My post was shitty. What I was trying to say is that the Patriots do not draw defensive penalties at all. At least I don't remember them. Like, never. Again, it could be confirmation bias but maybe we get a stray offside here or there but never the kind that is the result of the defense having to be concerned about the passing game -- like defensive holding, contact, PI. Heck I can't even remember a hands to the face.They had a 39 yard defensive PI yesterday on Jonathan Jones against Hollywood Brown in the 2nd quarter. Flipped the field ARZ 34 to NE 27. But other than that, agree. Not many facemasks or defensive holding or even PI. Playing pretty clean.
There was the roughing on the pick six at the Jets, and I remember 1 or 2 long ish PI calls in a recent home win (Indy?). But yeah they feel few and far between.My post was shitty. What I was trying to say is that the Patriots do not draw defensive penalties at all. At least I don't remember them. Like, never. Again, it could be confirmation bias but maybe we get a stray offside here or there but never the kind that is the result of the defense having to be concerned about the passing game -- like defensive holding, contact, PI. Heck I can't even remember a hands to the face.
This is all my untrained eye, but when I get arm envy watching other QBs is on quick, often short throws. When Mac has a second to set and get his mechanics smooth, he throws a good ball. But often when he’s moving or rushed or on just little screens or outs, his ball always seems arced and slow and wobbly. Not that McCoy throws 30 yard seams rolling out. But his arm and many other’s just look stronger and more accurate with tighter spirals than Mac has.What better looking balls? I'm asking seriously? When Mac had time to go downfield and his receivers got open, he threw perfectly good balls. Repeatedly. Colt McCoy completed 3 passes last night that were over 20 yards (two for 21 and one for 23 to be exact), one was a ridiculous one handed catch to Robbie Anderson, one was a short pass to Clement that he turned up and one was to a wide open Hopkins. If Mac makes that throw to Anderson, people are bitching that he didn't put it on him because it might have went for a score. On a huge 4th down play, he had Hollywood Brown running free behind the secondary and missed him. Hollywood should have caught it with the dive, but again, if Mac misses that throw, people are apoplectic around here.
But hey, if Mac hits an open receiver, it's just "well, any QB can hit that throw."
Yeah, I think it could be as simple as that. I think everything works in tandem and when your offense is good and you're doing a good job at deception -- in runs and passes -- that defenders have too much to think about and you can get open and draw penalties better. And we don't do that. So it's probably a whole offense kind of thing rather than something you can attribute to any one player. Defensive penalties are so great because most of them are an automatic first down and so when you get a couple in a game it makes such a difference.Jsut re-reading your post @DennyDoyle'sBoil - now I see the key word "draw". Sorry, since I am at work now I sometimes skim. But wouldn't drawing defensive penalties be the result of having truly good players that the opposing defenses needed to hold / grab etc. in order to slow them down? I do not think the last few editions of the Patriots have had any players like that.
Yes. OL not blocking well, so the DL doesn't need an extra edge and our rushers don't get into the secondary that often. WR not getting open because they're not that good (or our best WR are hurt). Even if they get open, either Mac is too hurried to hit them, or they drop the ball. So nothing to worry about; therefore fewer defensive penalties. Rinse, repeat.Yeah, I think it could be as simple as that. I think everything works in tandem and when your offense is good and you're doing a good job at deception -- in runs and passes -- that defenders have too much to think about and you can get open and draw penalties better. And we don't do that. So it's probably a whole offense kind of thing rather than something you can attribute to any one player. Defensive penalties are so great because most of them are an automatic first down and so when you get a couple in a game it makes such a difference.
I don't want to relitigate Brady, but I don't think any concerns (fair or not) about him throwing the deep ball ever had anything to do with his arm strength. I think Brady was the best intermediate range passer there ever was, precisely because of the combination of arm strength and accuracy he had on those routes. I think he had an intermediate game that seemed comparable to a normal QB's short game. To the extent I ever questioned him about the deep ball, it was never about whether his arm was strong enough to get the ball deep.This is all my untrained eye, but when I get arm envy watching other QBs is on quick, often short throws. When Mac has a second to set and get his mechanics smooth, he throws a good ball. But often when he’s moving or rushed or on just little screens or outs, his ball always seems arced and slow and wobbly. Not that McCoy throws 30 yard seams rolling out. But his arm and many other’s just look stronger and more accurate with tighter spirals than Mac has.
