2023-24 Celtics

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,577
around the way
Wrt losing a few close games to good teams: you can lose 43% of your playoff games to good teams and still win the Finals. (The 2008 Celtics lost 39% of their playoff games.)

NBA basketball has significant variance, and the sport is set up to let some of that even out on the biggest stage. The Celtics are well set up for exactly that environment.
This is well said. Last night's game was completely one-sided. But even with the Celtics being able to score at will, Miami was able to keep things close for a while on the backs of a bunch of tough, contested makes. That shit is going to happen sometimes. You do everything right, your opponent is inferior, yet ball luck wins out.

And some nights are just not your night, effort/intensity/whatever.

But watching the Cs run through their offense and defense is a joy, even when some guys are out here and there. They have a plan A, plan B, and plan C. Zone isn't sinking them. Bad reffing, nope? They seem to know that they're the better team pretty much every night. They're trusting the process, making their reads, etc. Everyone is bought in.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,577
around the way
And love that Miami added another guy who doesn't play defense. As noted above, you can only hide so many of those guys. Robinson, Rozier, and Herro were like SoSH members on D last night.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
12,320
And love that Miami added another guy who doesn't play defense. As noted above, you can only hide so many of those guys. Robinson, Rozier, and Herro were like SoSH members on D last night.
The only way to really hide those guys is zone, and these are not last year's Celtics (with TL/Smart getting a lot of minutes).
 

Euclis20

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2004
8,287
Imaginationland
He can defend guards better than them, but he is physically outmatched against Tatum/Brown/Jrue.
He's bigger, faster and younger than Lowry so maybe people are assuming that he's better defensively, but it's just not the case. He's on a completely different level as Lowry offensively, but this is a slight step back for them defensively, even considering Lowry's age. An improvement overall to be sure, but there will be moments when they miss having a smart, bulldog of a defender like Lowry at the guard spot next to the very mediocre Herro.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
22,304
Pittsburgh, PA
Joe had his issues last year, but not enough people will remember that he coached his ass off in games 4-6 against Miami to force that game 7. For all the arguments here about not trying stuff, the team really did do a lot of different things defensively, and had the Heat very much on the ropes until the Tatum thing happened.
If you recall, would you mind detailing some of what Joe did to coach his ass off on the back half of that series? I basically avoided all basketball content for months starting the minute the final whistle sounded.
 

TomRicardo

rusty cohlebone
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 6, 2006
20,713
Row 14
He's bigger, faster and younger than Lowry so maybe people are assuming that he's better defensively, but it's just not the case. He's on a completely different level as Lowry offensively, but this is a slight step back for them defensively, even considering Lowry's age. An improvement overall to be sure, but there will be moments when they miss having a smart, bulldog of a defender like Lowry at the guard spot next to the very mediocre Herro.
Lowry is really good at staying in front of people and aggravating the hell out of them. He is also really good at getting away with grabbing and holding off ball. He just impedes the flow of the offense. He also has active hands and can knock the ball away. He also uses his fouls really well.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,577
around the way
Is Rozier really on the Herro/Robinson level of lack of defense?
I think so. His BPM and DRTG are atrocious. DARKO isn't functioning on my android, but I'd imagine it says something similar.

Hard to unpack and do a proper comparison since Terry on Charlotte was surrounded by bad defense and the Miami guys weren't/aren't.

To the eyeball test, I'd say he's as bad as Herro but not quite as bad as Robinson.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,577
around the way
Lowry is really good at staying in front of people and aggravating the hell out of them. He is also really good at getting away with grabbing and holding off ball. He just impedes the flow of the offense. He also has active hands and can knock the ball away. He also uses his fouls really well.
Yeah I don't think that a comp to Lowry is fair to Rozier. Lowry had old man brains and savvy, used his anticipation on and off ball, and worked the officials perfectly. And he cares. He's a hell of a guess defender and had some girth to absorb contact and maintain his line. Terry has none of that, especially the effort.

