I wonder what happens if it is arguably legal in the DR but not here. Do we play cultural relativism with statutory rape?
This is the tricky part.So if he met her family and everyone said she was 18, is he really at fault?
We don’t know the details, but what if they showed him a fake ID or birth certificate? If her family was in on it, it probably wouldn’t be the craziest thing for a Dominican family to try and set up their daughter with a rich and successful athlete.
This seems pretty murky and Wander is probably going to miss a decent chunk of time while this investigation plays out.
As long as we're purely speculating:So if he met her family and everyone said she was 18, is he really at fault?
We don’t know the details, but what if they showed him a fake ID or birth certificate? If her family was in on it, it probably wouldn’t be the craziest thing for a Dominican family to try and set up their daughter with a rich and successful athlete.
This seems pretty murky and Wander is probably going to miss a decent chunk of time while this investigation plays out.
Whelp. . .that tells you how serious they think it is on a first impression.Franco will be on the restricted list for at least TB’s current road trip, which is six games/one week.
Looks like the Rays and Franco agreed on this.Especially since the restricted list is usually unpaid, so you'd think either Franco or the union or both had to sign off on that.
One of the first things I saw was she was 14 with a baby, so who knows what's true? No sense dragging anyone through the mud with limited information.This is still pretty fresh, so alot of speculation out there. I've seen claims the girl is 14 and some claim 18 with a baby.
Not sure if I'm concerned that there are websites like this, but according to AgeOfConsent.com, there is no Romeo & Juliet exception in the DR.Devil's in the details on this one.
First, the general inference seems to be all this took place in the DR, which probably has the following implications:
1) The DR has a general age of consent (AFAIK) of 18? If there are specific "Romeo and Juliet" exceptions for parties being within a few years of each other across the age of consent line, I do not know them. Likewise, if the DR isn't strict liability (where you can assert you were mislead and thus avoid liability), I don't know. So, criminal/civil liability in the DR will depend on not only the ages of the parties, but the law of that country.
https://web.archive.org/web/20110228145630/http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2009/wha/136110.htmThe law covers statutory rape, and the age of consent is 18. Penalties for statutory rape are 10 to 20 years in prison and a fine of 100,000 to 200,000 pesos ($2,778 to $5, 556) if rape is committed against a child or adolescent.
It's not her age today that matters so much. It's her age when she had the relationship with Wander.This is still pretty fresh, so alot of speculation out there. I've seen claims the girl is 14 and some claim 18 with a baby.
It's been really hard to get good information on all of this. You can start going down rabbit holes online (i started to even in like 15-20 minutes of digging)....many who claim to be from the Dominican say she is 19 or 20 (maybe a year or two younger at time of pic?) and others claim that she was in fact underage, but Wander didn't have any relationship with her outside of friends/family gatherings and that the pic was taken out of context deliberately to extort him.It's not her age today that matters so much. It's her age when she had the relationship with Wander.
I think there's some pretty convincing arguments that some of the pictures can "date" Wander re: his tattoos. But those might have been taken early or late in the relationship.
To be a touch more clear, "strict liability" is not the proper term if you want to search for it (although it's sometimes used as a shorthand.)Didn't find anything one way or the other on strict liability on quick search.
I did some quick Googling. Here's one example:Devil's in the details on this one.
First, the general inference seems to be all this took place in the DR, which probably has the following implications:
1) The DR has a general age of consent (AFAIK) of 18? If there are specific "Romeo and Juliet" exceptions for parties being within a few years of each other across the age of consent line, I do not know them. Likewise, if the DR isn't strict liability (where you can assert you were mislead and thus avoid liability), I don't know. So, criminal/civil liability in the DR will depend on not only the ages of the parties, but the law of that country.
2) Even given the written DR law (whatever it is) the social culture of the DR is not the same as the US.
3) Baseball is looking into this on their own and will make determinations that stand outside the criminal authorities reaction to the issue. e.g., Trevor Bauer. How much they will be swayed by the law/local culture of the DR is an open question.
So, really the devil is in the details. Their relative ages and the kinds of relationships they had at what points in time being the biggest things here, obviously.
I can see discipline issuing if the numbers look bad. e.g., he was >20 having sex with a 14 or 15 year old.
Does it really matter if the mother is also a bad actor?
I suppose in a moral sense it goes to if he knew or should have known his girlfriend's age. But there I think, she'd have age-peer friends, attend a specific school, have or not have a driver's license, etc. etc. There's any number of ways one could know - this isn't alleged to be a one-night-stand with a 17 year old who claims they're 18.
