Let's Lay Off That Throttle

Delicious Sponge · Jan 20, 2024

One thing about the Red Sox brand - and the intensity of the fan base - is that it's totally changed from where it was when I started watching in 1977.

In 2004, we had been in the desert for 86 years, had an inferiority complex about the Yankees, and had to endure taunts from Yankee fans pretty much constantly.

It changed in 2004, obviously, but winning in 2007 proved it wasn't some kind of a fluke. And then again in 2013 and again in 2018. That whole mentality was killed, dead (or should have been).

It's compelling to be ride or die for a team when there's something to prove that feels personal to you as a fan. It's one reason why that Bane quote is so apt, and it feels like Werner and Henry don't realize what's happened. They're like those Japanese soldiers still fighting WW2 in the 70s.

It's over guys, you need a better plan. You can't take fans for granted anymore.

chawson · Jan 20, 2024

8slim said:
But now we’re right back to the refrain I’ve been reading here for 2 years: the Red Sox FO can’t do anything. Their hands are tied. The market is bereft/overpriced.

No one's arguing that their hands are tied. I think the question is Before getting mad, will you please name the player you want them to sign who'd be appreciably better than the young incumbent player we currently have in the same position?

Replace the fifth starter with Montgomery and yeah, that's an upgrade. Replace the fifth starter (Houck, say) with Seth Lugo to the tune of three-years, $50 million, and I'm not sure that helps, unless it means the incumbent starter is moved in a trade, etc. etc.

SouthernBoSox · Jan 20, 2024

tims4wins said:
Right. No one here would rather be the recent Angels. But, the Sox have zero star power. I’m not going to watch simply to see Raffy hit 4x a game.

I pray Casas is that guy and is here the next 10+ years.

People don’t really fully understand what that kid did the last 4 months of the season as a 23 year old.

Let us pray

YTF · Jan 20, 2024

JCizzle said:
They deserve zero benefit of the doubt at this point. I’ll believe it when it happens and not a second before that.

Agreed. My point being that I don't think we get the opportunity to call them on this, but I very badly want them to be in the position to be called on it.

HfxBob · Jan 20, 2024

chawson said:
No one's arguing that their hands are tied. I think the question is Before getting mad, will you please name the player you want them to sign who'd be appreciably better than the young incumbent player we currently have in the same position?

Replace the fifth starter with Montgomery and yeah, that's an upgrade. Replace the fifth starter (Houck, say) with Seth Lugo to the tune of three-years, $50 million, and I'm not sure that helps, unless it means the incumbent starter is moved in a trade, etc. etc.

Part of the issue with Houck is that he's been much better as a reliever (2.68 ERA, .570 OPSa) than as a starter (4.17 ERA, .680 OPSa), so if you replace him in the rotation, the rotation gets better and the bullpen gets better.

CR67dream · Jan 20, 2024

Philip Jeff Frye said:
At least Angel fans got to experience Trout and Ohtani as individual performers. We're going to be just as mediocre but with that, at least until the franchise saviors in the minors start showing up in a few more years.

Would Sox fans accept this for very long? I'm thinking probably not. It's a nice consolation, I guess, but I'd rather build for the future as unsexy as that sounds. I wouldn't want to be the Angels, or an Angels fan right now.

I grew up watching some great stars, but while Jim Rice moonshots, Evans cannon arm, and Yaz being Yaz were so so much fun to watch, it was the teams that won and went on great runs I appreciated most.

Morgan magic in '88 was truly magic, and the run in '90 was beyond amazing. How about that Jeff Stone! He had a bat in his hand, didn't he? I still get chills. I was able to be in the park for 20+ games that year, including Brunansky's catch (fuck off Ozzie!) and the Stone game and it was an incredible, incredible rush.

Sure, there were some stars on the teams, and Clemens was must see, but it was the collective that mattered a whole hell of a lot more.

tims4wins · Jan 20, 2024

SouthernBoSox said:
I pray Casas is that guy and is here the next 10+ years.

People don’t really fully understand what that kid did the last 4 months of the season as a 23 year old.

Let us pray

Seconded. His numbers were eye popping but not recognized amongst the majority of the fan base.