Even when Brady supposedly had a “weak” arm and couldn’t throw deep, he would still zip balls to receivers. Can’t remember who, but I do recall a WR new to the Patriots commenting on how hard the ball comes out of Brady’s hand on short throws.
I'm not impressed by the screen game, but maybe it is the best they can do with the line they have. Mac's best throws this year have been downfield, but his protection has been so bad that they cannot just let him air it out.The reality is that the Patriots don't have an offensive line that can consistently hold up in pass protection to be a high-volume deep passing attack, and the line is also struggling to block traditional runs as well to be a run-first team. Plus, the quarterback turned the ball over at an alarming rate when they aired it out in the first three weeks of the season.
Instead, the coaching staff has pivoted to maximizing the game-breaking ability of three-phase weapon Marcus Jones and others to keep the chains moving, hopefully break a few big plays off the quick-game, screens, and RPOs, and take timely shots downfield.
When you have a shaky offensive line and a quarterback who doesn't thrive out of structure in playground mode, this is what you do, for better or worse, and it's not about a defensive coach calling offensive plays.
WHile I agree his best throws have been downfield, I think some of that is a product of.. he's only taking getting downfield throws now when the protection is great and the guy is wide open. They threw deep a lot more early in the year when the line played better and Mac struggled badly.I don't want to relitigate Brady, but I don't think any concerns (fair or not) about him throwing the deep ball ever had anything to do with his arm strength. I think Brady was the best intermediate range passer there ever was, precisely because of the combination of arm strength and accuracy he had on those routes. I think he had an intermediate game that seemed comparable to a normal QB's short game. To the extent I ever questioned him about the deep ball, it was never about whether his arm was strong enough to get the ball deep.
Anyway, Brady focused a ton on his mechanics. Mac needs to do the same, even moreso than Brady did, because he doesn't have anyhere near the arm of Brady. He cannot afford to pay what bad mechanics costs him. He has shown these past couple of games that he can get the ball downfield with accuracy (not like Brady of course) when he has the time and his mechanics are right.
Evan Lazar's article (someone posted the tweet linking to it above) was pretty interesting.
https://www.patriots.com/news/after-further-review-the-patriots-offense-might-ve-found-a-formula-vs-cardinals
I'm not impressed by the screen game, but maybe it is the best they can do with the line they have. Mac's best throws this year have been downfield, but his protection has been so bad that they cannot just let him air it out.
I do think it made a difference having all of that speed out there on the field. Not just Marcus Jones, but also Strong and Thornton. Thornton's numbers looked lousy (4 catches, 28 yards, long of 12), but he seems to have the quickness to gain a few yards on a screen even when the defense is there.
The Patriots are -23 in net penalties this season--they've had 80 enforced against them and 57 against the opponents. The have committed the 11th most penalties (Denver has committed 97) but they have been the beneficiary of the lowest amount in the league.Yeah, I think it could be as simple as that. I think everything works in tandem and when your offense is good and you're doing a good job at deception -- in runs and passes -- that defenders have too much to think about and you can get open and draw penalties better. And we don't do that. So it's probably a whole offense kind of thing rather than something you can attribute to any one player. Defensive penalties are so great because most of them are an automatic first down and so when you get a couple in a game it makes such a difference.
That is an unbelievable stat for so many reasons for a BB teamThe Patriots are -23 in net penalties this season--they've had 80 enforced against them and 57 against the opponents. The have committed the 11th most penalties (Denver has committed 97) but they have been the beneficiary of the lowest amount in the league.
I can't find the breakdown regarding units. That said the 5 teams that have drawn the least number of penalties is: NE, Chicago, Miami, Baltimore, and Indianapolis.
