Interesting thought. If BB had left first and Brady is today announcing his departure, does it tip the scales the other way since it also means it's all over?
Let’s talk about our feelings - whose departure impacted you the most?
- Thread starter BigSoxFan
- Start date
I voted Bill. When Brady left, it seemed to me like any other player making a decision about his own future. It was disappointing, but while the organization deserves some blame, it was really Brady making his own decision. Also, it felt at the time like he was nearing the end of his effectiveness as an elite quarterback.
Belichick OTOH was the man responsible for instituting the "Patriot Way." Because he wasn't allowed to retire on his own terms, overseeing and contributing to the transition and maintaining cultural continuity, instead this move throws the organization into chaos. In fact, I don't think fans, the media or even (or especially) the Krafts fully understand what's about to happen. The organization is now forced to essentially start from scratch.
Belichick OTOH was the man responsible for instituting the "Patriot Way." Because he wasn't allowed to retire on his own terms, overseeing and contributing to the transition and maintaining cultural continuity, instead this move throws the organization into chaos. In fact, I don't think fans, the media or even (or especially) the Krafts fully understand what's about to happen. The organization is now forced to essentially start from scratch.
Brady's record without Belichick, 37-20, 5 playoff wins, 1 Super Bowl.
Belichick without Brady, 84-103, 1 playoff win. Belichick with Brady, 249-75. 6 Super Bowls.
Obviously a lot goes into why, Cleveland years are tough to judge, rebuild post Brady was tough, Brady did go to a solid Tampa Bay team, etc. But still, those records aren't rounding errors, it's a massive difference. Standard deviations of difference.
Bill is the best defensive mind in the history of the NFL. And he's the best coach in the history of the NFL. But Brady undoubtedly elevated his record, because it was a perfect match. (Bill ran the team and the D, Brady the offense)
Without Brady, Bill didn't come close to winning a playoff game with NE. Without Bill, Brady won the Super Bowl less than 11 months after he left the Pats.
I think no doubt, at least in my case. I might even feel worse today if things went in that order, especially if the success had continued.
It's a collaboration. Bill Belichick didn't throw touchdowns, and Tom Brady didn't tell Flores to tell Butler "Three Corners, Malcom, Go!"
The most successful collaboration I'll ever see. And it's over. That would always be the hardest for me, I think.
I'll never understand why so many people completely disregard Belichick's work before Brady especially as DC under Parcells in the whole "it was Brady not Bill" bullshit. Lawrence Taylor and the big tuna might have something to say about that.
Bill motherfuckin' Belichick made his bones when Tom Brady was banging cheerleaders
Bill motherfuckin' Belichick made his bones when Tom Brady was banging cheerleaders
The Brady or Belichick “debate” always drives me crazy. They were a perfect partnership which is why they won so many titles. Randy understands how important to his success Belichick was, and BB understands the same about Brady.
Something else just occurred to me. Outside of the obvious historical insanity of winning a 7th Super Bowl, I didn’t really give a shit about Tom winning again.
Meanwhile, I truly hope that Bill is able to win 1 or 2 without Tom. Now, admittedly, a lot of that probably has to do with me feeling like Bill hasn’t been getting a fair shake from the general public ever since Tom won without him in Tampa. But it’s also because of how they each departed us, respectively.
I just wish Bill could have gotten that 7th with us somehow.
Meanwhile, I truly hope that Bill is able to win 1 or 2 without Tom. Now, admittedly, a lot of that probably has to do with me feeling like Bill hasn’t been getting a fair shake from the general public ever since Tom won without him in Tampa. But it’s also because of how they each departed us, respectively.
I just wish Bill could have gotten that 7th with us somehow.
It's definitely BB, and it's not just recency bias. Brady left for money and further glory on a packed team that just needed a QB, and even though 2019 was a bummer year, he still had skills and proved it. BB is just flat out fired due to extended failure for a major portion of his job, even if his gameplanning and defensive mindset are as sharp as ever. That sucks, man.
It is close but Brady, but mainly because I felt like Brady still had something left in the tank, and I feel like Bill is done or close to done. Both hurt but I don't feel like this one is as much of a mistake.
If Brady was coming off his worst season ever and showing signs of losing it but the Pats were losing BB after an 11 win season and a playoff birth I might feel differently.