CR67dream said:
Would Sox fans accept this for very long? I'm thinking probably not. It's a nice consolation, I guess, but I'd rather build for the future as unsexy as that sounds. I wouldn't want to be the Angels, or an Angels fan right now.

I grew up watching some great stars, but while Jim Rice moonshots, Evans cannon arm, and Yaz being Yaz were so so much fun to watch, it was the teams that won and went on great runs I appreciated most.

Morgan magic in '88 was truly magic, and the run in '90 was beyond amazing. How about that Jeff Stone! He had a bat in his hand, didn't he? I still get chills. I was able to be in the park for 20+ games that year, including Brunansky's catch and the Stone game (fuck off Ozzie!) and it was an incredible, incredible rush.

Sure, there were some stars on the teams, and Clemens was must see, but it was the collective that mattered a whole hell of a lot more.

In perpetuity? No. But it’s sure better than wandering the dessert. Everyone who was against the Mookie trade (so, pretty much everyone) has said in some form that if they had Mookie but were the same 78 win team at least they’d be more exciting / fun.

But, this is the sad state of affairs for the 2024 Red Sox. The fact that we are having these discussions is depressing.

chawson · Jan 20, 2024

HfxBob said:
Part of the issue with Houck is that he's been much better as a reliever (2.68 ERA, .570 OPSa) than as a starter (4.17 ERA, .680 OPSa), so if you replace him in the rotation, the rotation gets better and the bullpen gets better.

And a .680 OPS career mark as a starter is extremely good. It's better than Jordan Montgomery put up last year, for example. Seth Lugo had an excellent year in 2023 and his OPS against was .708.

SouthernBoSox · Jan 20, 2024

tims4wins said:
Seconded. His numbers were eye popping but not recognized amongst the majority of the fan base.

In perpetuity? No. But it’s sure better than wandering the dessert. Everyone who was against the Mookie trade (so, pretty much everyone) has said in some form that if they had Mookie but were the same 78 win team at least they’d be more exciting / fun.

But, this is the sad state of affairs for the 2024 Red Sox. The fact that we are having these discussions is depressing.

I think people just stopped watching

His at bat quality was extraordinary. It’s very different how in control he is. Special.

CoffeeNerdness · Jan 20, 2024

NickEsasky said:
Empty seats might be a problem as it affects concessions but I doubt the ownership cares a bit what resale prices are. It’s when the first sales drop they’ll care.

Don't they own/have a partnership with ACE Tickets? The real bread and butter for sports teams, venues, Ticketmaster, and bands is to double dip on retail sales and secondary market.

CR67dream · Jan 20, 2024

tims4wins said:
better than wandering the dessert

I hear you, and that's a fair take. A lot of people couldn't agree more.

Your typo gave me a vision of Werner having his face slammed into a pile of strawberry shortcake at an MGM buffet, so thanks!!

Petagine in a Bottle · Jan 20, 2024

jbupstate said:
The available bats out there are Soler, JDM, Duval and Turner. Duval at least can play the field. None are leading the next, great team and all have downsides.

This was the year (although I think it was last year too) that the team was supposed to convert prospect capital and tons of cash into upgrades for the major league team. I don’t know what players are or were available, but when you have a great farm system and tons of money, which we were told they had in abundance, there should be moves to be made even if they aren’t obvious to us fans.

tims4wins · Jan 20, 2024

CR67dream said:
I hear you, and that's a fair take. A lot of people couldn't agree more.

Your typo gave me a vision of Werner having his face slammed into a pile of strawberry shortcake at an MGM buffet, so thanks!!

I aim to please.

8slim · Jan 20, 2024

chawson said:
No one's arguing that their hands are tied. I think the question is Before getting mad, will you please name the player you want them to sign who'd be appreciably better than the young incumbent player we currently have in the same position?

Replace the fifth starter with Montgomery and yeah, that's an upgrade. Replace the fifth starter (Houck, say) with Seth Lugo to the tune of three-years, $50 million, and I'm not sure that helps, unless it means the incumbent starter is moved in a trade, etc. etc.

And I’ll give the same answer I always do: I’m not the GM. I wouldn’t have suggested Grissom for 2B because I couldn’t have known that Breslow was willing to trade Sale for him.

Scoping out these moves is literally the job of the front office. Not mine.

