SOSH Running Dogs

rbeaud · Feb 17, 2009

New milestone last week - 40.5 miles (previous hi was 35M). I was very tired w/ Saturday's 8M @ 7:40 pace, although it might have had something to do with the mileage increase from the previous week where travel limited me to 35.5k (22M-ish).

Only two more training weeks before cutting back. Looking for +3M each week and a better speed workout today (5x800 @ 6:00, total 7M).

Edit: Finished on 17 Feb w/ 7.8M; 2M @ 7:53, 5x 800 @ 5:56 w/400 @ 10:30, 1x 500 @ 5:30, 400 @ 10:30, 1.5 @ 7:53. I finished the interval workout and even had enough left for a shorter, faster burst. All the same, I'm a bit insecure about the whole thing. As I progressed on the intervals, the point at which the countdown to zero became of greater interest was sooner and sooner. All told, I ran 4500m at a pace greater than my target (6:00) yet not all at one clip. Do I take consolation in the taper week leading up to the race providing more energy? My thought is that if 800m is an effort how do I tackle 5000m?

Edit II: 8M on 19 Feb, and cut short by a snow squall (target was 14M). At 150 BPM, I ran about 7:30 on the flats. Most encouraging, when the snow got bad and I decided to head home quickly, the last mile was 6:28 and I did not feel stressed. The big test is next week's tempo run 7M, w/ 5M @ 6:35.

Edit III: Seems it's just me now...so I found myself up against a time limit and 20 Feb's run became an impromptu speed trial. 4.17M @ 6:36 avg: 1M - 6:26 (156 BPM); 2M - 6:10 (165); 3M - 6:53 (171); 4M - 6:56 (169); finish - 6:25 (171). Considering the run is hilly, the cross winds were rough and this was miles 25-28 of this week, I was pleased at the pace. And possibly a wee bit less concerned about whether my training is leading me to a sub19. What bothered me is the HR as I thought I was pushing pretty hard. The HR seems lower than expected; maybe I just don't know true pain! Comments? For 21 Feb, it was 13.5 at 7:54 pace and a new weekly total hi of 42M. Not quite the full goal, although it feels good. I'll still try for 46-50M prior to the race week taper.

rbeaud · Feb 21, 2009

Seems like a busy week for my fellow runners, might be best to ask a question on start line etiquette early and not miss the reply. For the upcoming race there should be 700-ish participants based on previous years. A sub-19 5K would place me in the top 5% of runners methinks. How does one place oneself at the start line? The previous two races were small enough that it wasn't a huge deal although a few seconds were definitely left on the table working through folks that clearly were not going to be frontrunners. I'm on a mission now and want to give myself the best advantage to meeting my target pace :fonz:

BleacherFan · Feb 21, 2009

rbeaud said:
Seems like a busy week for my fellow runners, might be best to ask a question on start line etiquette early and not miss the reply. For the upcoming race there should be 700-ish participants based on previous years. A sub-19 5K would place me in the top 5% of runners methinks. How does one place oneself at the start line? The previous two races were small enough that it wasn't a huge deal although a few seconds were definitely left on the table working through folks that clearly were not going to be frontrunners. I'm on a mission now and want to give myself the best advantage to meeting my target pace

I would mix it up right near the front - that would put you in the top 30 roughly? Depending on the race and how wide the road is - assuming 15 people across the start of a line - get right in the front - maybe in the 2nd row. Just be very careful and listen to your body and don't chase any fast guys and go out too fast.

Dave

underhandtofirst · Feb 21, 2009

Just catching up after getting back from the first family trip to Disney World. Planned on getting in a couple runs over the 5 days, but only managed one 4.5 miler. I didnt want to risk waking up the kids (7, 5, 5) after action packed days. They were tired enough without me waking them up early. Ended up being a great trip for all. And it was neat to go for a run with temps in the low 60s. The first day running in a temp over 41 degrees since mid November. I've been barely getting in 20 miles per week, but I'm feeling more and more comfortable at 8 min/mile. I feel once I get my miles back up I'll be on my way.

Ok, now to throw some comments out to posts I missed.

5belongstoGeorge said:
I was running about 20 miles per week in the last 5 or 6 weeks prior to that race.

Thanks to all. I will do my "personal 5K" on Tuesday and use that number to determine my pace. I have a long run tomorrow and a cross training day Monday so Tuesday is the day!

I'm looking forward to the results from this 5k time trial. In race conditions you probably could go a little faster than running all alone.

BleacherFan said:
Quick update on me - last time I checked in - I had some hip/quad irritation that I chalked up to the indoor track - too many laps in the same direction. I shut it down for a few days - doing some hill work and some spinning on the bike - after doing that and doing some RICE treatment on the leg it's gotten much better. And I haven't touched the indoor track or done any marathon pace work since - I figure I have all of March to focus on that stuff....

Weekly mileage so far : 70, 84, 86, 30 (shut it down), 89, 87 (83 average not including my down week). I MAY touch 90 this week but I'm still trying to get my quad 100% - it's about 90% now. I may race some shorter races in March like the Hynes 5 Miler and I am still on the fence about New Bedford - if I run it I will do it at MP....

M-F I generally run between 8-10 in the morning and 3-4 in the evening. Saturdays have been between 16-18 and Sundays an easy run of 8.5.... My life has been like Groundhog day during the week: Run,Work,family,dinner,run,eat,sleep and Repeat...

Dave

Now that's some dedication. I have to remember this when I'm complaining about running 5 days a week during the summer. You're out there for 12 or so sessions per week during this rough winter. Getting used to running in the cold isnt that bad. The real tough part is all the running in darkness with bad footing and narrow streets. Keep up the great work!!!

AusTexSoxFan said:
So the Austin Marathon was yesterday. Conditions were ideal at the start. Cool, overcast and very little wind. Probably 50 degrees. It stayed that way for the first 12 miles or so. I started off nice and slow and was very patient. Was probably around a 4:20 pace for the first 6 miles or so and then started moving. Ultimately passed the 4:15 pace group at mile 10 which is where the major hills are for the next 2 miles.

Hit the halfway mark at 2:07 so was feeling good that a sub 1:53 second half was doable. It was also right around the halfway point when the sun came out and the winds picked up. Ouch. But still, got to mile 20 at 3:08 and had visions of a sub 4 hour marathon dancing in my head... until mile 22 when there is a stretch of the course that has you doubleback and run north for 3 blocks into the wind (this is after you've spent about miles 3-17 running north straight into the wind. Course starts heading south around mile 18).

Mentally, it was crushing to have to go back into the wind and by mile 23, I was in trouble. I knew I wasn't going to be able to go sub 4 hrs so I just tried to shift into a steady state and finish strong. There are three hills in the last 1.5 miles which ordinarily aren't difficult, but at that point of the marathon, they are ballbusters. Luckily managed to grind through those and finished with my legs cramping pretty good.

Final chip time was 4:07. Not too bad for my second marathon. Six minutes faster than last year. I was really proud at how I approached it this year as opposed to last year (where I died around mile 19 or so). I was so much more patient and methodical, I just ran out of gas with about 3-4 miles to go as the heat increased and the wind had taken its toll. I know I can go sub 4 hrs at this marathon, I just need a little more experience. BTW, the winner came through in 2:30 which was a couple minutes slower than last year's winner.

Congrats on the great race. Wind is really tough to deal with during any run. You can't get away from it and you dont get the same benefit running with the wind as against it. I ran into a stiff wind during the last 6 miles of my marathon so I have a bit of an idea what you went through.