If Brady was coming off his worst season ever and showing signs of losing it but the Pats were losing BB after an 11 win season and a playoff birth I might feel differently.
Let's not analyze sports results on a website that was formed to discuss sports results?
Sorry. Have at it. Nothing personal, I just find this particular conversation drives me crazy.
Me too. Plenty of threads for analysis, this is about how we feel. I mean, it's in the title.
It's probably for a different thread, but Brady winning a title in Tampa doesn't necessarily prove anything IMO (and I'm a "Brady was more important than BB" guy). The brilliance of BB was manifested in the fact that they kept finding ways to reinvent themselves and win it all. Any idiot coach can win a single title. Barry Switzer. Mike McCarty. Bruce Arians. Things come together for a year and voila, champs. But when you look at Dungy and Manning only winning once, Rodgers only winning once, etc., you see why BB was so important.
Bill by far, for many of the reasons stated by others
but also because I really enjoyed his personality and as a person I find him to be much more relatable than Brady. Nothing against Brady the player, but Bill’s press conferences, dry humor, ability to talk about obscure plays from 30 years ago, go at length about long snappers, he was just as legendary in my mind outside of game day as he was while he was coaching on Sundays.
The Mona Lisa Vito quip, on to Cincinnati and 100 other “Bill being Bill” moments are a part of this dynasty that I’ll cherish forever.
Brady is the GOAT but to me he’s just a legendary athlete. Bill is a legendary coach and a fascinating character/personality. My last memory of him as a coach will be him screaming wildly at the refs, covered in snow, face obscured with a mask while his hapless team floundered against the Jets in a miserable season. Even as he knew the ship was sinking, in a game that didn’t really matter, he was doing everything he could to coach and do his job the same way he’d done for two decades prior.
but also because I really enjoyed his personality and as a person I find him to be much more relatable than Brady. Nothing against Brady the player, but Bill’s press conferences, dry humor, ability to talk about obscure plays from 30 years ago, go at length about long snappers, he was just as legendary in my mind outside of game day as he was while he was coaching on Sundays.
The Mona Lisa Vito quip, on to Cincinnati and 100 other “Bill being Bill” moments are a part of this dynasty that I’ll cherish forever.
Brady is the GOAT but to me he’s just a legendary athlete. Bill is a legendary coach and a fascinating character/personality. My last memory of him as a coach will be him screaming wildly at the refs, covered in snow, face obscured with a mask while his hapless team floundered against the Jets in a miserable season. Even as he knew the ship was sinking, in a game that didn’t really matter, he was doing everything he could to coach and do his job the same way he’d done for two decades prior.
Brady hurt but it was clear he wanted out.
Bill doesn't feel like he wants out - and I don't think he's 'done' yet. This is a reactionary move to a team that hasn't performed, but he's won enough to earn the right to leave when he wants to.
Either way, Kraft continues to look stupid IMO.
Bill doesn't feel like he wants out - and I don't think he's 'done' yet. This is a reactionary move to a team that hasn't performed, but he's won enough to earn the right to leave when he wants to.
Either way, Kraft continues to look stupid IMO.
When you have the roster in as bad a shape as it is you don't get to write your own ticket when you want to leave no matter how many Super Bowls you have won. I don't think this is a stupid move. The league has caught up to BB so he doesn't give them a major advantage anymore like he has in the past.
Eh. His Defense is still great, even after losing their two best players. The offense was awful but led by horrible QB's. Now there's rumblings that Kraft made them go with Mac, and was meddling with the team. I just don't think winning it all matters, allow him to cook until he wants to hang them up.
There's a distinct lack of loyalty in professional sports. People retiring with the same team. Now we are just forced to root for laundry, but the laundry doesn't mean anything. It's the people inside. Bill was the soul of this team and it's a bummer to push him out because of one very bad season.
You know who was also pushed out after one really bad season? Tom Landry. It worked well for Dallas. Not saying that the Patriots will replicate that model but I don’t think they were winning anything again with Belichick and we were just circling the wagons for a personal record for him instead of doing what’s best for franchise.
I'm not sure if it was you or someone else that said this exact thing to what I said (which was the same). Just major deja vu.