Terry does have length and could be disruptive off ball and with some on ball steals and pressure. He did so early in his career here. He could be less bad if he could be bothered. Maybe Spo elevates him some by playoff time, but he'll never be in Lowry's league.
 

slamminsammya

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
9,446
San Francisco
i remember Terry being a good defender here. I'd guess any numbers showing him as terrible are just showing dysfunction in Charlotte. but maybe he's taken a big step back.
 

TomRicardo

rusty cohlebone
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 6, 2006
20,713
Row 14
i remember Terry being a good defender here. I'd guess any numbers showing him as terrible are just showing dysfunction in Charlotte. but maybe he's taken a big step back.
He is limited as he is only 6'1", It helps being on the court with Marcus and Jaylen to pick up better and bigger guards. Miami's backcourt is about hiding Herro. They might have the worst backcourt defensive players in the NBA but they do a terrific job of hiding it through scheme, Bam and Jimmy. They are actually worse than they were last year. I am little surprised they went for Terry over throwing everything they could at a Caruso.

Terry is a better player than Lowry but I think the Heat have a massive uphill battle to repeat last year especially in a conference with Brunson, Maxey, White, Dame, and the litany of guards that move and space the floor. Without Lowry disrupting those guys, there is a huge amount of responsibility for Bam and Jimmy to collapse on guys in the zone.
 

bigq

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
11,231
Yeah I don't think that a comp to Lowry is fair to Rozier. Lowry had old man brains and savvy, used his anticipation on and off ball, and worked the officials perfectly. And he cares. He's a hell of a guess defender and had some girth to absorb contact and maintain his line. Terry has none of that, especially the effort.

Terry does have length and could be disruptive off ball and with some on ball steals and pressure. He did so early in his career here. He could be less bad if he could be bothered. Maybe Spo elevates him some by playoff time, but he'll never be in Lowry's league.
77234
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,577
around the way
i remember Terry being a good defender here. I'd guess any numbers showing him as terrible are just showing dysfunction in Charlotte. but maybe he's taken a big step back.
He was for the first couple of years because otherwise he wouldn't have seen the court. Once he became a credible offensive player, he traded in his defensive chops for a cool nickname and a nice contract shortly thereafter. His defensive decline started long before Charlotte. It always pissed me off.
 

greek_gawd_of_walks

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 14, 2009
9,185
Wiscansin, by way of Attleboro
View attachment 77242

these numbers against over 500 teams are kinda wild. both how good the Celtics are but also peep the Knicks. yikes!
By my count, the Knicks are 3-3 against the +.500 teams since Anunoby entered the fold. The +/- is +58 in those six games. Heavily skewed by thrashings of the Sixers and Nuggets (and a nice win vs Minny), but they're definitely heading in a good direction.
 

NomarsFool

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 21, 2001
8,286
Interesting how the top 5 teams are really getting the job done against the sub .500 teams. Not many missed opportunities for wins, for the most part
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,427
Santa Monica

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
12,320
My tea leaves say KP will be held out until Tuesday with Horford going Monday, as they continue to split B2Bs

Everyone is aligned here.
KP doesn't give a damn about Awards Season (65 games) & the team just wants him to be pristine for the playoffs.
Yeah, they seem pretty likely to do the center platoon on B2Bs the rest of the season. Kornet's playing well makes it even easier.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,577
around the way
Yeah, they seem pretty likely to do the center platoon on B2Bs the rest of the season. Kornet's playing well makes it even easier.
Yeah they can get away with playing small occasionally too, since 2-5 are all long guys. Horford, Tatum, Brown, White, Jrue isn't tall anywhere but isn't short anywhere either really. Plenty of off ball defense and rebounding.

Winning 58 games healthy is way better than winning 63 games at a cost. Everyone seems to get that, and nobody is playing for a contract (which helps a lot).
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,427
Santa Monica
If scab Deadspin wasn’t bad enough, they propose we trade Jrue and Joe Mazz to the Bucks for Dame and Doc because … reasons?

