Celtics vs. Nets, Round 1 Discussion

Who is your preferred opponent?

  • Cavs - I want an easy sweep

    Votes: 125 74.9%
  • Nets - I want to end their season / I like competitive basketball / DRAMA!!

    Votes: 42 25.1%

  • Total voters
    167
  • Poll closed .

Cellar-Door

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The idea nba forwards were not stronger in the past shows you are either young or unaware. This group of nba guys went to the Olympics and complained it was too physical. That would have been impossible. This speaks to the reffing. The NBA does not allow the physical play of the past.

As I have said in the past the nba went too far with physical play. There are not Rodney Rodgers, Anthony Mason, Danny Fortson, etc. That there is no room for a guy whose greatest/only asset was bulk and strength is good, but today's players are not stronger.

I also laugh at young fans insisting everybody today is more athletic. Skilled yes. What Olympic events are Curry, Luka, Jokic winning? The game is more about skill, and that is awesome. At one time all 2s were like Westbrook, more athleticism than skill.
Guys PLAYED more physical because of the rules, some of them were heavier, they weren't generally stronger. As to the guys you mention... Luka is incredibly agile for his size, Jokic too, even Steph.. it's pretty telling that you picked 3 guys you think of as not great athletes, all of whom would be very good athletes in past eras... Luka is similar size to Larry Bird, he's much quicker and more agile, he jumps higher, he's stronger. Jokic weighs 30 pounds more than Patrick Ewing, and he's a more agile player, and not significantly worse (probably better honestly) in most other athletic categories. Guys have way better training regimines, they lift weights better, they eat better, they start specialized training earlier.

I watched plenty of late 80s and 90's games, you're mistaking athleticism vs. peer with pure athleticism... it's like comparing the 80s to Russell.. Bill Russel was the best athlete in the NBA by a good margin, he was an Olympian.... he wouldn't have been an Olympian in the 80s/90s and his level of athleticism would not have been the best in the league.

The NBA wings and guards of today are bigger, stronger, jump higher and are more agile than their 90s counterparts, this isn't even close. I'm not sure why this is controversial, we have TONs of evidence in every single sport, the Olympics, pre-draft testing, that over time athletes have significantly improved in every area.


Edit- I'd also note, the NBA was more "physical" in the past for several reasons:
1. Guys had less skill
2. Teams and players were dumb about the value of the 3pt shot
3. The rules were different
4. The league made less money so nobody cared what happened to those guys.
 

Cellar-Door

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oh look it's what every single 3rd string wing in the NBA and half the G-League looks and jumps like.

Edit- to be less snarky, this really proves the point. Dominique was the FREAKIEST of freak athletes in his era, 6'8" (probably 6'6" or 6'7" with the way they measure now) great leaper, etc.... the NBA is loaded with guys who have the same leaping ability but are legit 6'6" to 6'10", every team has them. Dominique type athletes went from the absolute pinnacle to average, now there is a new level of freakshows well above that.
 
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benhogan

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No sport has ever been better in the past than the present, every present day star would crush in the past, just domination from start to finish.
Yep. There are dozens of reasons why top athletes are continuously improving. Nutrition, supplements, sleep, medicine, video analysis, advanced analytics, coaching, etc etc etc

It's basic evolution.

People romanticize the memories of the past stars
 

slamminsammya

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Yep. There are dozens of reasons why top athletes are continuously improving. Nutrition, supplements, sleep, medicine, video analysis, advanced analytics, coaching, etc etc etc

It's basic evolution.
The top reason is probably the pool of available human beings who play sports has grown exponentially, outpacing population growth because access to these sports has grown a ton.

Athletes are at the tail of the bell curve. You take the top 15 * 30 guys from that bell curve every year, but multiple the number of data points by several factors? The median guy in the NBA right now would probably be a very top athlete a few generations ago just by virtue of the statistics involved.
 

Deathofthebambino

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oh look it's what every single 3rd string wing in the NBA and half the G-League looks and jumps like.
Yeah, how many of those G League guys and 3rd stringers would average 25ppg against defenses that looked like this? If a guy like Durant thinks the C's are being too physical, and the refs are letting them get away with it, while he strolls to the line 20 fucking times a game, he would have broken in half and in tears in this era:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CM-IKDa8PiI
 

bakahump

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I though it was a Meh officiated game.....but I dont know my ass from my elbow.
@joe dokes what was interesting is that Unless I am totally brainfarting the Egregious calls all went the Nets way. Did the Celts get any "egregious calls"? I did mention and admit that they did give the make up call to Marcus after his collision with Theis.
 