Is the race more downhill for the second half? You went through the half in 2:07 (approx 9:40 pace), but still felt 1:53 (8:38 pace) was doable for the second half. You must have felt great to think you could go a full minute per mile faster. I agree sub 4 sounds well within your reach. You've already done the 2:00 for the 2nd half, it just getting you to improve the first half a bit. Better conditions and slightly more even pacing may be all you need.

rbeaud said:
New milestone last week - 40.5 miles (previous hi was 35M). I was very tired w/ Saturday's 8M @ 7:40 pace, although it might have had something to do with the mileage increase from the previous week where travel limited me to 35.5k (22M-ish).

Only two more training weeks before cutting back. Looking for +3M each week and a better speed workout today (5x800 @ 6:00, total 7M).

Edit: Finished on 17 Feb w/ 7.8M; 2M @ 7:53, 5x 800 @ 5:56 w/400 @ 10:30, 1x 500 @ 5:30, 400 @ 10:30, 1.5 @ 7:53. I finished the interval workout and even had enough left for a shorter, faster burst. All the same, I'm a bit insecure about the whole thing. As I progressed on the intervals, the point at which the countdown to zero became of greater interest was sooner and sooner. All told, I ran 4500m at a pace greater than my target (6:00) yet not all at one clip. Do I take consolation in the taper week leading up to the race providing more energy? My thought is that if 800m is an effort how do I tackle 5000m?

Edit II: 8M on 19 Feb, and cut short by a snow squall (target was 14M). At 150 BPM, I ran about 7:30 on the flats. Most encouraging, when the snow got bad and I decided to head home quickly, the last mile was 6:28 and I did not feel stressed. The big test is next week's tempo run 7M, w/ 5M @ 6:35.

Edit III: Seems it's just me now...so I found myself up against a time limit and 20 Feb's run became an impromptu speed trial. 4.17M @ 6:36 avg: 1M - 6:26 (156 BPM); 2M - 6:10 (165); 3M - 6:53 (171); 4M - 6:56 (169); finish - 6:25 (171). Considering the run is hilly, the cross winds were rough and this was miles 25-28 of this week, I was pleased at the pace. And possibly a wee bit less concerned about whether my training is leading me to a sub19. What bothered me is the HR as I thought I was pushing pretty hard. The HR seems lower than expected; maybe I just don't know true pain! Comments? For 21 Feb, it was 13.5 at 7:54 pace and a new weekly total hi of 42M. Not quite the full goal, although it feels good. I'll still try for 46-50M prior to the race week taper.

In race conditions you should be able to hold the pace for the entire race. My last 5k I went through 1 mile in 6:07 and felt good even though my HR was 176 (max is 187). I held my HR above 174 for the rest of the race and finished at 184. In my training sessions it felt a lot harder at the same effort level. There's something to be said for letting someone else set the pace. Unless you go out in 5:30 or something you should be very close to 19mins. Remember the first mile should be somewhat relaxed. Try to get a feel for who is running your pace and use them to help you stick at your goal pace. Pay attention to how their form is, if it looks like it is breaking down it may be time to go by them as they could be dying.

rbeaud said:
Seems like a busy week for my fellow runners, might be best to ask a question on start line etiquette early and not miss the reply. For the upcoming race there should be 700-ish participants based on previous years. A sub-19 5K would place me in the top 5% of runners methinks. How does one place oneself at the start line? The previous two races were small enough that it wasn't a huge deal although a few seconds were definitely left on the table working through folks that clearly were not going to be frontrunners. I'm on a mission now and want to give myself the best advantage to meeting my target pace

Check coolrunning.com for past results for the race. You should get a decent idea where you will finish. Unless it is a real strong field you should be able to line up within a couple feet of the starting line and not worry about clogging up the race. Think of it this way, if you run 19 min pace a 15 min 5k runner will be 75 yds ahead of you after the first minute. A 17 min 5k runner will be 33 yds ahead of you and a 18min 5k runner will be 14 yds ahead. If you stay out of the way of the 17 min and below runners, you should be ok.

BleacherFan said:
I would mix it up right near the front - that would put you in the top 30 roughly? Depending on the race and how wide the road is - assuming 15 people across the start of a line - get right in the front - maybe in the 2nd row. Just be very careful and listen to your body and don't chase any fast guys and go out too fast.

Dave

Listen to this one. Dave has told me a few times to beware of the vacuum at the start of the race. Remember you'll probably feel as strong as you have in weeks, dont let yourself get sucked along with the gazelles. For my 25k race last fall I planned on a 7:15-7:20 pace. I felt awesome through the first mile..until I got my split of 6:45 when I knew I was going to have issues later. If you get caught up at 5:30 pace or lower it could be a rough last mile. If you can nail your splits I think you'll pass the 2 mile mark realizing you'll beat your PR even if you jog in, but you'll be able to blow it away by staying strong and letting some other pull you home.

BleacherFan · Feb 22, 2009

underhandtofirst said:
Now that's some dedication. I have to remember this when I'm complaining about running 5 days a week during the summer. You're out there for 12 or so sessions per week during this rough winter. Getting used to running in the cold isnt that bad. The real tough part is all the running in darkness with bad footing and narrow streets. Keep up the great work!!!

Thanks - I'll finish up with low-mid 90's this week. Next week will be a big test though - I'm going to try some MP on the outdoor track and test my leg. If things feel good, I might be running a 4 miler in Lawrence. I've been feeling strong lately - I probably finished MP on the last 2 miles of my 18.5 mile run yesterday so I want to rev the engine a little.

Jan 07 - 327 miles
Jan 09 - 303 miles

Now I took essentially 4 days off at the end of January would have put me around the 340 mark - I'll take 75 averages

Feb 07 - 301 miles
Feb 09 - 268 miles

With another 7 days left I should finish around 340 as well - 85 average - knock on wood, I should be OK

Two other big differences in my training this time around - treadmills and long runs:

In 2007 I did 5-6 days a week twice a day on a treadmill - this time around - I can count my treadmill workouts on one hand. I don't know if this is a better thing or a worse thing for me in the long run :fonz:

. I like to think training like Rocky over Drago is a better thing...

In 2007, I relogiously did 20-22 miles on Sunday - this year I am cutting down the mileage on my long days - I think I may have been a little over trained in 07.

My long days in 07:

16,23(19+4),21.4,20(16+4),21.7,20 (Through Feb 07)

So far, I have been doing something a little different, alternating 16 and 18.5 mile long runs. I'm still getting over 2 hours so I think I'm doing the right thing. Someone told me one time "It's better to be 10 miles undertrained than 1 mile overtrained"

Dave

BleacherFan · Mar 2, 2009

Hope everyone's training is going well.... this week for me finished up one of toughest months on record for me :

Total Distance: 355.76 miles
Total Time: 41:15:44 min

This week I added some intensity to my training - Monday I did some up/down hills (.7 mile up / .6 down). I've never done hills before so I have no idea how they are for marathon training ....Thursday I did a MP workout on the track - 1st 5 done at 6:00 pace, 6th at 5:47 and 7th at 5:39. Honestly my legs were a little tired but my lungs were the issue - stuff to work on in March...

Saturday I did a 2:25 long run (18.5m) and Sunday I raced for the first time since November. The Claddah, a 5miler in Lawrence - I wanted to see how bad my lungs were and if my leg would break down.

The lungs were bad - leg was fine - tired though. I went out with two studs through the 1st mile in 5:20 and they gapped me a little bit when I felt like crap. After a huge hill (6:06 2nd mile - yuck), I finished with a 5:20 3rd and a 5:30 4th miler - 3rd place.

