Similar to the extension given to the broken Chris SaleHe could be a high risk/low reward option to target in the 2035 offseason.
Similar to the extension given to the broken Chris SaleHe could be a high risk/low reward option to target in the 2035 offseason.
I’m measured in my reaction to the offseason (so far), but I think the reason they didn’t get Soto is that they didn’t want him, given the cost. They could have gone to the currency exchange window and got whatever SD wanted.It was widely reported and then posted here too many times to count that the Padres wanted pitching in return for Soto. The Sox have a good minor league system but not high-end pitching prospects. They were never mentioned for Soto because the Padres wanted oranges but the Sox have an apple orchard.
Have you considered the crazy possibility that fans aren't reacting solely to something that happened yesterday? Or is it hard to consider the cumulative impact of the last five years when you're fan policing?I know we’re the Hub of the Universe and all but wow do we Sox fans revel in our navel gazing. Long before John Henry showed up here and the Sox won four championships, it was the case that when the Red Sox and the Yankees both wanted the same free agent…the Red Sox lost. The only thing that has changed is that there is now a new Yankees out there.
In our despair we can twist this into cheap Sox ownership and loss of prestige and poor baseball operations. But it was none of those things. The Sox were always the longest of shots to land a free agent who was coveted by both the Dodgers and the Yankees. That’s just the law of the jungle. Much has it ever been. With a little distance and perspective, we might be able to recognize that the team and fan base that will find this new baseball world order especially disorienting and terrifying is the New York Yankees.
The Yankees pulled out every stop in their pursuit of Yamamoto and were leaking through the media that they “were feeling good” about their chances. Obviously, they, too, never stood a chance. It’s clear as day that the Dodgers told Yamamoto to go get the very best offer he could find and they would…match it. Not beat it, match it. So he got the Mets to go to $325, and the Dodgers matched it, and he went where he always wanted to be. When the Dodgers want someone, THEY are now the team that gets him.
That’s got to be very distressing for a Yankees fan. Sox fans? Jesus Christ, this has always been the way for us. Twist it how you want but we don’t get the guy when the Yankees want him. And there’s a new Yankees in town.
This is the kind of perspective I’m looking for.Ill save my despair until the Sox lose on opening day.
No, that never occurred to me.Have you considered the crazy possibility that fans aren't reacting solely to something that happened yesterday? Or is it hard to consider the cumulative impact of the last five years when you're fan policing?
Perhaps. Breslow has said they want pitching and are willing to trade position player prospects to acquire it. So maybe he wouldn’t want to dedicate any resources beyond money to Soto. But just on the surface level of why weren’t the Sox “mentioned” regarding Soto, it’s clear that what we just weren’t an obvious fit for what the Padres wanted in return.I’m measured in my reaction to the offseason (so far), but I think the reason they didn’t get Soto is that they didn’t want him, given the cost. They could have gone to the currency exchange window and got whatever SD wanted.
Yeah, I wonder if there’s a change in the rules down the line. Seems like it should not be a legal thing to do with deferring all the money 20 years down the line.This was the plan once ohtani deferred. And he got a 50 mil bonus? Hmmmm. Ohtani defers all his… the dodger drop a huge amount in year one on this guy…. I mean it doesn’t really feel “right” even though it’s within the rules.
I guess that’s what you do when you haven’t won a proper championship in decades.
anyhow… I do worry that now the dodgers have a complete advantage (even over other west coast teams) with any Japanese star coming over.
Or closer to Japan and in a place where the weather is better. (Not in my opinion, I live in Philly because I like to walk and the change of seasons.)If the Sox matched that $325m, he left $23,750,000 on the table to live in Ohtani’s shadow.
I think the idea of “Tampa North” was a bit on the nose; but Bloom was canned for similar reasons to Cherington. Ultimately almost all FA contracts are going to be bad deals as aging curves are going to put peak production in a player’s controllable years. The Sox are looking for a model where they can get players while they’re likely to be better (and cheaper). I think the issue is the Sox (and their voiciferous fans) also expect to contend , so they haven’t been willing to dump ML players and call off the season for prospects when that was ultimately the better move.It’s been pretty clear that their MO is “be competitive…. With luck and health- a playoff berth… then it’s a crapshoot”.