Cellar-Door

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Yeah, how many of those G League guys and 3rd stringers would average 25ppg against defenses that looked like this? If a guy like Durant thinks the C's are being too physical, and the refs are letting them get away with it, while he strolls to the line 20 fucking times a game, he would have broken in half and in tears in this era:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CM-IKDa8PiI
They would adjust, KD struggles because he's not used to it, but also... it's less physicality than having a bunch of really great athletes stopping everything he wants to do and getting contests on his shots. A guy like Lambieer might push him off his spot, foul him hard, but also he cant jump like Tatum, Durant could shoot right over him.
Also they'd run half those guys off the court and dunk all over them in transition.
This idea that comparatively shitty athletes who played against mostly other comparatively bad athletes and were really physical would beat bigger better athletes is silliness. It's like arguing that if you sent NFL players back in time to the 1970s the headslap would so throw them they'd fail... no they'd adjust to the new rules and use the fact that they are significantly better athletes and more skilled to destroy teams.
 

Deathofthebambino

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They would adjust, KD struggles because he's not used to it, but also... it's less physicality than having a bunch of really great athletes stopping everything he wants to do and getting contests on his shots. A guy like Lambieer might push him off his spot, foul him hard, but also he cant jump like Tatum, Durant could shoot right over him.
Also they'd run half those guys off the court and dunk all over them in transition.
This idea that shitty athletes who played against mostly other bad athletes and were really physical would beat bigger better athletes is silliness. It's like arguing that if you sent NFL players back in time to the 1970s the headslap would so throw them they'd fail... no they'd adjust to the new rules and use the fact that they are significantly better athletes and more skilled to destroy teams.
I don't necessarily disagree with that, but you can't argue that guys like 'Nique, or Jordan or Bird, or Magic, or Isaiah, or Karl Malone, or David Robinson, or Hakeem, or Moses Malone or Patrick Ewing or Alex English were somehow less athletic than today's stars? When did this athleticism take this leap in body chemistry? Before or after the Kobe/McGrady/Vince Carter years?

Vince Carter was a rookie playing in 1998, and he was still scoring double digits in a game in 2020. How did he compete with those athletes who were 20 years younger if the game had passed him by?

I mean, I watched those dunk contests in the 1980's with Jordan and Dominique, etc., and frankly, I'm not seeing some insanely talented athletes that are so far superior to them now? And if we're going to say nutrition, supplements, trainers, etc. have helped the athleticism of guys in today's game, well, let's just say if you gave those advantages to a guy like Jordan and dropped him into today's foul line marathons, he's probably averaging 40ppg.
 

lovegtm

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Can we break this out into its own thread? This is a really good series, and historical discussions are pretty OT.
 

lexrageorge

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I think it's undisputable that a team of current NBA All Stars would wipe the floor of any of the All Star teams from the 80's or 90's, no matter which rules were applied. Today's players are physically far stronger and far more athletically gifted for the numerous reasons that have been noted in this thread and elsewhere.

But I think it's fair to say that give at least some of those earlier era athletes the same advantages in training, nutrition, etc, and they would thrive today.
 

PedroKsBambino

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It's also a bit of an unreasonable comparison in that players developed and played differently. If the exact same Larry Bird were born in 2000 he'd be stronger and he'd be one of the three best 3 pt shooters ever, by volume and percentage, and would score more than 30 points a game. He didn't in his era because of how players ate, worked out, and played...but it's not really reasonable to say "'let's assume the player doesn't change" when making the comparison. In my mind, you have to really compare guys within eras when assessing what they are---bodies, rules, game play all change. That stuff matters---you can't just assume it's a one-way change.
 

Deathofthebambino

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I think it's undisputable that a team of current NBA All Stars would wipe the floor of any of the All Star teams from the 80's or 90's, no matter which rules were applied. Today's players are physically far stronger and far more athletically gifted for the numerous reasons that have been noted in this thread and elsewhere.