Overall a good week for training and now I need to start working on some anerobic stuff and MP when I can - I was happy with the mileage again this week (89). I can fix the lung stuff before April - it's the legs that would have had me concerned

underhandtofirst · Mar 2, 2009

BleacherFan said:
Hope everyone's training is going well.... this week for me finished up one of toughest months on record for me :

Total Distance: 355.76 miles
Total Time: 41:15:44 min

This week I added some intensity to my training - Monday I did some up/down hills (.7 mile up / .6 down). I've never done hills before so I have no idea how they are for marathon training ....Thursday I did a MP workout on the track - 1st 5 done at 6:00 pace, 6th at 5:47 and 7th at 5:39. Honestly my legs were a little tired but my lungs were the issue - stuff to work on in March...

Saturday I did a 2:25 long run (18.5m) and Sunday I raced for the first time since November. The Claddah, a 5miler in Lawrence - I wanted to see how bad my lungs were and if my leg would break down.

The lungs were bad - leg was fine - tired though. I went out with two studs through the 1st mile in 5:20 and they gapped me a little bit when I felt like crap. After a huge hill (6:06 2nd mile - yuck), I finished with a 5:20 3rd and a 5:30 4th miler - 3rd place.

Overall a good week for training and now I need to start working on some anerobic stuff and MP when I can - I was happy with the mileage again this week (89). I can fix the lung stuff before April - it's the legs that would have had me concerned

I did a lot of hill work (1/3 to 1/2 mile) prepping for my half marathon last year and I felt it really helped me. Part of the benefit was that it was a different type of training. It helped my strength too. You might be well served to run a couple downhills hard as well to help prepare for Boston. Well, maybe this week isnt so great with thr 12+ inches of snow we just got.

What type of anaerobic stuff are you doing?

I did some hill work Fri night, 2 mil w/u, 5x.35 mile hills up then down. Up the hill was done at 7:30 pace, down at 9:30. It's a good hill as the effort was similar to about 6:15 on a track. runningahead.com says it is 80ft of elevation. Some of the effort was running back and forth over a few bad patches of road in the dark. I backed it up with 10 miles yesterday (8:15 pace/ mp+40 sec) as the snow started. My two toughest days in the last 2 months. Did 26+ miles last week which is the most since November. Got to keep this up as I try to build to 40/wk in April and May.

BleacherFan · Mar 2, 2009

underhandtofirst said:
I did a lot of hill work (1/3 to 1/2 mile) prepping for my half marathon last year and I felt it really helped me. Part of the benefit was that it was a different type of training. It helped my strength too. You might be well served to run a couple downhills hard as well to help prepare for Boston. Well, maybe this week isnt so great with thr 12+ inches of snow we just got.

Yah, as an example on my .7 mile up-hills, I did 5:05,4:51,4:38,4:36,4:32 - this is like 7:00 pace going down to 6:30 pace. To be honest I was a little conservative since I was a little concerned about my leg. On the downhills (.6) I went 5:13,4:29,4:24,4:26,4:13 which is like 8:41 going down to 7:00 pace. If I continue doing these once a week, do I aim for MP on the uphills and something like MP+1minute on the downhills?

What type of anaerobic stuff are you doing?

Right now - none :unsure:

I was hoping the outdoor track was going to be clear but not now-- I need to start that again...Hills are a start but I need to start 1ks or something

underhandtofirst · Mar 2, 2009

BleacherFan said:
Yah, as an example on my .7 mile up-hills, I did 5:05,4:51,4:38,4:36,4:32 - this is like 7:00 pace going down to 6:30 pace. To be honest I was a little conservative since I was a little concerned about my leg. On the downhills (.6) I went 5:13,4:29,4:24,4:26,4:13 which is like 8:41 going down to 7:00 pace. If I continue doing these once a week, do I aim for MP on the uphills and something like MP+1minute on the downhills?
Right now - none I was hoping the outdoor track was going to be clear but not now-- I need to start that again...Hills are a start but I need to start 1ks or something

I always see hills as a replacement for VO2 max intervals. That means the pace (or effort level) should be that of a 5k race. I know what my heart rate is for a 5k race and I aim for a HR just below my average HR for a 5k race. I go just below because I find I can't duplicate race-type effort in a training session without wiping myself out. For example, my max HR is 187, my 5k race avg HR is between 174 and 176. My HR at the end of each interval is usually around 168-170 for the first interval and 174-177 for the last interval, no matter how many I do. For hills I try and duplicate that effort level. I've found I can't use a hill that is too steep because I need to go too slow to maintain the effort or I risk compromising the quality of the hill repeat. I go close to mp +2 min on the downhill so my HR drops to around 132-140 just like normal intervals.

On the track are you thinking about doing strides? Say 10x100 or so? I found they were helpful last year. They caused me to get a little sore because they forced me to stretch out a bit more, but in the end I improved as a result. I'd gradually pick it up on the straights to near top speed for 30-40 yds then slow down before I got to the turn where I would do an easy jog (mp +2 min approx). My overall pace for 10x100 strides ended up being mp +15 to 30 seconds.

BleacherFan · Mar 2, 2009

underhandtofirst said:
For hills I try and duplicate that effort level. I've found I can't use a hill that is too steep because I need to go too slow to maintain the effort or I risk compromising the quality of the hill repeat. I go close to mp +2 min on the downhill so my HR drops to around 132-140 just like normal intervals.

Since my HR is dead, I just have to try to do this based on effort. I think I have the right lengths (.7 up / .6 down) - I just need to get the quality down..

On the track are you thinking about doing strides? Say 10x100 or so? I found they were helpful last year. They caused me to get a little sore because they forced me to stretch out a bit more, but in the end I improved as a result. I'd gradually pick it up on the straights to near top speed for 30-40 yds then slow down before I got to the turn where I would do an easy jog (mp +2 min approx). My overall pace for 10x100 strides ended up being mp +15 to 30 seconds.

I do need to do strides, like after my run - but I'm thinking more along the lines of 10x1k @ 10k pace.....

Here's a stupid question - if I can do 10 miles at MP straight with no rest, is it better to do something like 2x5m at mp with 3 minutes rest? or like 3x3m with 2 minutes rest? Is there a benefit to let my HR go down and go back up again?

THanks,
Dave

underhandtofirst · Mar 2, 2009

BleacherFan said:
Since my HR is dead, I just have to try to do this based on effort. I think I have the right lengths (.7 up / .6 down) - I just need to get the quality down..

I do need to do strides, like after my run - but I'm thinking more along the lines of 10x1k @ 10k pace.....

Here's a stupid question - if I can do 10 miles at MP straight with no rest, is it better to do something like 2x5m at mp with 3 minutes rest? or like 3x3m with 2 minutes rest? Is there a benefit to let my HR go down and go back up again?

THanks,
Dave

With your experience, judging by effort should get you in the right ballpark.

10x1k? That;s one heck of a workout.

The reason to do it all in one session is that your body has a longer stimulus at the pace you chose. An example is 2x2mile tempo intervals is good, but a 4 mile continuous tempo run is better because your HR is in the correct zone for a longer period of time which provides a greater stimulus to increase your lactate threshold. That's why I believe as you get closer to the race you do longer intervals at 5k pace which helps you improve more.

Think of it another way, is it better to do two 10 milers or one 20 miler? The two 10 milers are less of a pounding on the body because of the recovery in between.

BleacherFan · Mar 3, 2009

underhandtofirst said:
With your experience, judging by effort should get you in the right ballpark.

10x1k? That;s one heck of a workout.