View: https://twitter.com/deadspin/status/1750891367596016025?s=46&t=4DK5sD-8gsSKFExcsnEJqg
Rivers is revered in Boston. Maybe not as much as Bill Belichick, but on par with Terry Francona. He’s responsible for the Boston Celtics franchise’s most recent championship, and in December, called his stint in Boston the best period of his life in sports, before he was honored at TD Garden.



No F-ing way
Doc has his PR people working OT this year
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,577
around the way
My god. Ainge assembled a fantastic team and Doc guided them to one title while they were in their primes. I'm glad for the banner but hardly revere Doc.
 

Saints Rest

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member

MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 26, 2006
14,319
Coaching reverence ratings:
  1. Belichick
  2. Francona
  3. Cora
  4. Julien
  5. Rivers
  6. Farrell
I think you’re missing a couple dudes relevant to this forum. Or maybe it’s sarcasm? Sorry.

John Farrell can kiss my butt. There’s a reason he’s catching lobster now.

And do people revere Cora? I’d take Doc over him any day, and I don’t like Doc much. Heck, I’d take Joe Morgan over him.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,427
Santa Monica
My god. Ainge assembled a fantastic team and Doc guided them to one title while they were in their primes. I'm glad for the banner but hardly revere Doc.
spot on

there's a picture of Doc next to the word "opportunist" in the dictionary (with his kid underneath him)

Doc seems nice enough but his coaching luster has been fading for years
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

posts way less than 18% useful shit
SoSH Member
Nov 17, 2010
14,488
spot on

there's a picture of Doc next to the word "opportunist" in the dictionary (with his kid underneath him)

Doc seems nice enough but his coaching luster has been fading for years
Dude started "advising" Adrian Griffin a month before he got canned in Milwaukee. Management started showing up to Bucks practices around the same time to oversee practices.

Shocking coincidence, I say.
 

Saints Rest

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
I think you’re missing a couple dudes relevant to this forum. Or maybe it’s sarcasm? Sorry.

John Farrell can kiss my butt. There’s a reason he’s catching lobster now.

And do people revere Cora? I’d take Doc over him any day, and I don’t like Doc much. Heck, I’d take Joe Morgan over him.
I was just using recent (21st century) and no longer coaching for comparison.
 

m0ckduck

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
1,783
Coaching reverence ratings:
  1. Belichick
  2. Francona
  3. Cora
  4. Julien
  5. Rivers
  6. Farrell
Are the 1980s Celtics the lone NBA dynasty that doesn't have an iconic coach?
2015 - present Warriors = Kerr
1999 - 2014 Spurs = Pop
2006-2013 Heat = Spo
00s Lakers = Jackson
90s Bulls = Jackson
80s Lakers = Riley
60s Celtics = Red

KC Jones and Bill Fitch feel... seldom mentioned, in contrast to these guys. I know the reasons (Bird and the veterans effectively coached the team from 1983 onwards) but it's odd looking at the list above that there isn't a Celtics coach there.

Also: Brad Stevens as coach should be on this list at 5, above Rivers and Farrell.

Edit: yes, it ended badly for him, but: (1) won 38 playoff games (2) took a team built around IT4 to the ECF, (3) being undermined by Kyrie almost speaks well of him in retrospect.
 
Last edited:

bankshot1

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 12, 2003
24,831
where I was last at
Are the 1980s Celtics the lone NBA dynasty that doesn't have an iconic coach?
2015 - present Warriors = Kerr
1999 - 2014 Spurs = Pop
2006-2013 Heat = Spo
00s Lakers = Jackson
90s Bulls = Jackson
80s Lakers = Riley
60s Celtics = Red

KC Jones and Bill Fitch feel... seldom mentioned, in contrast to these guys. I know the reasons (Bird and the veterans effectively coached the team from 1983 onwards) but it's odd looking at the list above that there isn't a Celtics coach there.