But I think it's fair to say that give at least some of those earlier era athletes the same advantages in training, nutrition, etc, and they would thrive today.
So Scottie Pippen, listed as literally the exact same size as Jayson Tatum (6'8' 210) would get abused by Kevin Durant, using the rules of the 80's-90's? I couldn't disagree more. Rick Mahorn is basically the same size as Grant Williams, with 2 more inches. You know who wouldn't have had a game like he had yesterday in the 80's? Payton Prichard.

As much as it pains me to say it, two of the current stars who I think would thrive in that era, under those rules, are currently playing for the Sixers.

I won't make another post on this topic, just saw the call to break it out, and I agree with that.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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My guess is that the Nets try to feature Irving more on Saturday. The Celtics certainly had a lot to do with him being taken out of his game but the reality is, Brooklyn has no shot if they are featuring the others in lieu of Kyrie. As others have noted, having a game one performance isn't likely every time out but the Celtics shouldn't be expecting to hold him to ~4-13 shooting lines going forward either.
 

Deathofthebambino

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My guess is that the Nets try to feature Irving more on Saturday. The Celtics certainly had a lot to do with him being taken out of his game but the reality is, Brooklyn has no shot if they are featuring the others in lieu of Kyrie. As others have noted, having a game one performance isn't likely every time out but the Celtics shouldn't be expecting to hold him to ~4-13 shooting lines going forward either.
I noted yesterday in the game thread, but Kyrie appeared to want nothing to do with Marcus Smart yesterday. Nothing. He would come up the court, and there was Marcus meeting him about 5 feet after he passed half court. The Nets were being forced to run screens to get Marcus away from him way out there, so even if Marcus went under the screen, it wasn't like Kyrie was going to pull up from 35 feet. Then Kyrie ran off into the corner and hid. I don't know if that was a call that Ime made, or if Marcus decided to do it himself, but forcing that screen so far outside the 3 point line made it nearly impossible for Kyrie to come off a screen and launch a 3 over the help defender. And by the time he could get passed the screen to a place he could shoot from, Marcus had already made up the ground.
 

the moops

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I have to wonder if there is some advantage to having Simmons play this year in his grievance against the 76ers for his withheld pay. There is no reason for him to make a Cameo in game 4 except for the fact that 20 million can be very motivating.
Wouldn't him not playing strengthen his case?
 

Saints Rest

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I noted yesterday in the game thread, but Kyrie appeared to want nothing to do with Marcus Smart yesterday. Nothing. He would come up the court, and there was Marcus meeting him about 5 feet after he passed half court. The Nets were being forced to run screens to get Marcus away from him way out there, so even if Marcus went under the screen, it wasn't like Kyrie was going to pull up from 35 feet. Then Kyrie ran off into the corner and hid. I don't know if that was a call that Ime made, or if Marcus decided to do it himself, but forcing that screen so far outside the 3 point line made it nearly impossible for Kyrie to come off a screen and launch a 3 over the help defender. And by the time he could get passed the screen to a place he could shoot from, Marcus had already made up the ground.
I didn't see the whole game yesterday but I saw most of the 1st and all of the 4th. Certainly looked to me like Kyrie was faced up with ether Marcus or Jaylen almost all the time, both of whom got right up in his face. I wonder if both of them have a bit more advantage (compared to White) in terms of length and strength to limit Kyrie a bit.
 

sezwho

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I didn't see the whole game yesterday but I saw most of the 1st and all of the 4th. Certainly looked to me like Kyrie was faced up with ether Marcus or Jaylen almost all the time, both of whom got right up in his face. I wonder if both of them have a bit more advantage (compared to White) in terms of length and strength to limit Kyrie a bit.
Part of what struck me was how often Kyrie and Durant were double teamed particularly in the paint and didn’t make the Celtics pay. KD had five assists and Kyrie only one (Tatum had 10 and Brown 6 by comparison). It’s certainly not apples to apples, but it further highlights the frustration of the Nets stars.
 

BaseballJones

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Seriously. Kevin Durant would be Kevin Durant level awesome whether it was 1950, 1990, or 2040
My dad once said that while athletes are always improving as a general rule, the all time great players would be great in any era. There are just a few guys that I think are exceptions to that rule, as I can’t see George Mikan even making a modern NBA roster.
 