Where it really adds up is net yards lost. They Patriots are at -214, the worst in the league. That's 27% (!!!!!!!) higher (lower???) than the Bears, who are #2 at -168. That's crazy. Even though these yards are on both sides of the ball, our offense is still having to overcome a lot--it could be putting them in longer down and distance situations and it's extending opponent's drives, meaning they're giving up more points, leading our offense to have less margin for error.
2021: +3 net penalties
2020: +20
2019: +15
SIte: NFL Penalties - 2022 League Penalty Stats - View by Total - NFL Penalty Stats Tracker - Data From 2009-2022That is an unbelievable stat for so many reasons for a BB team
We also have a big home/road split. We are tied for 5th FEWEST penalties committed at home, but tied for 4th MOST committed on the road.The Patriots are -23 in net penalties this season--they've had 80 enforced against them and 57 against the opponents. The have committed the 11th most penalties (Denver has committed 97) but they have been the beneficiary of the lowest amount in the league.
I can't find the breakdown regarding units. That said the 5 teams that have drawn the least number of penalties is: NE, Chicago, Miami, Baltimore, and Indianapolis.
Where it really adds up is net yards lost. They Patriots are at -214, the worst in the league. That's 27% (!!!!!!!) higher (lower???) than the Bears, who are #2 at -168. That's crazy. Even though these yards are on both sides of the ball, our offense is still having to overcome a lot--it could be putting them in longer down and distance situations and it's extending opponent's drives, meaning they're giving up more points, leading our offense to have less margin for error.
2021: +3 net penalties
2020: +20
2019: +15
Want to hear a weird stat? We actually don't have many third down plays/game--only 12.5/game and 163 total--that's 22nd in the league.We have an offense that does not make very much happen. Most series seem to go to third down.
And something that sucks about this--the Patriots have the best average starting field position in the NFL. So it starts promising...Over large samples around 45% of all penalties are committed by offensive linemen. So I guess when you go from having one of the best OL in the league on a consistent basis to a total dumpster fire, this is what happens.
The Pats don't draw opposition holding calls because the refs simply do not call when Judon and Uche are held. Every single game Judon is held on nearly every play and the ref will not throw the flags. Once you look for it it's impossible to miss.Over large samples around 45% of all penalties are committed by offensive linemen. So I guess when you go from having one of the best OL in the league on a consistent basis to a total dumpster fire, this is what happens.
It is a little surprising that the Patriots don't force more opposition OL penalties, however, given the strength of our pass rush. That could be a blitz tendency thing I suppose.
It's hard to know how to square that with being 28th in the league in first downs, though. If we're not getting them on first and second down, and we don't have many third downs, what can that mean? That we just don't get many series? It could mean that we turnover the ball a lot on first and second down but I don't think that should make an appreciable difference.Want to hear a weird stat? We actually don't have many third down plays/game--only 12.5/game and 163 total--that's 22nd in the league.
They're 27th in number of total plays. 18th in Yds per playWant to hear a weird stat? We actually don't have many third down plays/game--only 12.5/game and 163 total--that's 22nd in the league.
They are 7th in # of drives but 27th in # of plays. Need to get 1st downs to get more plays. 28th in 1st downs.It's hard to know how to square that with being 28th in the league in first downs, though. If we're not getting them on first and second down, and we don't have many third downs, what can that mean? That we just don't get many series? It could mean that we turnover the ball a lot on first and second down but I don't think that should make an appreciable difference.
Edit: Ahh, field position could be a big factor.
This is kind of where I'm at. I wind up defending Patricia a lot, not because I'm pro-Patricia really but because I'm agnostic and because I can see how all the different issues with the O make it difficult to design something functional.I'm no Patricia guy, but I think part of it is due to the fact that I watch the Patriots the most and Kyle Shanahan would likely drive me up a wall if I watched the Niners all the time. I just kinda wonder if anyone could do well with this mismatch of overall offensive talent. The line can't hold up well enough to attack deep or even in the intermediary, so safeties can play closer to the line. We have great RBs, but our TEs can't block very well, so more defenders in the box make it harder to run (bless Rhamondre). We can lament Henry whiffing on block after block, but I'm not sure what else Mac or MP are supposed to do - it's just a limitation of Hunter Henry the player and the limitations of Jonnu are worse. The options on offense seem very, very limited and I can't help but think that moderate improvements at tackle would result in significant improvements across the offense, particularly for Mac.