That’s why Bloom was perfect for them. I think Bloom may have shown their hand a little too much.
It’s looking more like the things where I thought Bloom was failing was more likely a Henry imposed philosophy. It’s a private team and it’s their right. We can either continue to participate or follow another team.
The weather argument is definitely fair.Or closer to Japan and in a place where the weather is better. (Not in my opinion, I live in Philly because I like to walk and the change of seasons.)
I am wondering whether "mentions" ( or tweets rumors etc) are a valid form of analytical currency. I know its all we have sometimes, but the "are they 'in on him'" narrative based on the likes of Heyman et al is corrosive to brain function/makes idiots of us all..Perhaps. Breslow has said they want pitching and are willing to trade position player prospects to acquire it. So maybe he wouldn’t want to dedicate any resources beyond money to Soto. But just on the surface level of why weren’t the Sox “mentioned” regarding Soto, it’s clear that what we just weren’t an obvious fit for what the Padres wanted in return.
It also should be noted his agent is a LA local who also represents Glasnow.I'm not going to be angry at the ownership over this, because it sounds like the Mets made the best offer, and his agent just took it to the Dodgers to see if they would match it and they did. That showed he wanted to be a Dodger, first and foremost. And I really don't think going any higher than what he received from them would have changed that. When you already have over 300 million dollars, you'd sacrifice 50 million just to live where you want to live. And it's clear from how this all went down that for him that place is LA.
Unless they start spending the Red Sox owners are the Artful DogdersMore like dodging the east.
Yes it’s an interesting question. One thing this drama has highlighted is the kind of supporting roles that these scooplette reporters play. This thread has been a lot of fun for me, and one of the things that gave it momentum was that every few hours one of these insider types would drop some cryptic and vaguely sourced “what I’m hearing” tweet. Most of it turned out to be complete bullshit…but it added to the entertainment. I’m sure that at some point these guys recognize that that’s their role in all of this. I mean, with Ohtani, one of them breathlessly reported that he was on a plane to Toronto. The interest shut down. It was complete bullshit. But it was fun. Maybe that’s just their role?I am wondering whether "mentions" ( or tweets rumors etc) are a valid form of analytical currency. I know its all we have sometimes, but the "are they 'in on him'" narrative based on the likes of Heyman et al is corrosive to brain function/makes idiots of us all..
Does anyone out there tally up accuracy like some do for the (much easier) preseason predictions?
Not only that but the obvious point that news that incites anger, scorn or ridicule travels faster and farther. I trust the actual reporters (for the most part), but there's a thin and not always perceptible line in the media sphere. It's absolutely true that "digital editors" are constantly tweaking headlines and tweet constructions to stoke and maximize outrage. And it works!Yes it’s an interesting question. One thing this drama has highlighted is the kind of supporting roles that these scooplette reporters play. This thread has been a lot of fun for me, and one of the things that gave it momentum was that every few hours one of these insider types would drop some cryptic and vaguely sourced “what I’m hearing” tweet. Most of it turned out to be complete bullshit…but it added to the entertainment. I’m sure that at some point these guys recognize that that’s their role in all of this. I mean, with Ohtani, one of them breathlessly reported that he was on a plane to Toronto. The interest shut down. It was complete bullshit. But it was fun. Maybe that’s just their role?
Great post!I know we’re the Hub of the Universe and all but wow do we Sox fans revel in our navel gazing. Long before John Henry showed up here and the Sox won four championships, it was the case that when the Red Sox and the Yankees both wanted the same free agent…the Red Sox lost. The only thing that has changed is that there is now a new Yankees out there.
In our despair we can twist this into cheap Sox ownership and loss of prestige and poor baseball operations. But it was none of those things. The Sox were always the longest of shots to land a free agent who was coveted by both the Dodgers and the Yankees. That’s just the law of the jungle. Much has it ever been. With a little distance and perspective, we might be able to recognize that the team and fan base that will find this new baseball world order especially disorienting and terrifying is the New York Yankees.