BaseballJones

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I think it was clear from context that the point was that star players of each era are better than their predecessors. The top stars of today would work any 1980's star (yes including Jordan), this idea that a bunch of slower guys less athletic guys many of whom aren't bigger, and few if any of whom are stronger than current players would "body them up so they couldn't play" is nonsense.
Nobody “works” prime Michael Jordan. They might fare better against him than Jordan’s contemporaries did, but nobody is taking prime Michael Jordan to school. Come on now.
 

Devizier

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Kevin Durant would have been awesome in any era

But there is no way he plays only 10 pounds less than Hakeem Olajuwon.

NBA physical measurements are only slightly more accurate than the old WWF ones (where the Undertaker would have been the same size as Shaq).
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I noted yesterday in the game thread, but Kyrie appeared to want nothing to do with Marcus Smart yesterday. Nothing. He would come up the court, and there was Marcus meeting him about 5 feet after he passed half court. The Nets were being forced to run screens to get Marcus away from him way out there, so even if Marcus went under the screen, it wasn't like Kyrie was going to pull up from 35 feet. Then Kyrie ran off into the corner and hid. I don't know if that was a call that Ime made, or if Marcus decided to do it himself, but forcing that screen so far outside the 3 point line made it nearly impossible for Kyrie to come off a screen and launch a 3 over the help defender. And by the time he could get passed the screen to a place he could shoot from, Marcus had already made up the ground.
Yeah the Celtics or someone on their side made it a point of emphasis to pick him up early and stay up into him after he enters half court. That said, we know he can go off against even elite defenses because he has done it before.

As a side note, Irving has his fourth highest TS% career-wise vs Boston.
 

BaseballJones

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oh look it's what every single 3rd string wing in the NBA and half the G-League looks and jumps like.

Edit- to be less snarky, this really proves the point. Dominique was the FREAKIEST of freak athletes in his era, 6'8" (probably 6'6" or 6'7" with the way they measure now) great leaper, etc.... the NBA is loaded with guys who have the same leaping ability but are legit 6'6" to 6'10", every team has them. Dominique type athletes went from the absolute pinnacle to average, now there is a new level of freakshows well above that.
The elite athletes in the 80s had incredible verticals.

View: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/467751-michael-jordan-dominates-the-vertical-jump-wherersquos-carter-and-kobe


All these guys had 40”+ verticals. Obviously guys have that today too but nobody is skying over prime Jordan, Dominique, Julius, Vince Carter, etc. There are more guys today that can get to this level but it’s not like the league is full of 50” verticals.
 

BaseballJones

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Kevin Durant would have been awesome in any era

But there is no way he plays only 10 pounds less than Hakeem Olajuwon.

NBA physical measurements are only slightly more accurate than the old WWF ones (where the Undertaker would have been the same size as Shaq).
Hakeem is one guy I think would easily translate from his prime back in the day into today’s game pretty effortlessly. He’s one of the most underrated all-timers ever.
 

koufax32

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Hot take alert


I get the sense that, if BOS is able to take a 3-0 or 3-1 lead, BKN, or at least Kyrie and KD, will fold like a tent. Their histories of thin skin and blame shifting (at least for Kyrie) make me think that they’d be more likely to start looking for scapegoats instead of solutions. I’d really love to have a chance to be proven right.
 

nighthob

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Exactly KD would have to beef up to play then. And it is not 100% he could.
Buck Williams was one of the best PFs of the 80s, and he weighed about 230. After beefing up. He was 6’8” 215 coming into the league. Let’s stop pretending that everyone back then looked like Karl Malone or Rick Mahorn, because they didn’t.
 

johnmd20

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I love the argument that NBA players today couldn't play in the 80s because cheap shot artist Bill Lamebeer used to punch everyone in the face when they went into the lane. Lamebeer would get murdered by these guys, physically and emotionally. He wouldn't not be able to keep up. Only a handful would.
 