Also: Brad Stevens as coach should be on this list at 5, above Rivers and Farrell.
If you're calling Spo a coach of a dynasty in Miami, (I'm not there, but I've the utmost respect for Spo, he may be the best NBA coach today) then I think Tommy Heinsohn as coach of the Celts with 2 rings and should have had 3, deserves consideration on that list.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
12,320
I thought that was the first time they looked like last year's team. They came out and played good defense through the bad shooting (from inside and outside--missed a ton of layups), and then after awhile they let it get to them. Transition baskets, offensive rebounds, worse offensive approach.
 

Imbricus

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 26, 2017
4,879
I watched the first half. I didn't get the game thread comments that the Clippers were playing great defense. I thought their defense was maybe a bit above average, but we've certainly faced much stouter defenses (Minnesota, for one). The Celtics just couldn't throw the ball in the damn ocean, and Jayson was back to trotting up court, and Jaylen looked a bit flat ...

Though I will say, Tatum going aggressively to the hoop gave me some hope, and I think they should've tried to work some better shots, when the threes weren't falling. But the truth of last night was nothing was falling -- Kornet blew a shot two feet in front of the basket. Ironically, at the end of the game, the Clippers and Celts had identical poor shooting percentages from three on the same number of shots: 25%, on 10 for 40. So the bad outside shooting was only part of the story.
 

lars10

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
11,889
I watched the first half. I didn't get the game thread comments that the Clippers were playing great defense. I thought their defense was maybe a bit above average, but we've certainly faced much stouter defenses (Minnesota, for one). The Celtics just couldn't throw the ball in the damn ocean, and Jayson was back to trotting up court, and Jaylen looked a bit flat ...

Though I will say, Tatum going aggressively to the hoop gave me some hope, and I think they should've tried to work some better shots, when the threes weren't falling. But the truth of last night was nothing was falling -- Kornet blew a shot two feet in front of the basket. Ironically, at the end of the game, the Clippers and Celts had identical poor shooting percentages from three on the same number of shots: 25%, on 10 for 40. So the bad outside shooting was only part of the story.
Yeah.. to me they did try to shoot a lot of non threes.. just none of them went in.
 

MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 26, 2006
14,319
Yeah.. to me they did try to shoot a lot of non threes.. just none of them went in.
I thought it was weird that the very first two shots of the game were the kind of mid-range shots they try to avoid usually. And they clanked them both. It seemed a little bit like they had a game plan they felt really good about, then it totally didn’t work when they started 0-10 from 3, then they just totally fell apart in the 3rd when their adjustments at halftime … really didn’t work.

I’d like to watch someone like Nekias break down that quarter because no one has been able to shut down the Cs like that stretch where they just looked hapless. Not sure if it was just great individual efforts or something Lue cooked up or lazy offense or what, but I’ve missed like one game all year and I’ve never seen THAT.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,419
I thought it was weird that the very first two shots of the game were the kind of mid-range shots they try to avoid usually. And they clanked them both. It seemed a little bit like they had a game plan they felt really good about, then it totally didn’t work when they started 0-10 from 3, then they just totally fell apart in the 3rd when their adjustments at halftime … really didn’t work.

I’d like to watch someone like Nekias break down that quarter because no one has been able to shut down the Cs like that stretch where they just looked hapless. Not sure if it was just great individual efforts or something Lue cooked up or lazy offense or what, but I’ve missed like one game all year and I’ve never seen THAT.
Celtics were flat for sure, which sometimes happens when you return home from a trip, but no shame being that the Clippers have been the best team in basketball since a week after the Harden trade.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
30,861
I watched the first half. I didn't get the game thread comments that the Clippers were playing great defense. I thought their defense was maybe a bit above average, but we've certainly faced much stouter defenses (Minnesota, for one). The Celtics just couldn't throw the ball in the damn ocean, and Jayson was back to trotting up court, and Jaylen looked a bit flat ...
To me the key was LAC could defend everyone but JT one-on-one and then they tried to load up on JT when he had the ball. JMazz said that LAC's active hands messed up the Cs timing but I thought it was more that LAC mostly kept guys in front of them (other than JT).

I agree that JB looked flat for some reason.

