yeah.. the rules changing mid season hugely benefited the Heat.
edit: it's not normal playoff basketball.. it's an entirely new variant of basketball that is more like rugby.
Celtics vs Da Culture - Round 1 (FIGHT!)
- Thread starter Ed Hillel
- Start date
edit: it's not normal playoff basketball.. it's an entirely new variant of basketball that is more like rugby.
Sorry perhaps I am annoyed a lot and touchy, but losing game 2 at home and playing poorly is a concern. If they had lost game 3 in Miami a post like this would be justified. They just lost at home to depleted team that won the second play in game. It sucks.
If both teams get there, it will be nice to have a little less pressure on the Cs considering 90% of the world will expect Denver to handle them in 5 or less.
100%. This was an important game for their psyche and they failed the test pretty badly.
The last team a team had this good of a point differential they went 16-1 in the playoffs, right? So yes, a lofty standard was somewhat reasonable to assume.
They got him (and others) looks two ways in game one. Lots of misdirection screening on the perimeter which didn't work as well tonight with the switching m2m Miami went to. And, offensive rebounds pass-outs which there weren't as many bc Miami went smartly away from the zone.
Yep. So much talk about how things are different this year and "we're not messing around" and it took all of two games for them to shit themselves on their home floor against a mediocre opponent. I feel like I shouldn't be surprised but I am genuinely surprised. If they win the next 3 I'll feel better about calling this an aberration and naively thinking they got it out of their system, but it's a red flag and I am so bummed out about it.
At 6:43 in the 4th (I think) was the best play the Cs had in the second half. Tatum got downhill and was looking to kick out instead of taking a contested 7-footer (rare tonight). Duncan was slightly too far off White in pinching. This is the play. Don't try to take Duncan or Herro. Take it against the others and kick out to who Duncan and Herro are guarding on the perimeter. They are too slow and late to contest.
Also, there was an ATO to JB midway through the 4th where they got him to blast cut on the move so he caught it almost at full speed downhill and was able to finish easily against no help bc the rest of the team was above the foul line. More of this, too.
My takeaway is that KOC really turned out to be lame. What a disappointment.
One loss and people here want to trade the core and replace Mazzulla - that's a playoff day ending in Y. But a supposed expert?
That tweet needs to be in the championship video if they beat Denver in the Finals.
One loss and people here want to trade the core and replace Mazzulla - that's a playoff day ending in Y. But a supposed expert?
That tweet needs to be in the championship video if they beat Denver in the Finals.
I don't think it's a "deer in the headlights" look; to me, it's a "I'm going to put my head down and take over this game". They are such individual talents they don't think anyone on MIA can guard them and when things get tough, they are going to go win it.
However, the truth is that the Cs generally win games on the defensive end, not the offensive end.
I was j7st trying to make the point that the LAL game started the same way where LAL made a ton of threes (exvept they had a big lead). But LAL coyldn't sustain it and MIA did. But maybe not a great point. In the immortal words of Danny Kirwin, "Oh well".
I don't think this is accurate. There were a few wild gamethread takes, but for the most part I think everyone here is understandably and reasonably frustrated without going to extremes.
KOC has been relatively consistent in this regard - I believe after the 2nd Denver loss he said there was no way Boston could win. Saying they would get swept absent a lucky shooting night is obviously hysterics, but it's only a slight variation on his usual Celtic commentary.
I knew this was coming at some point, obviously not happy that it happened now. Two consistent playoff themes with this iteration of the Celtics: They often let their guard down against teams with inferior talent, and they nearly always get up off the mat. I'm not worried at all yet, as I expect them to win the next three games.
I don't agree with you but my larger point is that a gamethread take here is one thing. A hoops pundit who earned his career on the back of actual analysis is something else. IOW, why pay for KOC content when I can get much spicier takes than that in the game threads.
In any event, the Cs need to solve Bam or this series might extend. And also find a way to not leave the perimeter in the process.
Oh yeah, I completely agree with that. That was an off the wall take from KOC. I think I just misunderstood your point.
Seems more like it was an important game for the fanbase’s psyche. It’s the playoffs, get a helmet because there are going to be bumps in the ride. There’s plenty to be concerned about, but them being psyched out because, “oh no, it’s the Heat” is not one of them.