HfxBob · Jan 20, 2024

chawson said:
And a .680 OPS career mark as a starter is extremely good. It's better than Jordan Montgomery put up last year, for example. Seth Lugo had an excellent year in 2023 and his OPS against was .708.

That's fair. The counterpoint is that Houck's numbers as a starter in 2023 were not so good - 5.01 ERA .742 OPSa.

Ale Xander · Jan 20, 2024

Delicious Sponge said:
One thing about the Red Sox brand - and the intensity of the fan base - is that it's totally changed from where it was when I started watching in 1977.

In 2004, we had been in the desert for 86 years, had an inferiority complex about the Yankees, and had to endure taunts from Yankee fans pretty much constantly.

It changed in 2004, obviously, but winning in 2007 proved it wasn't some kind of a fluke. And then again in 2013 and again in 2018. That whole mentality was killed, dead (or should have been).

It's compelling to be ride or die for a team when there's something to prove that feels personal to you as a fan. It's one reason why that Bane quote is so apt, and it feels like Werner and Henry don't realize what's happened. They're like those Japanese soldiers still fighting WW2 in the 70s.

It's over guys, you need a better plan. You can't take fans for granted anymore.

Unfortunately, the way the calendar and New England tourism works, they can take for it granted it at least in the short term. They don’t play in January and February when Boston has few visitors (although they do have their ticket sales then)

Fenway ownership (whoever it would be) has the Marathon. And this year they are even luckier than most years. Not only do they have the traditional 4 games, but they have a series before AND after. Tons of tourists. Many paying $600 a night for a hotel bed. You know they’re going to the games before and after. Always have, always will, as long as the stadium stays. And they’re lucky no games last couple games in March or first week of April this year.

may. We have a shitton of schools which means a shitton of graduations. Again, tourists (parents/families of graduates) will be in town buying up some tickets.

June-August. Summer, Cape Cod. Etc. July a heavy convention month usually.

September no one (mlb teams) sells tickets this month, look around, unless you have a unique pennant chase and even then. but we have the start of the school season and our best weather and at the end sometimes the start of foliage too.

Celtics and Bruins can’t afford to have this lack of drive to put a good product on the team. Do people not remember how easy it was to get $10 tickets for the days pre-KG and pre-Bergy?
30 games of the season each team you could get them.

pk1627 · Jan 20, 2024

A lot of posts because of some talk at the mighty Winter Weekend. But I agree that the talk pretty much implies that the rebuild continues and we’re not going to get that pitcher. Like a lot here, I felt the Sale dump meant we would. I’m disappointed.

Still like the Sox. Think we have another year of running out of pitching. From a ST perspective, seems to me great seats will be available for cheap.

tims4wins · Jan 20, 2024

Indifference is way worse than anger.

View: https://twitter.com/nbcsboston/status/1748732292736950377?s=46

CoffeeNerdness · Jan 20, 2024

jbupstate said:
They cannot spin for shit.

When you spin one of the biggest loads of shit of all time (Mookie) everything else is gravy.

RedOctober3829 · Jan 20, 2024

Red(s)HawksFan said:
I can see the argument that they haven't addressed the rotation to most folks' satisfaction. But who is the big RH bat that they haven't signed and where does he play when signed? That's a serious question, not trying to be snarky. Was there a significant target before the winter began to fill that spot the way there were specific targets for the rotation (YY, Nola, Montgomery, a trade acquisition, etc)?

Teoscar Hernandez and Jorge Soler could both step right into this lineup and rotate between DH and the OF. As far a starting pitcher, after Yamamoto there is Snell and Montgomery both would be perfect additions both for the short and long term. Soler and the 2 SP's are still out there for the taking, but is anybody seriously thinking they're going to pay what it takes to sign any of them? The resounding answer should be no.

moondog80 · Jan 20, 2024

chawson said:
Replace the fifth starter with Montgomery and yeah, that's an upgrade. Replace the fifth starter (Houck, say) with Seth Lugo to the tune of three-years, $50 million, and I'm not sure that helps, unless it means the incumbent starter is moved in a trade, etc. etc.

