Nola and Woodruff could all reasonably get $150M if they continue on their trajectory. Rodon, Montas, Mahle, Marquez, Lopez, Fried, Webb and Cease could all approach nine-figure deals if they stay healthy, and Glasnow could join them if he has a strong 2023. Manaea has bad splits and it's telling that the Sox didn't get him for as cheap as the Mets did. E-Rod is probably out on principle, and Ohtani is doubtful to leave the West Coast. Eflin, Montgomery, Flexen, Means, Singer, Wood, Gallen and Valdez could go either way. Wheeler may still be a stud, but he'd be fairly old. There will probably be other pitchers breaking out and hitting free agency in the next couple years, but they'll have some question marks by definition.

Of course, this also assumes that the Sox can outbid other teams and land one of these guys, preferably one of their top few targets. If I knew we could land Musgrove, Mahle or Montas with a free agent contract in the next two years free agent and absolutely needed Devers's money to do it -- a scenario far less likely to be the case with the higher CBT thresholds -- then that'd be one thing. But what happens if this plan to pass on Devers in favor of two equally valuable players gets us like, Matt Chapman (6 + $120M) and John Means (4/$60M)? Is that better?
Yawn. Don't change your own plan, Stan.

We already have Exit-Velocity-Franchy in AAA, so once the shift is banned, we'll just pair him with Danny Santana in the OF and each of those dudes will hit 60 HR. Along with Soto.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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I think you only sign Conforto if you think Bradley is toast; then you drop him for a RH OF who can take some tough at bats against lefties from Conforto and Verdugo. Can’t imagine they’d make that conclusion this early in the year.
 

cantor44

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Absolutely, you want to have some elite talent. I'm just becoming more and more convinced that teams basically need to either develop that talent or trade for it. High payroll teams can maybe afford one or two giant contracts, and once you sign them you're stuck with them. Right now our big contract is Sale, and look how universally derided on this board that deal is. Now people want to throw a similar or higher AAV at Devers for twice as long. There's a really good chance that in a few years that decision will look just as bad as the Sale decision. Sale had just put in seven seasons averaging 5.6 fWAR, with the last two coming in at 7.6 and 6.2. Then he signed the extension and fell apart.

Let's look at where teams found their 4+ fWAR talent in 2021:

  • 12 pitchers were pre-FA
  • 2 pitchers were signed to 5+ year deals
  • 8 pitchers were signed to <5 year deals
  • 17 position players were pre-FA
  • 12 position players were signed to 5+ year deals
  • 8 position players were signed to <5 year deals
Note that I counted pre-FA players who signed extensions that bought out FA years in the short/long term deal category depending on how many FA years were bought out. So some of those "signed" players were actually pre-FA.

Overall, basically half of the 4+ win players in 2021 were young players that had neither signed a free agent contract nor an extension. Of the players that were signed to deals that covered FA years, they were roughly evenly split between long and short term deals.

If nothing else, I think this clearly shows that the premise that one has to splash long term contracts to secure top level talent is ridiculous. Only 14 of the top 59 players in 2021 were signed to 5+ year deals.

Clearly the most likely path to elite talent is to develop it, and the numbers suggest that you're basically just as likely to find top talent on shorter term deals than you are on long term ones.
The big difference with the Sale comparison is that Sale was hurt at the time they extended him. He needed to be protected for the last 1/4 of the 2018 season and all through the playoffs. And he was already having trouble completing seasons strong in years prior. The Sox extended a compromised Sale, even though they had a year left to see if his injuries would continue to hamper him. Many felt it was a bad signing at the time. Devers is young, entering the prime of his prime, and he's healthy. Maybe he'll get hurt up the road, who's to say - but he's not already hurt.

I do get that uneasy feeling at the idea of 10/30 with Devers, given his bad D, but he will likely rake at an elite level for several more years, and there is nothing at present that would indicate otherwise.
 

mikeford

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It would appear Houck is not vaccinated and thus won't be starting in Toronto next week.

I just love having selfish Facebook MDs on the baseball team I support, it's great.
 

bosockboy

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It would appear Houck is not vaccinated and thus won't be starting in Toronto next week.

I just love having selfish Facebook MDs on the baseball team I support, it's great.
He’s from a very red county in Illinois across the river from St Louis where I live. Not surprising.
 

TonyPenaNeverJuiced

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Unfortunate that McWilliams runs this quote unchecked. Why should Houck get a soapbox from which to spew this nonsense?

Tanner Houck said:
“I’m definitely bummed that I won’t be able to make that start,” Houck said. “But the starts that I am able to make, I plan on giving 100 percent for this team, if not more, so. Anything I can do for this team to help them win, I’ll do it.”
 

bosox188

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I was surprised to see Whitlock come in yesterday, now I wonder if it wasn't just to lock in a win, but to line him up with Houck's next start? I assume now their plan is to just start Whitlock in his place in Toronto.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I was surprised to see Whitlock come in yesterday, now I wonder if it wasn't just to lock in a win, but to line him up with Houck's next start? I assume now their plan is to just start Whitlock in his place in Toronto.
Makes sense. Might have also made sense to take advantage of the off-day Thursday to swap Houck and Wacha so Houck's turn wouldn't line up with the Toronto trip. Can't decide which is the better option.