I suppose it also might factor in if the mother knew the girl was technically underage - 17 years, 9 months, and approved anyway. But the alleged facts are nowhere near that.
In Texas, the age of consent is 17 years old. So, consent laws say that if someone who is 17 or older has sex with someone under the age of consent, it can be considered underage sex with a minor. However, this leaves much room for consenting sexual relationships among teens to turn into illegal acts because one had a birthday and crossed into the adult sphere of law.
That’s why some states, including Texas, created Romeo and Juliet laws. These laws state that a sexual relationship can avoid being considered sex with a minor if the following criteria are met:
- They are no more than three years older than their sexual partner
- Their sexual partner was at least 14 years old
- Their sexual relationship was consensual between both persons
- They were not already a registered sex offender at the time of the sexual relationship
Agreed - I'm still at the logical framing stage; things like their ages at the time of the relationship and the type of relationship matter. So whatever her current age is might be suggestive, but it's certainly not dispositive of anything.But there's a serious lack of anything reliable, and I still think it's bad to make any assumptions in either direction.
Does anybody know what the league policy is for this?I also don't think Wander agreeing to be on the restricted list for 6 games is necessarily indicative of much either. I think the situation still looks bad for him, but there is still much to be determined before we conclude for sure.
It's a good example of R&J exceptions for the thread. What I should have typed is "I don't know if the DR has them." Casual internet consensus seems to be "no."I did some quick Googling. Here's one example:
Yeah, not my area of law, but I get it.To be a touch more clear, "strict liability" is not the proper term if you want to search for it (although it's sometimes used as a shorthand.)
What we're talking about here is if the DR allows a defense of mistaken fact in these situations. Can Wander say, "I knowingly slept with her, but I was credibly misled about her age" and so escape criminal liability? Or is being misled just not a factor?
(Generally speaking, the US does not allow this as a defense.)
A second issue is, "does parental permission allow this?" Like, was this a "DR common law marriage" followed by a "DR common law divorce"? If such things even exist. On a first impression with partial facts, that seems like a heck of a stretch.
If they had a physical relationship while she was underage I can’t imagine his reasonable beliefs are relevant to punishment. It’s not for courts, and it would allow people to avoid statutory rape charges with some made up docs.Let's say this is a catfishing type thing to extort money. IE Wander is a bit of a victim here as well. I wonder how MLB would handle punishment. I can't recall something similar taking place any recent time.
Got it. I misunderstood.It's a good example of R&J exceptions for the thread. What I should have typed is "I don't know if the DR has them." Casual internet consensus seems to be "no."
I was surprised to see some comment from someone who claimed to own a Franco card worth 13k, which is far more than I would’ve thought modern cards could reach.He is easily a top five current player in terms of speculative baseball card value. Imagine how much is being lost there if the worst outcomes prevail?
"Gems" about possible (and this goes that far) statutory rape don't belong here.Twitter has some gems on this whole thing. In addition to the usual memes:
I'm happy to remove it, but completely honest question - what about this offends you?"Gems" about possible (and this goes that far) statutory rape don't belong here.
Any joke about any type of rape doesn't belong here. It isn't about being offended. Would you like your (hypothetical?) daughter to be the subject of these jokes? Here, on SoSH?I'm happy to remove it, but completely honest question - what about this offends you?
(I had thought it was non-offensive and fairly far afield of the actual subject matter, as it's making of of analytics.)
It’s pretty clearly a joke not about rape but about analytics/statisticsAny joke about any type of rape doesn't belong here. It isn't about being offended. Would you like your (hypothetical?) daughter to be the subject of these jokes? Here, on SoSH?
Using a 14 year old as a punch line, no?It’s pretty clearly a joke not about rape but about analytics/statistics
Fair point. (Perhaps I should have asked, "what about this is offensive?" I didn't mean to imply this was only about you, personally.)Any joke about any type of rape doesn't belong here. It isn't about being offended. Would you like your (hypothetical?) daughter to be the subject of these jokes? Here, on SoSH?
I'm with @PC Drunken Friar on this one. That joke seems wholly inappropriate to me.Using a 14 year old as a punch line, no?