You don't think having Lugo (or Stroman, or Wacha, or E-Rod, or whoever) in the rotation, with Houck moved to the bullpen as a multi-inning option, ready and waiting if/when a slot in the rotation comes up, would be an upgrade?

chawson · Jan 20, 2024

RedOctober3829 said:
Teoscar Hernandez and Jorge Soler could both step right into this lineup and rotate between DH and the OF. As far a starting pitcher, after Yamamoto there is Snell and Montgomery both would be perfect additions both for the short and long term. Soler and the 2 SP's are still out there for the taking, but is anybody seriously thinking they're going to pay what it takes to sign any of them? The resounding answer should be no.

Well, if "what it takes" to sign Snell is $240 million, is there any room for reasonable doubt that that's a constructive move?

Ale Xander · Jan 20, 2024

SouthernBoSox said:
I think people just stopped watching

His at bat quality was an extraordinary. It’s very different how in control he is. Special.

That 13 pitch July at bat is going to end up the most watched Red Sox regular season highlight on YouTube in history if it’s not already. But it’s not just the bat quality.

It’s also the baserunning quality (remember the 1st to home on a single?) and the fielding quality and the general joie-de-vivre that he has on a diamond.
Special indeed. Luckily for us Devers has the latter too and I will still try to watch him and YogaCasas as much as I can.

simplicio · Jan 20, 2024

SouthernBoSox said:
I pray Casas is that guy and is here the next 10+ years.

People don’t really fully understand what that kid did the last 4 months of the season as a 23 year old.

Let us pray

Yeah I was going to say Casas AB are definitely appointment viewing for me.

RedOctober3829 · Jan 20, 2024

chawson said:
Well, if "what it takes" to sign Snell is $240 million, is there any room for reasonable doubt that that's a constructive move?

It would be a risk, but do you want to get better or not?

NickEsasky · Jan 20, 2024

Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat said:
I (blindly) wanted them to sign Imanaga. But there are plenty of questions about him, mainly real concerns about his home run rate. Maybe you doubt it was Breslow's decision, but as a pitcher whisperer, it's just as likely that it was. He's evaluating these guys and putting a value on them.
And frankly, I like that. If he didn't think Imanaga is going be very good in the US, I'm glad he didn't outbid the Cubs.
Trying to figure out what decisions came from ownership and what came from management is nearly impossible.

But if he didn’t think he was going to be good in MLB why offer him the two years?

This isn’t directed at you but to the folks who keep mentioning every free agent’s warts and issues. People keep calling for names of who the team should have signed that’s better etc. I want to flip that. Who are the free agents or upcoming free agents who don’t have holes that we need to go all out for? Who are the players we could get who people will feel comfortable with a full throttle pursuit?

chawson · Jan 20, 2024

moondog80 said:
You don't think having Lugo (or Stroman, or Wacha, or E-Rod, or whoever) in the rotation, with Houck moved to the bullpen as a multi-inning option, ready and waiting if/when a slot in the rotation comes up, would be an upgrade?

In most cases, no. E-Rod, maybe, but the questions there are reasonable. (The dude inexplicably took a whole season off for personal/marital/family reasons. No judgment but it seems probable that there's more to the puzzle than we know.)

But no, I don't, especially with Bailey in tow. I did a whole detailed post in the What We Have thread about how Houck matches a lot of the Giants' starters that Bailey recuperated or made significantly better. I've been on record that if the Sox ultimately think Houck is MIRP, they should trade him somewhere that sees him as a starter.

I honestly think the same with Whitlock. The injuries have been frustrating but I think he's better off in the rotation. I'm not totally certain about that — I don't know his medicals — but that's what I think.

moondog80 · Jan 20, 2024

chawson said:
In most cases, no. E-Rod, maybe, but the questions there are reasonable. (The dude inexplicably took a whole season off for personal/marital/family reasons. No judgment but it seems probable that there's more to the puzzle than we know.)

But no, I don't, especially with Bailey in tow. I did a whole detailed post in the What We Have thread about how Houck matches a lot of the Giants' starters that Bailey recuperated or made significantly better. I've been on record that if the Sox ultimately think Houck is MIRP, they should trade him somewhere that sees him as a starter.

I honestly think the same with Whitlock. The injuries have been frustrating but I think he's better off in the rotation. I'm not totally certain about that — I don't know his medicals — but that's what I think.

But again, Whitlock/Houck doesn't die in this scenario. He gets moved to a different role, and if history is any indication, eventually finds his way back in the rotation. You are not replacing Tanner Houck with Marcus Stroman, you are replacing whoever is lined up as the 7th guy in the pen.