Whether they want to admit it or not, I think the Heat have owned the Jays’ psyche since the Bam block on Tatum. Even in 2022 when they won, they nearly massive gagged a lead down the stretch and thankfully Jimmy missed. And then Caleb Martin happened last year. And now we had a similar situation this year.
It’s one of those things in sports where if the Celtics can avoid a disaster against the Heat, I could see them rolling through the next couple of rounds. They lose their swagger so quickly in the playoffs for some unknown reason.
Firmly disagree but that’s fine. I think this stuff matters in sports and getting over a mental block or opponent that has flummoxed you extends beyond the fans.
If the Celtics lose this series, it would be one of the greatest choke jobs ever in NBA history and the Jays will be labeled as chokers by the media. In this day and age of pervasive media, I don’t discount this.
Obviously, it meant a ton to the fans as well.
Can you find one post where anyone said that the Heat will beat the Celtics? Just one.
I wonder how much of what feels like way over the top reaction is a function of the proliferation of sports betting. As well as the proliferation of people who feel like they can predict outcomes. It sucks to be wrong but it really sucks when it costs money.
I don't understand this post. Maybe you are confused. I never suggested anything like that.
You responded “I don’t agree with you” when @Light-Tower-Power said that people in the game thread were understandably frustrated with the Celtics losing this game. I assumed that meant you thought that posters thought the Heat would win?
If I am wrong, what did you mean?
Where are you taking this?
I was posting about KOC. I don't know what any of this has to do with specific posts or posters - I didn't reference anything like that at all.
You said that one playoff loss and people want to replace the core and Mazzulla. You literally typed that. Who said anything close to that?
I said those words and I stand by them. This seems like a waste of time but more importantly it has nothing to do with the series. Take it to PM if you want to continue.
You're referring to the game thread I think? There were folks in the game thread suggesting this. But, your larger point I believe was you expect that kind of take in a game thread from passionate diehard Cs fans but not from someone who has tried to build his career as an expert without ridiculous hot takes but now is doing so.
Precisely, thank you.
Back to the series, do we get Tillman run in game three? If his knee is up for it he can handle switches. Thus far KP is not capable of staying with Bam and nobody else is doing much better.
Why not let Bam cook and stick to everyone else? He's not a great passer. Is he a great driver? I play him straight up and if he scores 24 on like 12-20 from two, good for him.The perimeter guys can't just blow by the Celtics assuming the Cs are locked in and the Heat need to be turned into two-point shooters or at least have their threes contested or moved off their spots. You can't treat Bam like he's an elite center or a great playmaker. The only way the Heat can win is shoot an abundance of threes, many uncontested and make the Celtics play offense one-on-one in the HC where if they make it, it's a two, and if they miss, it will be a reasonably assessed rebound opportunity for the defense. It has to be both, btw. You can't have just the offense without the defense. Many, here, want to argue it's one or the other. Anyway, that's the endgame. And, Spo spends every waking moment thinking about how to get his team to those two goals. If I'm Joe, I want Heat taking two point attempts with rebounding opportunities that lead to transition offense for us and threes for us on offense off ball movement. One key is Joe has to figure out how to address the nail on offense. He needs the ball there even against their m2m and the strategy did not work tonight until they put Tatum there.
If you want a defender for Bam, it's a wing. Take your pick. They'll all have success against him (look at who gave KP fits tonight, several smaller Heat players). The question is what to do with KP or AL. This is where IDK enough about the personnel of the NBA. I saw KP block a three tonight. Can he guard another besides Bam? Probably not but I Don't watch the NBA as much as you all do until the playoffs. What strikes me watching the Heat is how they're not great drivers and finishers . Jesus, that UCLA guy, could you make him go left where he seems to struggle a lot? Do the Celtics go small at some point if needed? Man, they would thrive defensively against this team. How would that work out on offense? It'd probably struggle. I'd have to think more about it.