Anyway, Tom Landry did well. But I don't expect that. I just want continuity and let the legend leave on his own terms.
Today is definitely worse, at least in terms of how it feels. It was a huge mistake to not retain Brady (whether you want to frame it as pushing him out or not), but I never had any illusions he had 5+ seasons left. Ironically, had all gone right he might have, but again, hindsight.
I had essentially 100% faith the team would be competitive as long as Bill was here. If you asked me after the second Rams SB who I'd rather see in New England longer I'd have said BB 100 out of 100 times. Not because of mis-assigned credit for who was the reason they were good, but because I viewed them roughly equal and thought even in his late 60s, the coach had a significantly longer shelf life than the QB barring tragedy.
How much TB had left in the tank and how badly the last 4 years have gone in NE both surprised me. And even with that, I still think Bill would have pulled them out of the abyss. Give me a good quarterback and talent on defense and my choice of any coach in the league and I'm still picking Bill over just about anyone. So while Brady leaving sucked because it was obviously even at the time a major signifier that the great times were behind us, I could understand and even back the idea that the future would still be bright for a while longer. I could see this move working out for all sides, but it’s weird that the great thing that was is now for real completely over.
I had essentially 100% faith the team would be competitive as long as Bill was here. If you asked me after the second Rams SB who I'd rather see in New England longer I'd have said BB 100 out of 100 times. Not because of mis-assigned credit for who was the reason they were good, but because I viewed them roughly equal and thought even in his late 60s, the coach had a significantly longer shelf life than the QB barring tragedy.
How much TB had left in the tank and how badly the last 4 years have gone in NE both surprised me. And even with that, I still think Bill would have pulled them out of the abyss. Give me a good quarterback and talent on defense and my choice of any coach in the league and I'm still picking Bill over just about anyone. So while Brady leaving sucked because it was obviously even at the time a major signifier that the great times were behind us, I could understand and even back the idea that the future would still be bright for a while longer. I could see this move working out for all sides, but it’s weird that the great thing that was is now for real completely over.
I voted Bill. I was very disappointed that Tom left, but that was his choice. My feeling at the time was that as long as we had Bill, we would at least be competitive. The Patriots would continue to be the envy of the NFL.
Now, it didn't work out that way for a variety of reasons. But I was still holding out hope that Bill, with multiple high round picks and some cap space would turn it around next year. It's over, and I'm sad.
But we are so lucky we had him for all these years. I hope he wins another Super Bowl. (As long as it's not against the Pats)
Now, it didn't work out that way for a variety of reasons. But I was still holding out hope that Bill, with multiple high round picks and some cap space would turn it around next year. It's over, and I'm sad.
But we are so lucky we had him for all these years. I hope he wins another Super Bowl. (As long as it's not against the Pats)
Bill for sure. Tom was a player. Sure, maybe the player, but a player.
Bill is the Godfather of New England Football. It's a family thing.
Bill is the Godfather of New England Football. It's a family thing.
I don’t think Kraft looks stupid at all. It might be a mistake, but he doesn’t look stupid.
It’s a fucking bold move, and really not that much different than choosing Bill over Brady four years ago. The situation was not sustainable as is, he was forced to make a tough call and he made it. This time he wasn’t choosing coach over player, but he was choosing what he thinks is best for the franchise over sentimentality.
I honestly have no clue if this is the right move or not but unless you are on team “BB gets to coach until he doesn’t want to anymore” I don’t know how anyone can say sitting here right now that it’s not the right move.
It’s a fucking bold move, and really not that much different than choosing Bill over Brady four years ago. The situation was not sustainable as is, he was forced to make a tough call and he made it. This time he wasn’t choosing coach over player, but he was choosing what he thinks is best for the franchise over sentimentality.
I honestly have no clue if this is the right move or not but unless you are on team “BB gets to coach until he doesn’t want to anymore” I don’t know how anyone can say sitting here right now that it’s not the right move.
Brady.
I was pretty sure it was over when he left.
And it was.
And as good a coach as BB is/was he could not overcome and outcoach the changes that the NFL instituted to promote offense.
I was pretty sure it was over when he left.
And it was.
And as good a coach as BB is/was he could not overcome and outcoach the changes that the NFL instituted to promote offense.