I think it also means when things are going well for the offense, it's usually via chunk plays rather than repeatedly converting first downs. If you get a 25-yarder on 2nd down, you don't face a third down. I wouldn't characterize the offense as "explosive," but it's closer to explosive than consistent.It's hard to know how to square that with being 28th in the league in first downs, though. If we're not getting them on first and second down, and we don't have many third downs, what can that mean? That we just don't get many series? It could mean that we turnover the ball a lot on first and second down but I don't think that should make an appreciable difference.
He points out its silly to think its all play-calling or Patricia being stupid. He points out that offensive line turnover and injuries, coupled with Harris being out is a big deal, and believes that you can win with a strong defense, minimizing turnovers, and a good running game. I think he calls that last part a recipe for winning in December. His overall take seems to be that most of the people criticizing the team have no clue what they are saying. He seems to apportion blame based on the play or the game etc, but I would hardly call him a shill.This isn’t the right thread for this but I am not sure where to put it….
Does anyone follow Matt Chatham on Twitter? Has he always been such a shill? Literally every post is leaning into some sort of victim hood and acting like everything is completely fine with the Patriots. Any sort of suggestion otherwise is just being negative
While not a popular take, I think this is the right one. This team is clearly not as talented as the best teams on offense but their D is legit. While everyone - including Mac apparently (leaving his role aside) - wants a more dynamic offense but they simply don't have the personnel for that so they are going with what has worked thus far.He points out its silly to think its all play-calling or Patricia being stupid. He points out that offensive line turnover and injuries, coupled with Harris being out is a big deal, and believes that you can win with a strong defense, minimizing turnovers, and a good running game. I think he calls that last part a recipe for winning in December. His overall take seems to be that most of the people criticizing the team have no clue what they are saying. He seems to apportion blame based on the play or the game etc, but I would hardly call him a shill.
Think about it before the season we thought the team would be 10-7 or 9-8. Even when Jones struggled and we had Hoyer and Zappe in there people were acting like this was the dynasty years. The team is 7-6 and in the hunt despite offensive line struggles, injuries to key players, having 3 QBs start games, and a new offensive staff and changes to the system. To me last year it seemed they realized they could not beat teams like the Bills (they had hit a ceiling) with a low scoring low risk offense even if they had a decent or good D. So they tried to push the ball down the field more and put more of the game on Jones shoulders. For a variety of reasons that did not work, so now they are back to taking less risk, getting the ball out quick, and trying to win with last years formula. We are playing meaningful football and it is almost Christmas. While frustrating and then some to me (this season), people are wildly unrealistic when it comes to this year's team.
Honestly, I thought Zappe showed real potential in limited action, so I’d draft another QB in the first 3 rounds somewhere and let them compete. Mac can go to some reclamation team for a 5th. It’s possible he could succeed with a reset somewhere, stranger things have happened,Mac was shit.
At this point, its just a question of how to move forward. He's almost certainly not the answer but signing some mediocre veteran QB for 15-20mm per year in the offseason doesn't sound like a great plan either.
I think you just build your surrounding talent in FA and then go into the draft with a real open mind about BPA at another position of need versus QB.
Mac is broken. I think you give him an offseason (and hopefully an improved offense) to try to get get fixed, and give him a opportunity to win the job in camp next year. Unless there is an opportunity to add a QB who will make a real difference.Mac was shit.
At this point, its just a question of how to move forward. He's almost certainly not the answer but signing some mediocre veteran QB for 15-20mm per year in the offseason doesn't sound like a great alternative.
I think you just build your surrounding talent in FA and then go into the draft with a very open mind about BPA at another position of need versus QB.