BaseballJones

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I love the argument that NBA players today couldn't play in the 80s because cheap shot artist Bill Lamebeer used to punch everyone in the face when they went into the lane. Lamebeer would get murdered by these guys, physically and emotionally. He wouldn't not be able to keep up. Only a handful would.
He would get killed on D but he’d actually be solid offensively. He was way ahead of his time in that he was a center who could shoot the three.
 

nighthob

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Guys PLAYED more physical because of the rules, some of them were heavier, they weren't generally stronger. As to the guys you mention... Luka is incredibly agile for his size, Jokic too, even Steph.. it's pretty telling that you picked 3 guys you think of as not great athletes, all of whom would be very good athletes in past eras... Luka is similar size to Larry Bird, he's much quicker and more agile, he jumps higher, he's stronger. Jokic weighs 30 pounds more than Patrick Ewing, and he's a more agile player, and not significantly worse (probably better honestly) in most other athletic categories. Guys have way better training regimines, they lift weights better, they eat better, they start specialized training earlier.

I watched plenty of late 80s and 90's games, you're mistaking athleticism vs. peer with pure athleticism... it's like comparing the 80s to Russell.. Bill Russel was the best athlete in the NBA by a good margin, he was an Olympian.... he wouldn't have been an Olympian in the 80s/90s and his level of athleticism would not have been the best in the league.

The NBA wings and guards of today are bigger, stronger, jump higher and are more agile than their 90s counterparts, this isn't even close. I'm not sure why this is controversial, we have TONs of evidence in every single sport, the Olympics, pre-draft testing, that over time athletes have significantly improved in every area.


Edit- I'd also note, the NBA was more "physical" in the past for several reasons:
1. Guys had less skill
2. Teams and players were dumb about the value of the 3pt shot
3. The rules were different
4. The league made less money so nobody cared what happened to those guys.
I mean the 6’6” 225lb Calvin Natt was not only a pretty good PF in his era, he was pretty good post player in his era. Or all 6’7” 230lbs of Xavier McDaniel (of course that was after a few years in the league, coming out of Wichita he was more like 215 soaking wet). I remember going through this when people used to spout this nonsense about LBJ not being able to deal with the physicality of the 80s game. The man, in his prime, combined Karl Malone’s size with young MJ’s speed and leaping ability.

The fact is that most of today’s stars would steamroll the guys from the 80s. (Now I loved the game back then too, I just acknowledge that these comparisons between eras are futile.)
 
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nighthob

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It's also a bit of an unreasonable comparison in that players developed and played differently. If the exact same Larry Bird were born in 2000 he'd be stronger and he'd be one of the three best 3 pt shooters ever, by volume and percentage, and would score more than 30 points a game. He didn't in his era because of how players ate, worked out, and played...but it's not really reasonable to say "'let's assume the player doesn't change" when making the comparison. In my mind, you have to really compare guys within eras when assessing what they are---bodies, rules, game play all change. That stuff matters---you can't just assume it's a one-way change.
He also wouldn’t be the player we remember because he was born in this century and had access to modern training regimens.
 

nighthob

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Kevin Durant would have been awesome in any era

But there is no way he plays only 10 pounds less than Hakeem Olajuwon.

NBA physical measurements are only slightly more accurate than the old WWF ones (where the Undertaker would have been the same size as Shaq).
In fairness, Andre actually was that big (my brother and I once ran into him in a bar, I had never before seen a human being sitting on a high bar stool with his feet on the ground and his knees that high up in the air). Also, it’s possible that Durant is only ten pounds lighter because The Dream was really only 6’9”/6’10” and not his his listed height.
 

PedroKsBambino

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He also wouldn’t be the player we remember because he was born in this century and had access to modern training regimens.
Agreed, and that's part of my point....we shouldn't really compare 1980s Larry Bird to 2020 Jayson Tatum so much as we should try to imagin what a "born in 2000" Larry Bird would be and how that version would compare to someone today.

I've said in other threads that I believe he'd be a better version of Doncic---he's a better shooter, rebounder, and defender and likely also a better passer (though complicated a bit by role).
 

nighthob

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Agreed, and that's part of my point....we shouldn't really compare 1980s Larry Bird to 2020 Jayson Tatum so much as we should try to imagin what a "born in 2000" Larry Bird would be and how that version would compare to someone today.
The futility of cross era comparisons is my point and you can’t have it!
 

Jimbodandy

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You guys were luckier than I was. I took a tennis ball to my left eye fucking around one night in high school with some friends. The fuzz cut through the cornea all the way to the lens, and I was in an eye patch (arrgghh) for like 6 weeks, and I lost some of my vision in my left eye. To this day, if I close my eyes and look at a light, I have a small black line in the field of vision where the scratch was. Never really got it looked at years later, but I've always guessed it's some kind of scar thing.
That's fucking frightening. Scratched cornea sucks from the time you get it until doc slaps the hard lens on. A few hours of shit, then it's fine.