The reason to do it all in one session is that your body has a longer stimulus at the pace you chose. An example is 2x2mile tempo intervals is good, but a 4 mile continuous tempo run is better because your HR is in the correct zone for a longer period of time which provides a greater stimulus to increase your lactate threshold. That's why I believe as you get closer to the race you do longer intervals at 5k pace which helps you improve more.

Think of it another way, is it better to do two 10 milers or one 20 miler? The two 10 milers are less of a pounding on the body because of the recovery in between.

Wow, I did that workout harder today and I feel/felt a difference. I started at 6:35 pace this week and then did 6:22, 6:12, 6:12 and 6:07 pace. The downhills were pretty consistent at 7:13 pace...

Now to keep doing this once a week

rbeaud · Mar 4, 2009

Finished w/ 43M on 5d, instead of 46M. I don't know how some of us can rack up all those miles given work, family, and weather! Taper wk of 20-ish miles, speed workout tomorrow of 4X 800 @ 5:48. It will have to be the treadmill with the snowstorm remnants. Race on Sunday...

It's been fun progressing through my workout though I won't likely do this again soon. All those potential schedule impacts make it hard to keep to the training regimen. So while I will likely target some races, my training will probably be simply running as often as possible.

underhandtofirst · Mar 4, 2009

rbeaud said:
Finished w/ 43M on 5d, instead of 46M. I don't know how some of us can rack up all those miles given work, family, and weather! Taper wk of 20-ish miles, speed workout tomorrow of 4X 800 @ 5:48. It will have to be the treadmill with the snowstorm remnants. Race on Sunday...

It's been fun progressing through my workout though I won't likely do this again soon. All those potential schedule impacts make it hard to keep to the training regimen. So while I will likely target some races, my training will probably be simply running as often as possible.

If this is your goal race I'd think about that speed work so close to the race. You probably could use 4-5 days away from any hard effort, especially intervals, to be ready for the race. If this race is a stepping stone to something further out then I wouldnt worry about it too much, but you probably want to think about it next time for the taper.

Good luck on Sunday, what race is it again?

BleacherFan · Mar 4, 2009

rbeaud said:
Finished w/ 43M on 5d, instead of 46M. I don't know how some of us can rack up all those miles given work, family, and weather!

C'mon - I've got 39 through 3 days this week

In all seriousness you definitely need family support and you make time. I run before work and after my daughter is sleeping - I literally wrote my training program for Boston up in Microsoft word and had my wife approve it. Without their support I couldn't put the mileage in.

Taper wk of 20-ish miles, speed workout tomorrow of 4X 800 @ 5:48. It will have to be the treadmill with the snowstorm remnants. Race on Sunday...

Yah, I agree about the timing of this speed work. Unless you're running something long ( > 10k) I wouldn't do this much speed work before the race. Maybe some of those strides at 5:48 pace - like 10x100m? But I defer to the stride expert

Dave

underhandtofirst · Mar 5, 2009

Dave I enjoyed this entry in your log from Monday

Someone has to be that asshole in the neighborhood who runs around in a snowstorm. Well that is me where I live - at least they offered me water..

I hope it was a cup of water and not an offer you turn a water hose on you!

I was running at night a few days ago and someone leaned on the horn and yelled something out the window as they were passing me. That was a nice way to spike the HR.

Ran a nice tempo run today.
w/u 1.55mi @ 8:39
tempo 3.91mi @ 7:11 (avg HR 165, max of 174 going up the hill at the end)
c/d 0.99mi @ 8:04

Tempo part was pretty good up and down hills. Wasnt a deadly workout, but I was pushing up the hill for the last 1/2 mile. Always felt I could go faster which is my goal on tempo runs. Faster would turn it into a VO2 max workout.

BleacherFan · Mar 5, 2009

underhandtofirst said:
I hope it was a cup of water and not an offer you turn a water hose on you!

I hear ya on those people...too many of them! No, this old guy finally offered me water after about 7-8 laps - I was pretty impressed - he knew exactly how many more days until Boston..... I had a 2 mile loop in my neighborhood but it included some stretches on major roads so I ditched it about a month or so ago in favor of a .7 mile loop on strictly local roads. It's a lot more easier and friendlier.

Tempo part was pretty good up and down hills. Wasnt a deadly workout, but I was pushing up the hill for the last 1/2 mile. Always felt I could go faster which is my goal on tempo runs. Faster would turn it into a VO2 max workout.

You've been improving nicely - soon those tempos will be low 6's I can tell.....

underhandtofirst · Mar 5, 2009

BleacherFan said:
I hear ya on those people...too many of them! No, this old guy finally offered me water after about 7-8 laps - I was pretty impressed - he knew exactly how many more days until Boston..... I had a 2 mile loop in my neighborhood but it included some stretches on major roads so I ditched it about a month or so ago in favor of a .7 mile loop on strictly local roads. It's a lot more easier and friendlier.
You've been improving nicely - soon those tempos will be low 6's I can tell.....

.7 is pretty short, but actually not a bad distance, just over 1k for those types of intervals

low 6s is a long way off. If I can get into the 6:45-6:50 range during the summer I'll be in great shape. Tempo pace for me is just under half marathon pace. My PR HM is 7:15 pace and last summer I got down to 7 min pace for tempo runs.

The good part if that I'm doing this dragging 5-7 extra lbs than last fall. Once I get my miles back up into the 40s (not for 3 days!) some more improvements will come.

rbeaud · Mar 6, 2009

underhandtofirst said:
If this is your goal race I'd think about that speed work so close to the race. You probably could use 4-5 days away from any hard effort, especially intervals, to be ready for the race. If this race is a stepping stone to something further out then I wouldnt worry about it too much, but you probably want to think about it next time for the taper.

Good luck on Sunday, what race is it again?

I've got to stop doing this...read the posts today because I skipped lunch (busy). Not only did I do the speedwork per my generic RW workout, I upped the last two segments and ran at 5:30 pace. Oh well. Perhaps I'll skip today's run and give myself two good days of no running? The race is in New Haven (http://www.jbsports.com/wplrapp.pdf).

Hopefully you and Dave catch this before the race and can comment - I previewed (drove) the course this week: 0.5M flat, 0.5M 3-4% up, 0.25 3% dn, 0.25 3% up, 1M 3-4 dn, 0.5M flat. Checking mapmyrun.com, the elevation changes are similar to my local loop which I recently ran in 20:11 (not promising). I could use advice on how to tackle the first 1.5M; I presume the last 1.5M should be fast as can be with it being downhill/flat. Oh and according to the organizers email, there are over 1200 participants. Quite a jump from what I thought! Hopefully they block the streets because it is an up/back with a loop at the top of the hill.

Cheers,

Roland

rbeaud · Mar 6, 2009

underhandtofirst said:
I was running at night a few days ago and someone leaned on the horn and yelled something out the window as they were passing me. That was a nice way to spike the HR.

Glad it's not just me that seems to iratate drivers. I've had a few (seemingly) try to run me off the road for fun. That inspired me to get a high visibilty Brooks jacket, although people still try to run me in the ditch. I like the morning runs with fewer drivers out there although I hate giving up the sleep...

underhandtofirst · Mar 6, 2009

rbeaud said:
I've got to stop doing this...read the posts today because I skipped lunch (busy). Not only did I do the speedwork per my generic RW workout, I upped the last two segments and ran at 5:30 pace. Oh well. The race is in New Haven (http://www.jbsports.com/wplrapp.pdf).