The Yankees pulled out every stop in their pursuit of Yamamoto and were leaking through the media that they “were feeling good” about their chances. Obviously, they, too, never stood a chance. It’s clear as day that the Dodgers told Yamamoto to go get the very best offer he could find and they would…match it. Not beat it, match it. So he got the Mets to go to $325, and the Dodgers matched it, and he went where he always wanted to be. When the Dodgers want someone, THEY are now the team that gets him.
That’s got to be very distressing for a Yankees fan. Sox fans? Jesus Christ, this has always been the way for us. Twist it how you want but we don’t get the guy when the Yankees want him. And there’s a new Yankees in town.
This is mostly right. I don't remember the Manny deal - but IIRC the Sox have never won a bidding war with the Yankees. What HAS changed is there are now more teams willing to spend (particularly the Mets and Dodgers). Boston has a huge need - and the number of top-end free agents are dwindling.I know we’re the Hub of the Universe and all but wow do we Sox fans revel in our navel gazing. Long before John Henry showed up here and the Sox won four championships, it was the case that when the Red Sox and the Yankees both wanted the same free agent…the Red Sox lost. The only thing that has changed is that there is now a new Yankees out there.
In our despair we can twist this into cheap Sox ownership and loss of prestige and poor baseball operations. But it was none of those things. The Sox were always the longest of shots to land a free agent who was coveted by both the Dodgers and the Yankees. That’s just the law of the jungle. Much has it ever been. With a little distance and perspective, we might be able to recognize that the team and fan base that will find this new baseball world order especially disorienting and terrifying is the New York Yankees.
The Yankees pulled out every stop in their pursuit of Yamamoto and were leaking through the media that they “were feeling good” about their chances. Obviously, they, too, never stood a chance. It’s clear as day that the Dodgers told Yamamoto to go get the very best offer he could find and they would…match it. Not beat it, match it. So he got the Mets to go to $325, and the Dodgers matched it, and he went where he always wanted to be. When the Dodgers want someone, THEY are now the team that gets him.
That’s got to be very distressing for a Yankees fan. Sox fans? Jesus Christ, this has always been the way for us. Twist it how you want but we don’t get the guy when the Yankees want him. And there’s a new Yankees in town.
The pressure to win will be unbelievable. How much will a ticket to a game cost now?Go Dodgers!
Win another one for Mook
Probably still not as much as a ticket to watch the Boston Red Sox! Who for some reason can't be reasonably expected to compete for top of the market free agents.The pressure to win will be unbelievable. How much will a ticket to a game cost now?
I know we’re the Hub of the Universe and all but wow do we Sox fans revel in our navel gazing. Long before John Henry showed up here and the Sox won four championships, it was the case that when the Red Sox and the Yankees both wanted the same free agent…the Red Sox lost. The only thing that has changed is that there is now a new Yankees out there.
In our despair we can twist this into cheap Sox ownership and loss of prestige and poor baseball operations. But it was none of those things. The Sox were always the longest of shots to land a free agent who was coveted by both the Dodgers and the Yankees. That’s just the law of the jungle. Much has it ever been. With a little distance and perspective, we might be able to recognize that the team and fan base that will find this new baseball world order especially disorienting and terrifying is the New York Yankees.
The Yankees pulled out every stop in their pursuit of Yamamoto and were leaking through the media that they “were feeling good” about their chances. Obviously, they, too, never stood a chance. It’s clear as day that the Dodgers told Yamamoto to go get the very best offer he could find and they would…match it. Not beat it, match it. So he got the Mets to go to $325, and the Dodgers matched it, and he went where he always wanted to be. When the Dodgers want someone, THEY are now the team that gets him.
That’s got to be very distressing for a Yankees fan. Sox fans? Jesus Christ, this has always been the way for us. Twist it how you want but we don’t get the guy when the Yankees want him. And there’s a new Yankees in town.