Can we break this out into its own thread? This is a really good series, and historical discussions are pretty OT.
Yes. Or can we extend the conversation to how dropping Monday's marathon winner into the 1920 race would give him a 23 minute advantage on his peers.
 

Five Cent Head

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No discussion about the No Goal tend that turned into a Nets3? Or the way Thies nailed Smart (after being pushed) somehow was a boston Foul? (Granted Smart took a make up charge the next play down).
For what it's worth, they didn't call a Boston foul on that, the ball just rolled out of bounds so the Nets got possession. Not that this really takes away from your point.
 

Saints Rest

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No discussion about the No Goal tend that turned into a Nets3? Or the way Thies nailed Smart (after being pushed) somehow was a boston Foul? (Granted Smart took a make up charge the next play down).

I think for the most part NYNs have had a pretty good whistle, while the Celts have been getting mauled when driving. If not for JBs and JTs finishing ability this would be a major issue.
Yesterday there was a pretty notable non-call that favored the Celtics: just a few seconds before the (Left) Hand of God shot, Tatum got away with a severe push-off against Kyrie (actually knocked KI off his feet, and it did not look like a dive). If the refs call that (and I was certain they would in real time), then Smart doesn't make that drive, which not only would have taken away the points, but would have taken away the huge momentum surge that added to the Garden crowd's fire.
 

Eddie Jurak

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If Brooklyn gets Simmons back, it might be a kind of mixed bag for them.

There's one big, obvious advantage - defense. Simmons guards Tatum, Brown guards Brown, and KD takes a corner shooter ans helps on drives. It takes a big strain off of KD without missing a beat on D (assuming, of course, that SImmons comes back and is effective right away).

But what happens on offense? There, Simmons is much more of a liability. Bruce Brown shot 3-4 from three in yesterday's game. He averages only 1.9 attempts per 36 and his 3 makes tied a career high for him. He's not a shooter and the Celtics did not treat him as one. Time and time again, Bruce Brown is a guy they helped off off. In the Marcus Smart Boston Globe article, at least 2 of the 5 plays Smart broke down were plays where his man was Bruce Brown in the corner and Smart all but ignored him to make plays.

Without Simmons, the next start KD, KI, Curry, Drummond, Brown. Who do they take off the floor to add Simmons? If they take Brown off, they give back some of what they gain. Replace one guy who the defense helpds off of with a better one. If they take Curry off, now there are no shooters on the floor with KD and KI and 2 guys that Celtic defenders can feel free to help off of. If they take Drummond off, the KD at the 5 option, that might be best for them. But won't that give Horford a chance to post him up and make him work on D and maybe pick up fouls? They could, I suppose, have Simmons guard Horford, but that goes right back to KD on Tatum.

It will be hard to integrate Simmons in a productive way, even though he could be an immediate asset on D if he is really ready to return.
 

reggiecleveland

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Hot take alert


I get the sense that, if BOS is able to take a 3-0 or 3-1 lead, BKN, or at least Kyrie and KD, will fold like a tent. Their histories of thin skin and blame shifting (at least for Kyrie) make me think that they’d be more likely to start looking for scapegoats instead of solutions. I’d really love to have a chance to be proven right.
That's the word on the talking heads circuit. There is also a lot of "Nash is being outcoached." I hope for combination of KD and Kyrie quitting and blaming their coach. This is a massive game for both teams. The Celtics seems to have the killer instinct for a few months now, so they are not goiung to Brooklyn for a split.
 

Auger34

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Hot take alert


I get the sense that, if BOS is able to take a 3-0 or 3-1 lead, BKN, or at least Kyrie and KD, will fold like a tent. Their histories of thin skin and blame shifting (at least for Kyrie) make me think that they’d be more likely to start looking for scapegoats instead of solutions. I’d really love to have a chance to be proven right.
No you had it right. Both KD and Kyrie have history of blame shifting and thin skin.

Someone mentioned it up above but to me it didn’t look like Kyrie wanted any of Smart and basically decided he was going to be a decoy. That mixed with his incredibly weird press conference makes me think that if the Celtics can weather the storm in Game 3 and keep it close, that Irving will be ready to quit.