Hopefully you and Dave catch this before the race and can comment - I previewed (drove) the course this week: 0.5M flat, 0.5M 3-4% up, 0.25 3% dn, 0.25 3% up, 1M 3-4 dn, 0.5M flat. Checking mapmyrun.com, the elevation changes are similar to my local loop which I recently ran in 20:11 (not promising). I could use advice on how to tackle the first 1.5M; I presume the last 1.5M should be fast as can be with it being downhill/flat. Oh and according to the organizers email, there are over 1200 participants. Quite a jump from what I thought! Hopefully they block the streets because it is an up/back with a loop at the top of the hill.

Cheers,

Roland

Roland,

Make sure you're at the correct pace in the first 1/2 mile because if you're going too quick you'll burn out going up the hill in the first mile. Just because it is downhill the last 1.5 doesnt mean it has to be as fast as can be. You legs will be feeling it with about a mile to go so use the downhill to keep your form together and maintain a steady pace.

Checking the 2008 results, there were 913 finishers and 41 got under 20 mins. That means you can be within the first couple rows of the starting line and not feel like you're clogging up the race. Remember 20 mins is 6:26 pace. If you can go through the half mile in 3:10-3:16 you should be ok. yes that is kind of a tight range, but you need that for a 5k.

Keep an eye on people around you. By 1.5-2 miles you can probably get a feel for who is going to be near you for the rest of the race. Pay attention to who you think you can pick off later. Remember, if you're running near a woman after 1.5 miles, there's a real good chance she's going to keep that same pace for a while as she's probably in the top 3 female runners.

Based on your interval times, I doubt there is anyone running 19:30-20:00 for 5k who can hang with you for the last 1/4 mile because of your speed. Anyone within 10-20 yards of you in the last 1/4 mile is yours. Keeoo You can increase the pace slightly at this point, but save the sprint (everything you have) for the last 150-200 yards. Have specific people in mind you're trying to catch and pick them off one by one.

Joe

rbeaud · Mar 6, 2009

underhandtofirst said:
Roland,

......You can increase the pace slightly at this point, but save the sprint (everything you have) for the last 150-200 yards. Have specific people in mind you're trying to catch and pick them off one by one.

Joe

Dude,

Are you available to be my life coach? Seriously, your post is a nice mental pick me up before the race. Fingers crossed...I'll be reading your post several times to lock in my plan. Very much appreciate the guidance.

underhandtofirst · Mar 6, 2009

rbeaud said:
Dude,

Are you available to be my life coach? Seriously, your post is a nice mental pick me up before the race. Fingers crossed...I'll be reading your post several times to lock in my plan. Very much appreciate the guidance.

It's a lot of the same stuff I say to myself during a race. You're going to do well, you've done some nice work the last few weeks. When it gets tough during the race, think back to some tough workouts and how you fought through it.

BleacherFan · Mar 8, 2009

underhandtofirst said:
It's a lot of the same stuff I say to myself during a race. You're going to do well, you've done some nice work the last few weeks. When it gets tough during the race, think back to some tough workouts and how you fought through it.

Roland, I hope the race went well. I also hope you listened to the sage advise of a nice conservative .5 mile start. Due to popular demand (not necessarily from here), I have put my Boston 09 training log up online here

Long story short here. Starting to get cautiously optimistic about my training - I have three big goals this week:

1) Continue the hills in training - weeks past I would run around Fresh Pond which is basically flat - ditch these for some hills
2) Get a nice tempo run in
3) If I race on Sunday (low key 10k in Malden), keep it to a nice tempo run with no taper

czar · Mar 8, 2009

So I've been running again recently to try to help work off the 5-10 I packed on over the winter-- I used to stick to a few routes (I'd have a 3 mi, 5 mi, 8 mi, and a few in between) that I would run all the time so I didn't really have the need for tracking (GPS or otherwise). Since I moved to Champaign (running in a grid layout for the first time ever) I've been taking all sorts of different routes around town, and I've found it more interesting and it causes running to be less a chore. Issue is, it's difficult to map all these random runs; so I've begun looking into tracking gadgets.

I got a Nike+ Sportband for XMas, although I've had a bit of accuracy difficulties with it, it seems to have been OK for total distance and average pace. I got my father a Forerunner 301 a few months back and he seems to love it. I've seen the output and I'm thoroughly impressed-- the runs are mapped, elevations are tagged, a breakdown of pace not only by time, but other factors, etc. I was actually going to buy one this weekend until it dawned on me-- I have a f***ing iPhone with GPS built in. Needless to say, there are many forms of software for this task such as RunKeeper, etc.

What is everyone else's tracking preference? Nike+? GPS like Garmin? iPhone?

Those who use iPhones/iPod touches for music during their runs-- armband recommendations?

underhandtofirst · Mar 8, 2009

czar said:
So I've been running again recently to try to help work off the 5-10 I packed on over the winter-- I used to stick to a few routes (I'd have a 3 mi, 5 mi, 8 mi, and a few in between) that I would run all the time so I didn't really have the need for tracking (GPS or otherwise). Since I moved to Champaign (running in a grid layout for the first time ever) I've been taking all sorts of different routes around town, and I've found it more interesting and it causes running to be less a chore. Issue is, it's difficult to map all these random runs; so I've begun looking into tracking gadgets.

I got a Nike+ Sportband for XMas, although I've had a bit of accuracy difficulties with it, it seems to have been OK for total distance and average pace. I got my father a Forerunner 301 a few months back and he seems to love it. I've seen the output and I'm thoroughly impressed-- the runs are mapped, elevations are tagged, a breakdown of pace not only by time, but other factors, etc. I was actually going to buy one this weekend until it dawned on me-- I have a f***ing iPhone with GPS built in. Needless to say, there are many forms of software for this task such as RunKeeper, etc.

What is everyone else's tracking preference? Nike+? GPS like Garmin? iPhone?

Those who use iPhones/iPod touches for music during their runs-- armband recommendations?

I have just a watch with a HR monitor, so no GPS. maybe someday. As far as music is concerned I have a small 1 GB MP3 player about the size of a lighter. I clip in onto my waistband on a short run or my water belt when I need it such as hot days or any run longer than 40 mins. I tried an armband once and I hated it.

czar · Mar 9, 2009

underhandtofirst said:
I have just a watch with a HR monitor, so no GPS. maybe someday. As far as music is concerned I have a small 1 GB MP3 player about the size of a lighter. I clip in onto my waistband on a short run or my water belt when I need it such as hot days or any run longer than 40 mins. I tried an armband once and I hated it.

Similarly, when I use the Nike+, I have a Zen Stone (size of a matchbook roughly) which I use. The benefit of using the iPhone would obviously mean tracking and music would be one-- the armband would be necessary for GPS, hence, no point in not using it for music.

BleacherFan · Mar 9, 2009

czar said:
What is everyone else's tracking preference? Nike+? GPS like Garmin? iPhone?

If I had the money I would definitely get the Forerunner 205 or 305. I hear nothing but good things from you and many others. And it definitely helps those days when you just feel like running aimlessly when you don't have to remember street names to go get the distance later.. Something scares me about running with an Iphone. One being the weight and two being the ability I have to ruin expensive stuff - I could imagine where there was a small opening in an armband which allowed rain to get in..Just my personal preference I guess..

I generally use the same routes but when I have to go back and map something I use Maymyrun

rbeaud · Mar 9, 2009

underhandtofirst said:
It's a lot of the same stuff I say to myself during a race. You're going to do well, you've done some nice work the last few weeks. When it gets tough during the race, think back to some tough workouts and how you fought through it.