Th extent of the sentiment for Bill really surprises me. That’s not a knock of any kind.
Tom Brady was the quintessential superstar for me. I felt incredibly privileged to have been able to root for him. I identified with him having been absurdly accused and convicted regarding DeflateGate.
I also blamed Bill for what I perceived be the latter’s role in Tom’s departure. Rightly or not.
For me, Tom leaving for another freaking team was crushing and seemed both unnecessary and a self inflicted would.
As much as I appreciate Bill, and am grateful for his role in all things Patriots, I also hoped he would move on at this time. Again, rightly or wrongly.
This is not a tough question for me and I expected to see very different results.
Very interesting….
Tom Brady was the quintessential superstar for me. I felt incredibly privileged to have been able to root for him. I identified with him having been absurdly accused and convicted regarding DeflateGate.
I also blamed Bill for what I perceived be the latter’s role in Tom’s departure. Rightly or not.
For me, Tom leaving for another freaking team was crushing and seemed both unnecessary and a self inflicted would.
As much as I appreciate Bill, and am grateful for his role in all things Patriots, I also hoped he would move on at this time. Again, rightly or wrongly.
This is not a tough question for me and I expected to see very different results.
Very interesting….
Perhaps one of the few silver linings?
Now that both Bill and Tom are gone, the league vendetta against the Pats has to be over, right? Right?
Of course, it doesn’t really matter anymore. Maybe without all that lost draft pick capital over the years, Tom didn’t have to leave
Belichick for me.
I got a text this morning at 7:30......my first thought was "Oh man, who died?"................then I read it, it was my best friend telling me Belichick was out as HC of the NEP.
I was right with my reaction; the dynasty died today.
When Brady left, he was dead to me, the number of Patriots "fans" who became Tampa fans astounded me, adios, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out, go root for Tampa and Brady.
"When Tom comes to Foxboro to play the Patriots, I'll be in the stands rooting for him with my Brady Tampa jersey on."
Sounds like a solid plan, good luck.
Wherever Bill lands, I will wish him nothing but the best.
I got a text this morning at 7:30......my first thought was "Oh man, who died?"................then I read it, it was my best friend telling me Belichick was out as HC of the NEP.
I was right with my reaction; the dynasty died today.
When Brady left, he was dead to me, the number of Patriots "fans" who became Tampa fans astounded me, adios, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out, go root for Tampa and Brady.
"When Tom comes to Foxboro to play the Patriots, I'll be in the stands rooting for him with my Brady Tampa jersey on."
Sounds like a solid plan, good luck.
Wherever Bill lands, I will wish him nothing but the best.
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Honestly it's BB for miles and miles, in terms of impact. Brady wouldn't be Brady without BB providing the opportunity and coaching. That's not to downplay the GOAT in any shape or form (BB himself is on the record naming TB as the greatest player in the history of the game). The Patriots were not winning 6 titles w/o Brady at QB, and possibly none at all.
But it was BB the architect, in this team sport - in the era of salary cap and FA, who coached/managed this team in all three phases. And that led to this incredible sustainability of success, for 20+ years.
This right here, today, is the the end of the era. And damn if it doesn't hurt.
But it was BB the architect, in this team sport - in the era of salary cap and FA, who coached/managed this team in all three phases. And that led to this incredible sustainability of success, for 20+ years.
This right here, today, is the the end of the era. And damn if it doesn't hurt.
BB the HC had one very bad season. BB the GM/talent evaluator has been below average for a few seasons. Most damningly he failed to secure a good QB which is fatal to any hope of seriously contending, but to be fair the all around record has not been good. BB the HC reaped what BB the GM (failed to) sow.
Its a fair question, whether the game has passed him by in terms of Xs and Os and game day scheming. I personally think so. The caveat is that he may not have the horses. But that’s on him.
BB the chief of staff also seems to have lost it. In his heyday his selection and development of coordinators and assistants was integral to his success. Not looking good for him in that regard over the past few seasons.
It is nothing but recency bias. Bill left yesterday, nobody can see in front of their face.
Nonsense. Typical nonsense. As I said earlier, it's a collaboration. Bill didn't throw touchdowns and Tom didn't call "three corners, Malcolm, go!". This thread is about how the news hit people, not about who did more for the franchise, anyway. I've made clear my feelings are based on a lot more than that.