Might be normal in other cultures actually? Us (mostly) white guys might not know all the angles here. I have to guess we don't know her identity so I wouldn't make assumptions about this. Also how long had he lived in the US when they met? Who knows what a young kid in a foreign country might be capable of judging. If he was duped into this, there are potentially a bunch of reasons.Ah yes, very normal, getting mom’s permission to date her adult daughter.
There are a lot of threads that have straddled the line over the years, and not all non-sports content is created equal. Personal behavior is not in and of itself politics. Threads about Kobe, Antonio Brown, and many others have stayed in their respective forums, and that's always preferable IMO, even if some mild intervention happens from time to time. Hopefully this thread can stay here.Shouldn't this be in V&N? It's hard to work out the mods' strike zone but "zero tolerance keep non-sports stuff out of sports (unless it's Ben Rapistburger references)" seems to be sorta kinda of how it works.
Or does each sport's forum (NFL vs. MLB etc) have different house rules and edge cases?
He’s from a country and culture where there’s also an age of consent. Why are you assuming he’s a lost lamb who got duped here? I get what you’re saying, but it also seems to be making a bunch of assumptions about Franco and foreign players in general that are unintentionally insulting.Might be normal in other cultures actually? Us (mostly) white guys might not know all the angles here. I have to guess we don't know her identity so I wouldn't make assumptions about this. Also how long had he lived in the US when they met? Who knows what a young kid in a foreign country might be capable of judging. If he was duped into this, there are potentially a bunch of reasons.
If he had some idea or should have known, then I don't want to sound like I am excusing this. Also don't the Rays train young players about this stuff? Especially foreign kids who might not know and whose parents are far away. They HAVE to teach them about the laws.
And not a RoethlisbergerAnyway, like literally everyone else around here, I''m really hoping that this turns out to be a nothingburger.
I lived in a foreign country, I can empathize with anyone doing this, especially as a teenager. I found it bewildering and I came from the rich white world. I also have a 19 year old son and feel comfortable saying they don't make the best decisions, even before you introduce millions of dollars. I don't think it's insulting to ask questions. It might not be a simple case at all, and both people have rights.He’s from a country and culture where there’s also an age of consent. Why are you assuming he’s a lost lamb who got duped here? I get what you’re saying, but it also seems to be making a bunch of assumptions about Franco and foreign players in general that are unintentionally insulting.
Huh? What is bewildering about this? The picture of him kissing an obvious underage girl is bewildering? I'm not understanding what you mean.I lived in a foreign country, I can empathize with anyone doing this, especially as a teenager. I found it bewildering and I came from the rich white world. I don't think it's insulting to ask questions. It might not be a simple case at all, and both people have rights. I also have a 19 year old son and feel comfortable saying they don't make the best decisions, even before you introduce millions of dollars.
It sounds more like an issue with statutory rape being strict liability, which isn’t necessarily a terrible discussion, but a guy coming from a country with similar laws whose dad played ball in the US probably wasn’t confused as to the age of consent being 14 in either country.I lived in a foreign country, I can empathize with anyone doing this, especially as a teenager. I found it bewildering and I came from the rich white world. I also have a 19 year old son and feel comfortable saying they don't make the best decisions, even before you introduce millions of dollars. I don't think it's insulting to ask questions. It might not be a simple case at all, and both people have rights.
She is obviously underage? I chose not to go digging for photos. If it's obvious, then fine, case closed. Also that wasn't the question I was originally responding to.Huh? What is bewildering about this? The picture of him kissing an obvious underage girl is bewildering? I'm not understanding what you mean.
Yeah, OK. I can think of all sorts of reasons kids make mistakes initially, but ongoing... the chances of it being at all innocent narrow quickly.It sounds more like an issue with statutory rape being strict liability, which isn’t necessarily a terrible discussion, but a guy coming from a country with similar laws whose dad played ball in the US probably wasn’t confused as to the age of consent being 14 in either country.
I haven’t been around many 14 year olds. If they were in an ongoing relationship, I’d assume you’d have to be pretty willfully blind to not realize your gf was just starting high school.
Since when are we not allowed to discuss "non-sports stuff" in the sports forums? That happens daily. It's personal politics that rightly gets locked in V&N. I guess if some poster comes out as pro-statutory rape we'll have to move the thread.Shouldn't this be in V&N? It's hard to work out the mods' strike zone but "zero tolerance keep non-sports stuff out of sports (unless it's Ben Rapistburger references)" seems to be sorta kinda of how it works.
Or does each sport's forum (NFL vs. MLB etc) have different house rules and edge cases?