Then after that we can all wait and see who Durant and Irving try to pin the blame on for their shortcomings
 

SteveF

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Jul 14, 2005
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I think Nash is doing OK. He made the right defensive adjustments in game 2. We'll see what it actually looks like once the Celtics see it on film and play game 3.
People keep talking about setting screens for Durant, but the Celtics will just switch it. That's kinda the whole point of the way they play defense. And further, do Kyrie and KD really want to be coached on offense? KD noped out of the GSW and Kyrie "I could be a head coach" Irving is the only one that coaches Kyrie.
And to be honest, sets stop working against good defenses anyway. Once you get to a certain level of defense, the only thing that gets open shots consistently in the half court is a guy who can consistently force the defense to commit two to the ball and make the right pass out of that. The Nets issue right now is that neither KD nor Kyrie have the kind of court vision and court organization that, for example, a James Harden has.
I'll be interested to see if Simmons ends up on the ball for them at some point (Edit: Next year, obviously). That's hard to imagine given Kyrie/KD will be dictating what happens, but it might be their best way forward offensively.
 

Toe Nash

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Jul 28, 2005
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Hot take alert


I get the sense that, if BOS is able to take a 3-0 or 3-1 lead, BKN, or at least Kyrie and KD, will fold like a tent. Their histories of thin skin and blame shifting (at least for Kyrie) make me think that they’d be more likely to start looking for scapegoats instead of solutions. I’d really love to have a chance to be proven right.
Not a hot take. I have $50 on a Celtics sweep for this very reason (and I think mostly Kyrie would be the issue). I don't think they will "quit" as they're professionals who want to win, but the more they face adversity the less they may play as a team, and then the easier they are to defend / score on. I think you might even see it if there's a double digit C's lead in the second half on Saturday.

You saw this on a couple possessions last night when the crowd really started getting into it and Kyrie just took the ball into multiple defenders with basically no intention of passing. He wanted to shut the crowd up...which worked in Game 1, but not in game 2. It feels like they would both play hero ball if down in the second half.
 

Kliq

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Mar 31, 2013
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In fairness, Andre actually was that big (my brother and I once ran into him in a bar, I had never before seen a human being sitting on a high bar stool with his feet on the ground and his knees that high up in the air). Also, it’s possible that Durant is only ten pounds lighter because The Dream was really only 6’9”/6’10” and not his his listed height.
Andre was somewhere around 6'10".
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Mar 26, 2005
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Kevin Durant would have been awesome in any era

But there is no way he plays only 10 pounds less than Hakeem Olajuwon.

NBA physical measurements are only slightly more accurate than the old WWF ones (where the Undertaker would have been the same size as Shaq).
Since you made this comment, I can't help but agree. KD is listed at 240. So is Giannis. Those 2 don't weigh the same.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Mar 26, 2005
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I thought the Nets were much better on defense last night. BKN cleaned up their issues on the defensive boards and cut way down on the number of rim attempts by the C's. The C's just made more/tougher shots than they did in game 1.

On the other hand, the Nets shot distribution was god awful. 43.42% rim or 3 frequency (56%! of their shots were midrange jumpers) and a rim frequency of 15.8% (NBA average is 28.9%). Their average 2 point shot distance was 12.5 feet (league average is 6.7), which would have been the largest average 2 point shot distance in a single game by any team in the regular season this year by over 1 foot.
Thanks for compiling these. Some more stats from this Deadspin article:
  • The Nets have run more iso sets than every playoff team except Philadelphia.
  • KD's ISO frequency has ballooned to 23 percent from his regular season when he shot 51 percent in isolation. In the playoffs, the Celtics defense has bothered him into shooting a dreary 10 percent from the field in iso sets.
  • KD’s 20 percentTO frequency in isolations is the second-worst of any player with more than three possessions per game, just ahead of James Harden’s 19.2 percent.
  • KI's ISO frequency has jumped from 21.8 percent to 32.6 percent from the regular season to the postseason.
  • BRK is averaging 37 unassisted pull-up jumpers a game and making only 36.5 percent of their shots. Meanwhile, Brooklyn is shooting better than all 15 of their playoff peers on assisted catch and shoot triples but attempting fewer than anyone else in the field.