People have gone to great lengths to explain themselves, myself included. You dismiss the finality of Bill leaving as if it's irrelevant. I'm going to say this as clearly as possible, because someone has to. You are not the arbiter of truth. You consistently treat people's opinions that don't line up with yours with contempt, and are never open to really exploring the point of view of others you disagree with or to acknowledge their validity. I just thought you ought to know that it doesn't go unnoticed.
I'm seeing more people openly talking about how they'll follow Bill and fuck the Patriots on Twitter than I ever saw regarding Brady.
One wanted out and left on their own and one was forced out.
Also, I said something like this in another thread. Bill very much felt like a person from Massachusetts, Brady as he has aged is very clearly someone from California.
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Yeah, I think this is an oversimplification. I could very easily construe it as "Brady was pushed out while he still could play and Bill fired for poor performance, so it's more justifiable to still root for Brady elsewhere".
I knew Brady was leaving so I was prepared when it happened. But right up until the news broke I really thought BB would be back. So for me it’s Bill.
Just saying "Brady wanted out," over and over doesn't mean it's true. The team made it pretty clear to Brady he wasn't a priority at the end. They could have signed him and chose not to.
It's a post in response to why more people on Twitter are talking about following Bill than Brady.
Not a discussion about what happened. Which at its core was a player choosing not to stay here
There's selection bias at play here right? Brady literally chose a team loaded with offensive weapons and primed to compete. To his credit, he didn't make things worse and maximized the potential of the team by winning a Superbowl. OTOH, after 2019, Bellichick's task was to rebuild a team that up to that point had been built to win over the short term at the expense of the long term. You can argue along similar lines about Bellichick's tenure in Cleveland.
Still, the most potent criticism against him is that he failed as a GM after 2019. Personally, I am a very casual NFL fan, but one opinion I have developed after casually following the NFL over the past 20 years is that it's extremely hard to find a good quarterback. How many franchises have roamed in the wilderness getting high draft picks and the QBs of the future only for those picks to go bust? So yeah, maybe Bellichick screwed the poooch as a GM, but are we perhaps suffering from base rate fallacy? Is it possible that drafting well, let alone drafting a franchise QB is extremely difficult if not a close to a complete crapshoot? I think it's a likely possibility.
I would also add that one of Bellichick's insights that made him successful for so long was treating the draft as a crapshoot. It was this insight that led him to trade for more picks in lower rounds just to give himself bigger odds of hitting. I also think that one of Bellichick's strenghts was going where his analysis led him, conventional wisdom be damned. This of course depends on you being right vis a vis the conventional wisdom and Bellichick often was. The upside of this is that when things go well, you look like a genious, but when things go bad, you not only get heat for sucking, but because your decisions seem inexcplicable.
We had the privilege of seeing the greatest QB and coach of all time perform here.
The team last time I checked is still here.
If people choose to abandon ship over Belichick being fired, so be it.
Just like they chose to abandon ship over Brady leaving.
The majority of them probably started rooting for the team in 2001.
Prior to 2001, this team by and large was a laughing stock, they were fourth in popularity around here outside of two Super Bowl runs behind the Red Sox, Celtics and Bruins.
They owned this region for 20 years thanks to Brady and Belichick.
As the saying goes, I root for the name on the front of the jersey, not the back.
Been a Patriots fan for 55 years, I always will be no matter what, thick and thin, good or bad, they are my team.
For me, it was Bill. When Brady left, I got the sense he was kind of over the Pats - the grind, the "everyone is treated equally including the GOAT" mentality, throwing to Edelman and a bunch of randos, the paycuts, the wonky line towards the end IIRC - he wanted one last legit shot at a ring, money and some recognition and NE wasn't giving him the best of any of those. I don't blame him, but he didn't really want to be here without big changes and walked away. Bill on the other hand, I think wanted to stay here but he and Kraft couldn't agree on the conditions of what that would look like. Combined with BB being the last part of the Pats dynasty (other than the owners), it just hit a bit differently. And I say this as someone who was ready to move on from BB the GM entirely and is hopeful that the next regime is successful.