This weekend was really nice for running in CT; nice for everything in general outdoors. I took Fri/Sat off, woke up early and had my official pre-race meal: greek yogurt + honey and 8 oz water. Shuffled off the the race site dressed for the expected temps of 50-60: shorts, short sleeve shirt. I quickly added an old green rugby shirt when I realized it was a bit chilly that early. Lots of people including scores of college kids as it was as much a fun run as a race. They announced 1500+ yet even with that I had no trouble getting right behind the front rank to start.

Per advice, I aimed to take the first .5 easy (6:12 target). I had to dial back several times with the initial surge of racers pulling me along at 5:23 through 0.1M. Hit the hill to finish the 1st mile and tried to keep an even pace. My breathing was less than even (sort of got out of time as it were every now and again) through the 2nd mile. By about 1.5, the lead pack had pulled away enough that it was a few folks in front and behind. One kid ran with me occasionally up, occasionally back. For mile 3 I picked up my pace just a tad since the hill was helping, not hurting this time. Somewhat funny, I barked (little tough to speak normally by now) for the kid to "come on" with 0.3 to go, he laughed/gargled and dropped back a bit; I figured since we had run together, he was my new buddy and we should finish strong. Held pace (probably a little faster as the HR Max alert on the Garming was constantly beeping at me), on the flat to the finish and, when I turned the corner, sprinted the 150 yds w/ all I had.

1M: 6.07 (162 bpm); 2M: 6:30 (172 bpm): 3M: 6:03 (177 bpm); 0.1M: not sure as I forgot to turn off the Garmin! (182 bpm). 19:18, 30th o/all, 4/89 in my age group about :20 behind 3rd....

http://www.jbsports.com/WPLR%2009%20results.htm

Probably need to work on my starts as I suspect that may explain the slow mile 2. I was really amped at the start line, fingers tingly and all.

Joe,Dave - thanks for all the support through the past couple of weeks. I didn't hit my target of sub-19 although I'm happy w/ :40 off my last 5k of two months ago. I think I gave it everything I had for that day though it is hard to tell with only three races under my belt. There's still lots to learn about managing the race, particularly my starts. I noticed one guy that moved past me at about 1.1 who had hung back for the uphill and then powered strong to the finish. That's probably more of the plan you had in mind for me! There's always the next race.

I told the wife I could have been faster with real racing shoes, she's not buying it. Or the shoes rather :unsure:

I did shave all my hair for St. Baldrics so that should help in the future...

Cheers,

Roland

rbeaud · Mar 9, 2009

BleacherFan said:
If I had the money I would definitely get the Forerunner 205 or 305. I hear nothing but good things from you and many others. And it definitely helps those days when you just feel like running aimlessly when you don't have to remember street names to go get the distance later.. Something scares me about running with an Iphone. One being the weight and two being the ability I have to ruin expensive stuff - I could imagine where there was a small opening in an armband which allowed rain to get in..Just my personal preference I guess..

I generally use the same routes but when I have to go back and map something I use Maymyrun

Must support the Garmin....I have the Forerunner 305 and absolutely love it. Having been caught in an unexpected rain/sleet/snow squall I would definitely suggest something with environmental resistance. The prices seems to be coming down since the new 405 is out there. Last April my 305 was $160-ish during REI's sale. For what it gave me, even as a recreational runner, it has been worth every penny. I particularly find the HR band useful to monitor my improvements or hold appropriate effort for a particular run.

rbeaud · Mar 9, 2009

Ok, it was so much fun this week, I'm now in for next Sunday too (4M in Fairfield, CT)! Any suggestions on how to treat this week for training? Tempo run tomorrow with a few more easy runs totaling the same 20 odd miles as last week?

The course if fairly flat, running alongside the water. Would it be unreasonable to aim for 24:30?

sass a thon · Mar 9, 2009

czar said:
What is everyone else's tracking preference? Nike+? GPS like Garmin? iPhone?

Those who use iPhones/iPod touches for music during their runs-- armband recommendations?

I have had a Garmin Forerunner 205 for a little over a year now and am 100% completely addicted to it. I'm surprised to see that it is still $150 on Amazon. I thought that with the newer models, prices would have come down a bit recently. But it is still worthy every penny.

GregHarris · Mar 10, 2009

Just bought the 305. It's going for under 150 on ebay right now. It's a great value buy, and better then the 405.

Anyone else running in the Ras na hEireann 5k this weekend?

BleacherFan · Mar 10, 2009

GregHarris said:
Just bought the 305. It's going for under 150 on ebay right now. It's a great value buy, and better then the 405.

Anyone else running in the Ras na hEireann 5k this weekend?

You and 3,000 of your closest friends in Davis Sq?

That area must be a mess for races like that and the "Gobble x 3".

I might be racing Sunday in Malden - a 10k

Dave

GregHarris · Mar 10, 2009

BleacherFan said:
You and 3,000 of your closest friends in Davis Sq?

That area must be a mess for races like that and the "Gobble x 3".

I might be racing Sunday in Malden - a 10k

Dave

It can be tough, but it's not bad for the free drinks afterwards!

Support local bars and all...

I try to move my way up to the front. I am out of my league there, but I am ahead of the mess in back, I just pull over after the first klick and lets the speedsters pass me.

underhandtofirst · Mar 13, 2009

A few people have mentioned the Garmin Forerunner 305. I have been reading some reviews and many say that the instant pace is all over the place, has anyone else seen this? To me this would make it almost a waste. Well the analysis after the run does look interesting, but getting the pace right during the workout would help.

I'm set to run the Westford 10k the first Sunday in May. My 10k PR is 44:12, although I beat that by a few seconds during some tempo runs last fall. The goal is to go under 42. It is a weird course because about 1 mile in there is a huge downhill. The elevation drops 200 ft in just over 1/2 mile. You obviously go faster, but it is so steep you have to hold yourself back a little. From about the 3 mile mark to the finish it is a steady climb up 200ft. If I can go under 42 here I think I'm well positioned for a run at 3:15 this fall.

BleacherFan · Mar 13, 2009

underhandtofirst said:
From about the 3 mile mark to the finish it is a steady climb up 200ft

3 miles to go up 200ft?

Yah, the 5 and 10k's intersect right at the base of that hill - and it's a tough one at that! I ran the 5k a few years ago and you're right - that 1st mile is fast

Dave

rbeaud · Mar 14, 2009

underhandtofirst said:
A few people have mentioned the Garmin Forerunner 305. I have been reading some reviews and many say that the instant pace is all over the place, has anyone else seen this? To me this would make it almost a waste. Well the analysis after the run does look interesting, but getting the pace right during the workout would help.

I would have to agree on the instant pace, although I haven't used it enough to be really certain. I tried it for last weekend's race and found it was difficult to match my pace to the goal pace during the race start. Now there is an option to increase the data collection rate which I have not invoked. That may help with the fidelity. Maybe I'll give that a try tomorrow. I still love my Garmin enough to think everyone should have a copy...

BleacherFan · Mar 15, 2009

rbeaud said:
I would have to agree on the instant pace, although I haven't used it enough to be really certain. I tried it for last weekend's race and found it was difficult to match my pace to the goal pace during the race start. Now there is an option to increase the data collection rate which I have not invoked. That may help with the fidelity. Maybe I'll give that a try tomorrow. I still love my Garmin enough to think everyone should have a copy...

Hope you raced well - 4 miler right?

Well for me - it's gut-check time. I would appreciate any feedback from my lastest week of training. I honestly don't know if I'm in shape for my goal - I wanted this to be another tough week training - but I didn't envision running this hard. I knew subconsciously that next week I would be losing access to the gym in the morning due to spring break. This would necessitate me to run during lunch and after dinner. Depending on my work schedule I might not be able to get the ideal mileage so I think I went a little harder this week.