This is just one possibility, There are many other ways they could spend right up to the tax without taking on stupid long term contracts. If they wanted to.

jbupstate · Jan 20, 2024

Petagine in a Bottle said:
This was the year (although I think it was last year too) that the team was supposed to convert prospect capital and tons of cash into upgrades for the major league team. I don’t know what players are or were available, but when you have a great farm system and tons of money, which we were told they had in abundance, there should be moves to be made even if they aren’t obvious to us fans.

I put a lot of eggs in that basket as a Bloom defender. THIS was the offseason to flex with money and prospects. All I can say is Boras is holding out three high priced free agent and that seems to be holding up everyone. Once they sign some are going to be left without and that could open things up for trades.

I hope they keep the top three prospects because they seem to offer the potential to match (hopefully exceed) what we have now with for less $ and more control. Sign me up if someone wants one of them that upgrade another part of the team (SP).

rodderick · Jan 20, 2024

moondog80 said:
But again, Whitlock/Houck doesn't die in this scenario. He gets moved to a different role, and if history is any indication, eventually finds his way back in the rotation. You are not replacing Tanner Houck with Marcus Stroman, you are replacing whoever is lined up as the 7th guy in the pen.

This is just one possibility, There are many other ways they could spend right up to the tax without taking on stupid long term contracts. If they wanted to.

It's useless to argue, every single pitcher you cite as someone you believe would have been an improvement will be construed as unattainable because reasons. It's crazy how there were so many players this particular off-season who just were dead set on signing with a particular team and the Sox could have offered them more money and it wouldn't have mattered. Just never had a chance at Nola/Erod/Yamamoto/Stroman/Imanaga, impossible for them to get any of those guys.

Just like Eflin last year just wanted to play in Florida guys, just nothing the FO could have done, oh well.

YTF · Jan 20, 2024

Petagine in a Bottle said:
This was the year (although I think it was last year too) that the team was supposed to convert prospect capital and tons of cash into upgrades for the major league team. I don’t know what players are or were available, but when you have a great farm system and tons of money, which we were told they had in abundance, there should be moves to be made even if they aren’t obvious to us fans.

IMO, part of a great farm system is the fact that you do indeed have chips available to use for trades. I also feel that position best facilitates moves when you get to the point of having depth at multiple positions and players of value who are blocked at the big league level. I'm hopeful that the team is moving in that direction, but other than what looks to be a possible log jam at MI I don't think they are quite there yet. I also don't think that totally precludes any deals from being made, but I think any team should be mindful of what they feel they can afford to move.

jbupstate · Jan 20, 2024

RedOctober3829 said:
Teoscar Hernandez and Jorge Soler could both step right into this lineup and rotate between DH and the OF. As far a starting pitcher, after Yamamoto there is Snell and Montgomery both would be perfect additions both for the short and long term. Soler and the 2 SP's are still out there for the taking, but is anybody seriously thinking they're going to pay what it takes to sign any of them? The resounding answer should be no.

What does this mean?

I am trying to understand where you’re coming from but that’s just not a reasonable statement. Soler is a long term answer? He’s a DH. Substitute Snell for last season’s big tickets in Rodon and DeGrom. Both the Yankees and Rangers would love a do over.

Montgomery is a guy that makes sense. But universal reports have him wanting the Rangers. The Sox would have to absolutely blow him away… He’s a good pitcher but doesn’t have the upside in ability or young.

chawson · Jan 20, 2024

RedOctober3829 said:
It would be a risk, but do you want to get better or not?

I do want the team to get better! But it’s not a fantasy team and I think there are factors to consider.

Snell’s walk rate is really rough, and screams regression. I think the home run suppression is great but it reminds me of the trade off that Barnes and Workman made (high K and BB, low XBH). Injury history. Whispers of character stuff. And again, as a stated West Coast guy, I could see questions about an investment in his wellbeing and productivity in Boston. And I think it matters that Price and Sale, two superior and younger pitchers signed for less money, were run out of town because their contracts were considered albatrosses.