JMazz also said that bad offense really affected their defense - he mentioned 20 first-half points on transition and leak-outs, which seems high versus my memory but there were a lot of instances where bad offense by BOS lead to easy buckets by LAC.
 

lars10

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
11,889
I thought it was weird that the very first two shots of the game were the kind of mid-range shots they try to avoid usually. And they clanked them both. It seemed a little bit like they had a game plan they felt really good about, then it totally didn’t work when they started 0-10 from 3, then they just totally fell apart in the 3rd when their adjustments at halftime … really didn’t work.

I’d like to watch someone like Nekias break down that quarter because no one has been able to shut down the Cs like that stretch where they just looked hapless. Not sure if it was just great individual efforts or something Lue cooked up or lazy offense or what, but I’ve missed like one game all year and I’ve never seen THAT.
I haven't watched too closely.. but I think it was a combo of:
Clippers playing D (credit to them)
Celtics missing wide open shots all night
Clippers not getting called for almost any fouls on drives

I haven't looked too closely at other games.. but the Clippers do a ton of hand checking... they had hands on hips or arms barring the way to the basket all night. Kawhi especially got away with a lot of hand checking on Tatum. George used it a lot too. Perhaps that happens every game, but it happened on almost every drive last night.

Also.. Drue and White were uncharacteristically off all game... beyond Horford and Brown not being able to shoot at all.

The other thing to look at.. the Celts blew out the Clippers last time they played..so the Clips were probably up for this game.
 

TripleOT

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 4, 2007
7,784
So Boston played five top teams this month. They lost in OKC after a late comeback failed. The Thunder led for the last 40 minutes in that one. They barely beat the Wolves at home, in a thrilling OT game, with Minny on a B2B. They got eviscerated in Milwaukee when on a B2B, and were non competitive from the jump. The Celts then drop a home one possession type game to the Nuggets, who were on a B2B. Now they get destroyed by a B2B Clippers game in Boston when again they were not competitive, two days after one of their best efforts in a blowout win in Miami.

Is this the typical thing top teams go through, or an indicator that this team isn’t where it needs to be?

.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
48,793
So Boston played five top teams this month. They lost in OKC after a late comeback failed. The Thunder led for the last 40 minutes in that one. They barely beat the Wolves at home, in a thrilling OT game, with Minny on a B2B. They got eviscerated in Milwaukee when on a B2B, and were non competitive from the jump. The Celts then drop a home one possession type game to the Nuggets, who were on a B2B. Now they get destroyed by a B2B Clippers game in Boston when again they were not competitive, two days after one of their best efforts in a blowout win in Miami.

Is this the typical thing top teams go through, or an indicator that this team isn’t where it needs to be?

.
There's this (I know who played and sat this game). I am choosing to go with variance but people can go with whatever works for them.
77319
 

Attachments

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,427
Santa Monica
So Boston played five top teams this month. They lost in OKC after a late comeback failed. The Thunder led for the last 40 minutes in that one. They barely beat the Wolves at home, in a thrilling OT game, with Minny on a B2B. They got eviscerated in Milwaukee when on a B2B, and were non competitive from the jump. The Celts then drop a home one possession type game to the Nuggets, who were on a B2B. Now they get destroyed by a B2B Clippers game in Boston when again they were not competitive, two days after one of their best efforts in a blowout win in Miami.

Is this the typical thing top teams go through, or an indicator that this team isn’t where it needs to be?
As far as yesterday, 4 starters shot poorly, that's not a problem for a Quarter, but it lasted for the first 3 Quarters

In general, working through KP at the nail or below is the antidote to these rock fight/half-court games since it will lead to a high% shot from him or a teammate if he gets doubled.
 

lars10

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
11,889
How did LA teach Theis not to foul or at least not get called every two minutes?
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,419
How did LA teach Theis not to foul or at least not get called every two minutes?
He’s what 31/32 now? When Theis was in Boston he was a first and second year player. Experience in understanding how to defend seems like the logical answer.