Overall I think it went well - considering I haven't had a day off since late January, my legs felt for the most part, strong. One thing I've done the last few weeks is starting incorporating more hills into my normal running days. I have been using some loops up/down Winter Hill in Medford/Somerville to do so. I go up and down the hills over and over again - these hills are between .6 and .7 and ~4% grade. I'll always be going up or down - no flat areas:

* Monday I did 8.8 miles with 5.2 of these hills I just described.

* Tuesday I did my Fresh Pond loop but ran it harder with a few spots doing sub 6:00 - average pace 6:28

* Wednesday I did another 9.2 mile tempo hard - 6:35 pace. In the middle I did 2 miles of hill repeats (.5 up .5 down x2) on a hill with ~5% grade

* Thursday I did my hill loop again - 9.1 with 6.5 miles of said hills - 6:37 pace

* Friday I did a nine mile tempo run on the track (5:58,5:58,5:59,6:00,5:59,6:03,6:01,6:01,5:40) - pushed last mile - overall felt good

* Saturday I did a progression 19M run - wanted to push it as much as I could along the way. I'd be lying if I said the last few
miles weren't hard - this scares me a little bit. Pace: 6:24

* Sunday I did 9.1 easy @ 6:45 pace - recovered great and felt good

M-F I also ran recovery runs of 3-3.5 miles also - overall mileage ~92 (@6:36 pace roughly)

Why did 6:24 pace feel hard for 19 miles? Should I have felt this way?
Was it my hard week of training?
Is it the lack of rest?
Lack of company?
Lack of any fluids before/during?
Overall Mileage?

I guess maybe this is my normal 'lack of confidence' phase of marathon building. I thought it was a very good training week
and I can't wait for my taper to see how i feel fresh..

Dave

underhandtofirst · Mar 16, 2009

BleacherFan said:
Well for me - it's gut-check time. I would appreciate any feedback from my lastest week of training. I honestly don't know if I'm in shape for my goal - I wanted this to be another tough week training - but I didn't envision running this hard. I knew subconsciously that next week I would be losing access to the gym in the morning due to spring break. This would necessitate me to run during lunch and after dinner. Depending on my work schedule I might not be able to get the ideal mileage so I think I went a little harder this week.

Overall I think it went well - considering I haven't had a day off since late January, my legs felt for the most part, strong. One thing I've done the last few weeks is starting incorporating more hills into my normal running days. I have been using some loops up/down Winter Hill in Medford/Somerville to do so. I go up and down the hills over and over again - these hills are between .6 and .7 and ~4% grade. I'll always be going up or down - no flat areas:

I'm always amazed how many hard days you do in a row. All those hills and intervals must run you into the ground!

A question about your tempo runs. What was your half marathon time? I recall it was around 1:18 or so, which is 5:57 mile pace. That to me means you should be running your tempo runs at least that fast and maybe even a bit faster. My reading says you want to run them between your 15k and HM pace. Faster runners (you) should be closer to HM pace, slower runners closer to 15k pace. The goal is to run at a pace just below your lactate threshold (LT) so your body learns to clear lactate out at faster paces.

I think your goal for Boston is around 2:35-2:40 (5:54-6:06 pace). I wonder if running your tempo runs 15 or so seconds faster might help make your race pace easier to maintain. With that said those long runs at MP are good too just to get into a groove. And of course they will be hard.

Personal experience flashback. Last year I ran a 15k time trial on the Baystate course 24 days before the race. So obviously this was just before my taper started. I finished it with an average pace of 7:12 and I was dying at the end. In fact I struggled to keep my pace in low 7:20s for the last couple miles before I started my kick. During the BSM I felt nice cruising at 7:24-7:26 for over 15 miles in the middle of the race. What I'm trying to say is that if 6:00 pace felt good for 9 miles I'd expect that to translate very well to Boston in a few weeks after a full taper. Another thing I did last fall was do a 16M run after a day off a two weeks before the race. I cruised along at 30 seconds over my eventual MP and had plenty at the end to kick in the last 3 miles at MP -30 seconds. The run was a big confidence booster and showed me that the taper was going to work well.

Here is the entry in my log:

First long run after a complete day off in months. Had goal to run a bit quicker. Felt really good the entire run especially with the temp. Legs felt a little tighter the last 4 miles so it wasnt as easy to pick up the pace. They werent tired, but it just took more effort to get the turnover. Pushed the last 3 miles or so including a big push to get the entire run sub 8:00.

BleacherFan · Mar 16, 2009

underhandtofirst said:
A question about your tempo runs. What was your half marathon time? I recall it was around 1:18 or so, which is 5:57 mile pace. That to me means you should be running your tempo runs at least that fast and maybe even a bit faster. My reading says you want to run them between your 15k and HM pace. Faster runners (you) should be closer to HM pace, slower runners closer to 15k pace. The goal is to run at a pace just below your lactate threshold (LT) so your body learns to clear lactate out at faster paces.

My half PR is ~1:14:30 though I feel I could run the same course in 1:14 (5:38 pace). So maybe I could cut down on the volume of MP miles (9 last week) (5:58-6:00) and maybe do what, 4-5 miles at this pace or slightly quicker?

Personal experience flashback. Last year I ran a 15k time trial on the Baystate course 24 days before the race. So obviously this was just before my taper started. I finished it with an average pace of 7:12 and I was dying at the end. In fact I struggled to keep my pace in low 7:20s for the last couple miles before I started my kick. During the BSM I felt nice cruising at 7:24-7:26 for over 15 miles in the middle of the race.

That's good to hear - I also remember hearing an interview somewhere with Ryan Hall before he smoked the American half record and he was talking about how he was doing mile repeats (like 3-4 of them) the week before at 4:40 pace and was wondering how the hell he could hold that pace for 13.1 and he managed to run like 4:3X for 13.1 miles

Thanks,
Dave

underhandtofirst · Mar 16, 2009

BleacherFan said:
My half PR is ~1:14:30 though I feel I could run the same course in 1:14 (5:38 pace). So maybe I could cut down on the volume of MP miles (9 last week) (5:58-6:00) and maybe do what, 4-5 miles at this pace or slightly quicker?
That's good to hear - I also remember hearing an interview somewhere with Ryan Hall before he smoked the American half record and he was talking about how he was doing mile repeats (like 3-4 of them) the week before at 4:40 pace and was wondering how the hell he could hold that pace for 13.1 and he managed to run like 4:3X for 13.1 miles

Thanks,
Dave

At my current fitness level I can handle 4 miles at HM pace and last fall I was up to 7 at HM pace with 2M w/u and c/d on each end. I think you could try 6-7 at 5:40 or so just to see how it feels. Dont expect it to be a cake walk, but do expect to have to push to keep the pace the last couple miles. Dont do hills or anything hard the day before. You'll get a better workout if you're not wiped out. I felt handling the pain from a longer (>6 mile) tempo run helped me during the marathon. The year before I did 4x2M at HM pace with a 2 min recovery, which I think was easier than 7 miles straight.

I found my 7 mile tempo run I ran 2 months before the marathon.
1.78 w/u @ mp + 45 seconds
7 mile tempo @ mp - 30 seconds
2.78 c/d at @ mp + 30 seconds

Details of the tempo portion:

Code:

My avg HR during the marathon was 161, my avg HR during a HM is 166 just to give you an idea what the effort level was during my run.

edit: At no point have I ever been near your fitness level!