Huh? First of all, they offered him 10/300 as compared to 12/325, clear that he preferred to go to LAD if the offers were close, which they were.It’s interesting that the Yankees didn’t have the highest offer (although until the details of the negotiations come out, we won’t know who was prepared to do what); the Yankees haven’t spent like the Yankees for awhile (excepting Cole & Judge) and have seemed to try to get by on vibes. I’d be worried if the Sox took that approach
This guy gets it. Won't somebody please thing of those poor Boston sports fans, it's been a whole five years since a duck boat parade made it way down Boylston Street. The horror.Have you considered the crazy possibility that fans aren't reacting solely to something that happened yesterday? Or is it hard to consider the cumulative impact of the last five years when you're fan policing?
I don't see anyone claiming hardship because the Sox haven't won a title in 5 years.This guy gets it. Won't somebody please thing of those poor Boston sports fans, it's been a whole five years since a duck boat parade made it way down Boylston Street. The horror.
It's not as much travel time as it is accessibility to the Japanese TV market. 7pm starts in LA are early lunch starts in Japan. Makes a difference relative to the East Coast in terms of people getting a glance of Yamamoto and Ohtani. A Friday or Saturday night start for Yamamoto is a midday weekend event in Japan... not inconsequential for them.The weather argument is definitely fair.
The “closer to Japan” argument is always funny to me though. They’re not flying home during the season, they’re flying home during the offseason. And when they do:
It’s 14 hours from Boston/New York/Philly to Tokyo.
It’s 12 hours from LAX to Tokyo.
Sadly for Mets fans, this post could be accompanied by the song, "One of these things is not like the others, one of these things just doesn't belong..."Huh? First of all, they offered him 10/300 as compared to 12/325, clear that he preferred to go to LAD if the offers were close, which they were.
Secondly as of this AM:
Projected 40-Man #MLB CBT Payrolls (including estimated arbitration/pre-arbitration salaries)
1. #Mets, $283M
2. #Yankees, $280M
3. #Dodgers, $277M
4. #Braves, $274M
5. #Phillies, $248M
Where are those numbers from? I'm seeing different from cot's: https://legacy.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/cots/Huh? First of all, they offered him 10/300 as compared to 12/325, clear that he preferred to go to LAD if the offers were close, which they were.
Secondly as of this AM:
Projected 40-Man #MLB CBT Payrolls (including estimated arbitration/pre-arbitration salaries)
1. #Mets, $283M
2. #Yankees, $280M
3. #Dodgers, $277M
4. #Braves, $274M
5. #Phillies, $248M
Except for the year they were two wins away from the World Series.I don't see anyone claiming hardship because the Sox haven't won a title in 5 years.
People are frustrated because the Sox haven't even attempted to truly compete since 2019.
Let's not do this again. 2021 was the best case outcome; 2022 and 2023 were lower tier outcomes of similar approaches.Except for the year they were two wins away from the World Series.
Yep. People keep saying this "closer to Japan" thing without remembering that the earth is round.The weather argument is definitely fair.
The “closer to Japan” argument is always funny to me though. They’re not flying home during the season, they’re flying home during the offseason. And when they do:
It’s 14 hours from Boston/New York/Philly to Tokyo.
It’s 12 hours from LAX to Tokyo.
I missed that he NYY offer was only 10 years - mea culpa (although the total value point stands, and getting an extra $25 M as an annuity when you may be broken down at the end of your career isn’t something to sneeze at).Huh? First of all, they offered him 10/300 as compared to 12/325, clear that he preferred to go to LAD if the offers were close, which they were.
Secondly as of this AM:
Projected 40-Man #MLB CBT Payrolls (including estimated arbitration/pre-arbitration salaries)
1. #Mets, $283M
2. #Yankees, $280M
3. #Dodgers, $277M
4. #Braves, $274M
5. #Phillies, $248M
Yeah, planes don’t just fly latitudinally. I learned that long ago on MY flight to Tokyo!Yep. People keep saying this "closer to Japan" thing without remembering that the earth is round.
There very well could be cultural reasons (existing Japanese population, access to the right food, history of/current Japanese players), but a couple of extra hours in a first class seat isn't that. Proximity to winning, emphasis on GFIN--that makes plenty of sense.
Imanaga is certainly interesting, although his HR rate is scary high, reminiscent of Kei Igawa. Stuff seems to be much better, though.Don't know why you're discounting the possibility of Iamanaga; his signing would not represent more of the same.