I think the CHI game made clear that Zappe probably has even more physical limitations than Mac.Honestly, I thought Zappe showed real potential in limited action, so I’d draft another QB in the first 3 rounds somewhere and let them compete. Mac can go to some reclamation team for a 5th. It’s possible he could succeed with a reset somewhere, stranger things have happened,
I'd be fine with just playing Zappe the rest of the year. I'm not sure how much promise he really has but I think we'd get more useful information about him in those three games than we would about Mac.Honestly, I thought Zappe showed real potential in limited action, so I’d draft another QB in the first 3 rounds somewhere and let them compete. Mac can go to some reclamation team for a 5th. It’s possible he could succeed with a reset somewhere, stranger things have happened,
I don't think you can take too much from that game, particularly given the conditions that night. He seems to have some pretty good pocket awareness and read progression, which I'd argue is the most important skill for an NFL QB. It's not going to get you to elite, but it's going to get you over the hump of being a playable NFL QB on a weekly basis. I do still think you draft another QB as well.I think the CHI game made clear that Zappe probably has even more physical limitations than Mac.
I think it's unlikely they can draft a real replacement this year, so I'd lean towards building the talent around him and bring in someone like Brissett to compete for the job, an inexpensive vet who has a more diverse skillset.
It's a tough call. That's a pretty rough gauntlet on which to judge a rookie QB and risk shattering his confidence, but maybe that's what you need to do in the modern NFL. Throw them to the fire immediately and see what happens.I'd be fine with just playing Zappe the rest of the year. I'm not sure how much promise he really has but I think we'd get more useful information about him in those three games than we would about Mac.
They're currently .500 with someone much worse than a JAG. I think that’s why a JAG and a stud WR is what you really need if the defense and RB corp remain as good (or maybe slightly better) next season.Mac is broken. I think you give him an offseason (and hopefully an improved offense) to try to get get fixed, and give him a opportunity to win the job in camp next year. Unless there is an opportunity to add a QB who will make a real difference.
I don;t think bringing in a JAG at $15 M to hopefully go .500 is the solution to anything.
This made me laugh. How fucking pissed would everyone be if they named Hoyer the starter next year? LOL.Mac was lousy today against a terrible D and in the least hostile road environment imaginable.
I’d really like to see him get to work with an actual OC and QB coach again before we totally write him off. But we should at the very least bring in a vet this offseason who could plausibly start. And that doesn’t mean Brian freakin’ Hoyer.
The Globe had a few stories this past summer highlighting all of his off season work with coaches and nutrionists. He was ready to take the next step! Apparently he was not.Mac was lousy today against a terrible D and in the least hostile road environment imaginable.
I’d really like to see him get to work with an actual OC and QB coach again before we totally write him off. But we should at the very least bring in a vet this offseason who could plausibly start. And that doesn’t mean Brian freakin’ Hoyer.
I’m still pissed that Bill brought Hoyer back this season. He sucks. Really sucks. If Bill wanted him around to coach he should have convinced him to be an actual coach. That he thought Hoyer could be a functional backup QB is another mark against his decision making this year.This made me laugh. How fucking pissed would everyone be if they named Hoyer the starter next year? LOL.
If Brissett is cheap that wouldn;t be a terrible idea.I think the CHI game made clear that Zappe probably has even more physical limitations than Mac.
I think it's unlikely they can draft a real replacement this year, so I'd lean towards building the talent around him and bring in someone like Brissett to compete for the job, an inexpensive vet who has a more diverse skillset.
It would be a horrible idea, although not as bad as trotting Mac back out there. Today, -19.6 completion percentage above expectation. Very little pressure all day. And capping it off with an attitude, mouthing off at coaches. Can’t really believe what has happened with the franchise.If Brissett is cheap that wouldn;t be a terrible idea.
Name the better option.I’m still pissed that Bill brought Hoyer back this season. He sucks. Really sucks. If Bill wanted him around to coach he should have convinced him to be an actual coach. That he thought Hoyer could be a functional backup QB is another mark against his decision making this year.
Anyone.Name the better option.