Petagine in a Bottle · Jan 20, 2024

Seems like the Sox are really limiting themselves if they aren’t able to sign West Coast guys, guys from the Southeast, those with control issues, those who have been tendered qualifying offers, who may have character concerns (even whispers), represented by Scott Boras, over a certain age, and those who want more than two years. There aren’t a ton of great high character guys with fantastic control who come from the Northeast*

*Players who grew up in the Northeast, but as Yankee fans, are also excluded.

JCizzle · Jan 20, 2024

Petagine in a Bottle said:
Seems like the Sox are really limiting themselves if they aren’t able to sign West Coast guys, guys from the Southeast, those with control issues, those with injury histories, character concerns, represented by Scott Boras, over a certain age, and those who want more than two years. There aren’t a ton of great high character guys with fantastic control who come from the Northeast*

*Players who grew up in the Northeast, but as Yankee fans, are also excluded.

Doesn't Montgomery literally live in Boston? But now there's no reasonable amount of money that could sway him here instead of Texas?

Report: Red Sox target Jordan Montgomery is living in Boston

According to MassLive’s Chris Cotillo and Sean McAdam, Jordan Montgomery is living in Boston for the offseason and has recently been working out and throwing at Boston College.

I get that he's not a perfect pitcher, but if you're not willing to swim with the top-top end FA starters that will require $300-400M, then the rest of the options are probably going to be flawed.

8slim · Jan 20, 2024

Petagine in a Bottle said:
Seems like the Sox are really limiting themselves if they aren’t able to sign West Coast guys, guys from the Southeast, those with control issues, those with injury histories, character concerns, represented by Scott Boras, over a certain age, and those who want more than two years. There aren’t a ton of great high character guys with fantastic control who come from the Northeast*

*Players who grew up in the Northeast, but as Yankee fans, are also excluded.

HOLD ON….

…we’re totally cool with guys with injury histories. In fact they’re our favorite.

jon abbey · Jan 20, 2024

JCizzle said:
Doesn't Montgomery literally live in Boston? But now there's no reasonable amount of money that could sway him here instead of Texas?

Report: Red Sox target Jordan Montgomery is living in Boston

Her residency there ends soon and she goes to Nashville (?) next, from my memory of the last time we has this discussion.

Petagine in a Bottle · Jan 20, 2024

8slim said:
HOLD ON….

…we’re totally cool with guys with injury histories. In fact they’re our favorite.

Good point. I will remove that.

moondog80 · Jan 20, 2024

"Full throttle" gets all the attention. Buy you know what's a more damning quote? This, from Sam Kennedy last fall:

“We’re just not pitching. We don’t have the depth right now, and we saw it manifest itself the other night. When you’re really thin with your starting pitching, and you don’t have starters that you need to go deep, and you’ve got 15 games in a row against the class of baseball, it just was not a good recipe.

We’ve got to be active in the free agent market as we go forward in the next five years. Because pitching and defense wins championships. We all know that. And so that’s got to be a big focus as we go forward "

Has replacing Chris Sale with Lucas Giolito adequately addressed starting pitching depth?

phineas gage · Jan 20, 2024

It is probably wildly irrational and in the moment, but I really dislike Sam Kennedy. If this oily character gets his walking papers this season, it will be at least one good outcome.

Of course, someone just as odious will no doubt replace him.

Auger34 · Jan 20, 2024

NickEsasky said:
Agreed. But can we keep up this same energy as a board when people are throwing out QAnon and payroll truther insults?

exactly!

You and I have been upfront in saying that we believed the reporting and ownership wasn’t going to spend. I am comfortable in saying that if they did spend, we would both admit we were wrong.
I would expect the same thing from other posters on the other side of the debate, especially when they were acting like they were the only honest seekers of truth while people who believed the media were complete morons

HfxBob · Jan 20, 2024

moondog80 said:
"Full throttle" gets all the attention. Buy you know what's a more damning quote? This, from Sam Kennedy last fall:

Has replacing Chris Sale with Lucas Giolito adequately addressed starting pitching depth?

Sam sort of "answered" this last night:

"We were engaged with some long-term, high-profile free-agent discussions that we didn’t match up on."

They tried their darndest, but things just didn't fall their way, so they'll take another shot at it next year.

soxin6 · Jan 20, 2024

moondog80 said:
"Full throttle" gets all the attention. Buy you know what's a more damning quote? This, from Sam Kennedy last fall:

Has replacing Chris Sale with Lucas Giolito adequately addressed starting pitching depth?