BleacherFan · Mar 16, 2009

underhandtofirst said:
At my current fitness level I can handle 4 miles at HM pace and last fall I was up to 7 at HM pace with 2M w/u and c/d on each end. I think you could try 6-7 at 5:40 or so just to see how it feels. Dont expect it to be a cake walk, but do expect to have to push to keep the pace the last couple miles. Dont do hills or anything hard the day before. You'll get a better workout if you're not wiped out. I felt handling the pain from a longer (>6 mile) tempo run helped me during the marathon. The year before I did 4x2M at HM pace with a 2 min recovery, which I think was easier than 7 miles straight.

Cool, I'll give it a shot this week. When I wasn't doing marathon building, I was alternating workouts every other week - a longer one at PMP and a shorter once faster (like 1/2 pace). I'll probably try something like 1 mile wu, 1 mile at MP and then 3 or 4 at faster pace. I find it easier to jump from 6:00 to 5:4X then straight from wu..

One of the things that will make it easier this week is running at 11am on the track vs 7am. It's an extra challenge in itself to run with the layers in the cold , etc...

Dave

rbeaud · Mar 16, 2009

BleacherFan said:
Hope you raced well - 4 miler right?

I won't event begin to comment on your training as it exceeds my capabilities! Now back to me

The 4M went well. Nice and flat, which helped as the last mile was rough. It didn't help I had to pee during the whole race! The good part was I found a female runner to pace. My start was still too quick as I hit .5M @ 5:23. Got to work on that one...

1M: 5:56; 2M: 6:10; 3M: 6:14; 4M: 6:03; 24:29 (under my 24:30 goal by a whisker and 18:59 by my watch for 5k!), 26th o/all. The finish wasn't so quick as past 3.8M it turned into loose gravel. I concentrated on finding solid footing rather than sprinting (tho I'm not sure there was much left this time).

As an aside, this was the most FUBAR race of my young (4th) career. There were kids fun runs schedule right by race signup which was .25M from the race start. Most of the racers clearly did not know where to be so the kids were surrounded by adults trying to stretch. Then the timers failed to grab the bib# as kids crossed the line; my daughter was second but was never posted. It got so bad that during the awards, a girl was in tears as the announcer ignored her plea that she was first and the awarded child acknowledged the incorrect posting. And I'm sure I was one of many that would have enjoyed seeing their child compete in the 1M run (oldest was #3 o/all!) but somehow the starts were nearly coincident by race day. Well, at least until the 4M start was delayed by 25 minutes (I could have used that for a port-o visit!). Bib issues continued with the adults as the guy behind me in the pic taken by the wife didn't get posted either. I hope to never participate in something so screwey again.

rbeaud · Mar 16, 2009

In this weekend's 4M, I played with the Garmin for pacing. There is a menu option that adjusts the pace smoothing. I believe the default is "smoothest"; I went to least for this race. It was better than before, though certainly not instantaneous. I also used the pace zones to have an alert for over 6:15 which helped me with my race target. Between the better pace data and the alert, I was more concious of my actual pace.

Definintely not perfect yet then neither is my ability to hold pace.

rbeaud · Mar 16, 2009

On Friday's run (4M easy) the ball of my foot was hurting. On transitioning to my around town shoes, I realized the forefoot cushioning of my running shoes was shot. Checked the Garmin; 270+ miles plus at least 120 treadmill miles = shot shoes. Good news is that new Ascics 2140's feel much better. Bad news is the ball of my foot is still sore today (10k easy; back on metric treadmills in England!). Any thoughts? Yeah, I can hear you say "stop running" already.

Also, what does everyone do with their old shoes? I've got four pairs now and only need so many "yard" shoes...

bandito0 · Mar 16, 2009

I've been running for the last 5 years or so, and I've been around a 5k distance during most of my "longer" runs. I've decided to start training for the Broad Street Run in May, which is a 10 miler, so that means I have to up my mileage quite a bit to make sure I am able to complete this run.

I started running farther 2 weeks ago, culminating in a 6 mile run on Monday of last week. I went out Wednesday of that same week to try and add another 5-6 miles when I felt a pain on the outside of my right knee around mile 3. I shrugged it off and kept going, which was a dumb move because the pain spread throughout my entire knee. I stopped and limped home. I read some stuff online about Iliotibial Band Syndrome (That's my non MD diagnosis) and was curious if anyone had this particular injury before and how long it took to get back to 100%. Any kind of other treatment methods would be appreciated. I've been icing and resting, not doing anything until today. If it helps, I'm 26 with no major knee injuries in the past.

I'm dying to get back out. I did an interval workout on the treadmill a little while ago and felt a slight twinge but nothing serious. Compared to an actual run however, that stuff is Bush League.

sass a thon · Mar 17, 2009

rbeaud said:
Also, what does everyone do with their old shoes? I've got four pairs now and only need so many "yard" shoes...

donate old running shoes

BleacherFan · Mar 17, 2009

underhandtofirst said:
Dont do hills or anything hard the day before. You'll get a better workout if you're not wiped out.

Heh, these days I've been making it tough the whole week so I figured why not try today! What do you make of this workout:

wu to the track and 2 laps to make it one mile

5:10 (have I mentioned I can't pace to save my life?) - wayyy to hard
5:24
5:22

After these three miles I was ready to call it a day - I reached oxygen debt way too early so I backed off on the next few laps - then a weird thing happened - I went through the 3rd lap in like 4:3X and went 'i'm on MP and it's freeking easy'

6:06

Then I picked it up and the next mile felt effortless: 5:33

Same for the next one though I pushed and ran a 75 sec last 400: 5:26

So, 6 miles with a 'break' after 3 miles: 5:10,5:24,5:22,6:06,5:33,5:26 - average pace 5:30

As an example, I ran an 11k @ this pace last November. I think once I got in my 'groove' pace of 5:30-5:35 I felt a lot better. I wish I had more time to grind out a few more and I wish I could get a good pace down. A 1:13 half is 5:35 pace and it would be interesting if I could handle 6+ of these straight. My gut tells me I could..

Dave

underhandtofirst · Mar 17, 2009

BleacherFan said:
Heh, these days I've been making it tough the whole week so I figured why not try today! What do you make of this workout:

wu to the track and 2 laps to make it one mile

5:10 (have I mentioned I can't pace to save my life?) - wayyy to hard
5:24
5:22

After these three miles I was ready to call it a day - I reached oxygen debt way too early so I backed off on the next few laps - then a weird thing happened - I went through the 3rd lap in like 4:3X and went 'i'm on MP and it's freeking easy'

6:06

Then I picked it up and the next mile felt effortless: 5:33

Same for the next one though I pushed and ran a 75 sec last 400: 5:26

So, 6 miles with a 'break' after 3 miles: 5:10,5:24,5:22,6:06,5:33,5:26 - average pace 5:30

As an example, I ran an 11k @ this pace last November. I think once I got in my 'groove' pace of 5:30-5:35 I felt a lot better. I wish I had more time to grind out a few more and I wish I could get a good pace down. A 1:13 half is 5:35 pace and it would be interesting if I could handle 6+ of these straight. My gut tells me I could..

Dave

I hear you on pacing, although I've found after a couple times I'm much better at nailing HMP than MP.

How do you feel running that long on the track? Also, at your pace those turns much do some real work on your ankles, legs and hips, do you switch directions?

That's a nice workout. If you can get your mind thinking that MP is a relaxed pace you'll be in good shape. Running near your LT pace will help your body flush out that lacate at higher effort levels which should enable to you keep MP even longer. It does appear that you could handle 6+ of those and this isnt even race conditions with the extra adrenaline.

I recall reading Alberto Salazar used to run mile repeats at 4:30, 5:00, 4:30, etc to help condition himself to thinking that 5min mile was more of a resting pace.

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