Also, trade market is expected to open up soon, probably as soon as the calendar rolls.
I don't have to imagine it. I flew through California in the spring to Japan and am spending some extra cash to fly direct from Boston this time. Less time in the air is awesome, but not millions of dollars of awesome. And 11 hours of time zone difference vs. 14 isn't particularly meaningful either.Unless you are someone who travels internationally on a regular basis, I’m not sure how confident I’d be in this opinion.
Having traveled regularly to destinations 8, 10 and 12-14 hours away in my experience it’s been quite different, then there are added time changes.
Some folks handle this better than others, and while I’m not likely to ever end up in a charter, that extra couple hours up there can take the fight out even in relative comfort.
edit - imagine flying direct from Logan to Honolulu but instead of landing they put on the Irishman and kept flying.
Ha, sounds like maybe you are just more brave than I am! I used to be more tolerant, but at this point I imagine that at any income level it’s boredom, misery, jet lag, and de hydration.I don't have to imagine it. I flew through California in the spring to Japan and am spending some extra cash to fly direct from Boston this time. Less time in the air is awesome, but not millions of dollars of awesome. And 11 hours of time zone difference vs. 14 isn't particularly meaningful either.
Suppose that everyone is different, fine. But at his income level, it's lay-flat seats, hot towels, and bottomless champagne.
Goddamn it. This is way better than the response I came up with.This guy gets it. Won't somebody please thing of those poor Boston sports fans, it's been a whole five years since a duck boat parade made it way down Boylston Street. The horror.
To be fair, East Coast teams like the Sox have a similar advantage with Dominican and other Caribbean players.Would Moroccans make good baseball players?
By and large, they haven’t chosen to be competitive since the Mookie trade. 3 last place finishes in 4 years. Selling the fans on “bridge years” year after year. Dumpster diving for starting pitching. Not investing in the team at the trade deadline the last two years. Screwing up the luxury tax in 2022. I could go on.It’s been pretty clear that their MO is “be competitive…. With luck and health- a playoff berth… then it’s a crapshoot”.
That’s why Bloom was perfect for them. I think Bloom may have shown their hand a little too much.
It’s looking more like the things where I thought Bloom was failing was more likely a Henry imposed philosophy. It’s a private team and it’s their right. We can either continue to participate or follow another team.
Exactly. The best Red Sox teams relied heavily on guys from the DR. Chasing your tail trying to woo Japanese players away from the West Coast doesn't seem like a good use of an offseason.To be fair, East Coast teams like the Sox have a similar advantage with Dominican and other Caribbean players.
Closer to Japan isn't just about flight time (though that doesn't hurt - as a diplomat having arranged flights for grand pooh-bahs and VVIPs, such people care a lot more than I would have thought given how nice first class is), it's also about time zone differences - if you're a baseball player waking up at noon and playing games at 7pm those times fit better with Japan compared to eastern times.Yep. People keep saying this "closer to Japan" thing without remembering that the earth is round.
There very well could be cultural reasons (existing Japanese population, access to the right food, history of/current Japanese players), but a couple of extra hours in a first class seat isn't that. Proximity to winning, emphasis on GFIN--that makes plenty of sense.
Being upset with the overall direction of the team and some of its decisions is certainly reasonable. Being upset that they tried but failed to sign a guy that likely preferred to be in LA all along is setting an unrealistic high bar for any team.Do we have to do the "people upset with the team are stupid/reactionary/ungrateful/sports radio callers" schtick on every thread concerning every sport?
When did "smart, reasonable fans are the ones who never question ownership" become the official mantra of SoSH? God, the hand wringing.
SoSH spent a year in "next off-season Yamamoto will be posted" mode, but now that he's a Dodger there was never any possible way the Red Sox could have signed him. Why is it unrealistic? How do we even know the Sox reached that number (or were particularly close) and Yamamoto chose LA for other reasons?Being upset with the overall direction of the team and some of its decisions is certainly reasonable. Being upset that they tried but failed to sign a guy that likely preferred to be in LA all along is setting an unrealistic high bar for any team.