Of course not.

JCizzle · Jan 20, 2024

HfxBob said:
Sam sort of "answered" this last night:

"We were engaged with some long-term, high-profile free-agent discussions that we didn’t match up on."

They tried their darndest, but things just didn't fall their way, so they'll take another shot at it next year.

Abraham clarified that "match up" meant "financially" rather than location or other factors that have been discussed.

8slim · Jan 20, 2024

The more times I see that “experience… and student tickets are affordable” quote the more I want to launch Kennedy into sun.

What an ass.

Auger34 · Jan 20, 2024

jbupstate said:
What does this mean?

I am trying to understand where you’re coming from but that’s just not a reasonable statement. Soler is a long term answer? He’s a DH. Substitute Snell for last season’s big tickets in Rodon and DeGrom. Both the Yankees and Rangers would love a do over.

Montgomery is a guy that makes sense. But universal reports have him wanting the Rangers. The Sox would have to absolutely blow him away… He’s a good pitcher but doesn’t have the upside in ability or young.

It means that there are 2 starting pitchers, Snell and Montgomery, who are free agents that can be signed for just money (or out there for the taking).

I am struggling to figure out what else it could mean

Auger34 · Jan 20, 2024

8slim said:
The more times I see that “experience… and student tickets are affordable” quote the more I want to launch Kennedy into sun.

What an ass.

I think that was Tom Werner, who has managed to make a complete ass out of himself every time he’s opened his mouth

CR67dream · Jan 20, 2024

HfxBob said:
Sam sort of "answered" this last night:

"We were engaged with some long-term, high-profile free-agent discussions that we didn’t match up on."

They tried their darndest, but things just didn't fall their way, so they'll take another shot at it next year.

The comments from earlier aren't really damning for me, because that is the closest thing to the truth he's said throughout. It almost gives me hope that he's actually not a complete idiot. It seems he still believes that, because the whys aside, they have not matched up with anyone, from the top of the pile, and it sure seems that he's now acknowledging that this means that they won't have the pitching to get to the next level as things stand. Hence all the bullshit from last night about "fan experience". Makes me ill.

I'm just not sure the fact that he opined on "what it takes to win championships" earlier is damning, as he's basically admitting they obviously haven't delivered on what it would take. It would be quite nice if they'd just come right out and say that, though.

I wonder how different the poll I started would have been if I used the words "Red Sox Messaging" instead of PR, because the PR department has nothing to do with the massive and overwhelming level of mind-boggling incompetence at the top.

astrozombie · Jan 20, 2024

Auger34 said:
I think that was Tom Werner, who has managed to make a complete ass out of himself every time he’s opened his mouth

I will say this for FSG: at least they are being honest now, at least with themselves. Werner probably truly believes that they'll sell tickets to students (probably true) and - as with the debate over the term "competitive" with regards to the YY situation - the Fenway "experience" is something that will draw some fans in. Tourists. Parents taking kids too young to care about Bello's xFIP in day/night splits and just want to see someone hit a HR. Luxury boxes, especially when salespeople are taking clients out. Etc. Why he would say any of that out loud I have no idea, but I can at least appreciate that they are being upfront (even if what they are saying is pretty disappointing) rather than just shoveling what they were before. It at least lets fans set their own expectations, whether that's watching the kids develop, a Cinderella run, pass on this year, whatever.

ehaz · Jan 20, 2024

chawson said:
And a .680 OPS career mark as a starter is extremely good. It's better than Jordan Montgomery put up last year, for example. Seth Lugo had an excellent year in 2023 and his OPS against was .708.

As you well know, that .680 OPS career mark is extremely misleading because it’s actually .570 OPS against the first time around and .850+ the second and third times around. Not to mention that it’s gotten worse every year he’s been a starter.

Also signing a Lugo or an Imanaga or whomever still does nothing to prevent the Red Sox from stretching out Houck (and Whitlock) as starters to allow different leadership/coaches make their own assessments after working with them. There is no combination of five starters on any team in Major League Baseball that is going to take the ball to start the game 162 times in a season. Even in the rosiest of outcomes they can easily pencil Houck/Whitlock in for a dozen starts each.

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