I’ve only watched about 20 Celtics games this year and where I saw them struggle was giving up open threes bc they’re too concerned about the drive. When they lock in and force you to drive against their great defensive on ball perimeter defenders the other team is helpless bc they can recover on the drive well and also help with backside rotation. Tonight, there were three Celtics defenders at times guarding two Heat players in pnr action! Who cares? How does that happen? Poor communication and unfocused concentration I hope. You can also just see it on their closeouts to guys like Martin and Jovic and Highsmith, they approach them slowly with hands in pockets anticipating the drive and kick game of Miami but Miami was all too eager to take advantage of these soft closeouts and let it fly.
You will never convince people of this argument. Basketball still has such a strong contingent of “eye test” people who refuse to be swayed otherwise despite the advance metrics proving so much on the data side. For some reason at both the college and pro level it seems 3 point percentage variance is a particular blind spot. The Cs need to avoid last year by not letting this loss beat them twice.
The wild thing about the KOC comment is that I think the reason Denver has the advantage against the Cs is not based on what we saw in this last game it’s that Denver seems to be at its best at the end of games and closing them out and that seems to be where Cs can struggle (and did so against Denver twice this year).
This is what stood out to me, too, from the highlights (didn't get to watch live as it aired in middle of the night here). It felt like they spent the last few days watching video of the 4Q stretch in G1 where Miami got easy layups and over-corrected to that. Or maybe the coaching staff simply told them, "These guys can't beat us from three— take away the close looks at the basket" and didn't adjust. In any case, they were WAY too concerned with sagging off and protecting the hoop. Just play everything straight up, aggressively, switch on screens, and what's the worst that can happen? I really didn't understand it.
Last edited:
The thing is, shooting 46.3% from two and 37.5% from three as a team with 13 turnovers should be enough. It's playoff basketball. 101 points wins most of the postseason games played so far this year. As you say, part of the problem is taking only 32 threes at that clip leaves you 10-11 threes short of what Miami got last night and what Boston got in G1. But what really jumps out is, I didn't expect Miami to break 110 points for the series, let alone in G2. As bad as the optics looked on offense, what killed us was a combination of unaccountably cautious / nonchalant perimeter defense and opponent shooting variance.
Last edited:
This is where I'm at. The dirty secret of the past few postseasons (including Udoka's last year) has been the C's coaching staff giving away a game here, a game there. I'm watching Nuggets-Lakers hoping LA can take a game or two so we can face a slightly more rundown Denver team in the Finals... and then this happens? GTFO.
Do we give Spo enough credit that he basically baited us into taking too many 2s and not enough 3s? That said, if they shoot 40% from 3 they likely lose.
I also share in your disappointment and bewilderment. I did not watch the game - Bruins felt more important - but the phrase that comes to mind for me is front runners. They play the right way when shots are falling and they have the lead. But when things start to go sideways or backwards, they revert to old / bad habits. And it is so so depressing to have this happen in game 2 against the 8 seed down their best player, shooting variance or no shooting variance. Please let this just become a silly footnote like going to seven games in rounds 1-2 was for the 2008 champs. But sitting here today, my only reasonable reaction is that it won’t end up being a footnote, it will become the defining characteristic / monkey on the back for the Jays, Jrue, KP, and CJM. UGH.
Yes. Spo is a smart coach who makes great in-series and in-game adjustments. If the Cs had one of those they’d probably not only be up 2-0 they’d also be the defending champions.
Game 1 Celtics: 27 assists on 39 makes. Tatum and Brown took 30 of the Celtics' 82 shots (37%), shooting 13 of 30 overall and 4 of 13 from three. Porzingis, White, and Holiday took 31 shots, hitting 15 (10 of 20 from three). The bench guys took 21 shots, hitting 11 (8 of 16 from three).
Game 2 Celtics: 21 assists on 37 makes. Tatum and Brown took 43 of the Celtics' 80 shots (54%), shooting 23 of 43 overall and 6 of 15 from three. Porzingis, White, and Holiday took 29 shots, hitting 10 (3 of 12 from three). The bench guys took 8 shots, hitting 4 (3 of 5 from three). Pritchard did not have an attempt.
I think if you are playing the Celtics, you want Tatum and Brown to take it on themselves to do the scoring. And given the right incentives, they are ready, willing, and eager to oblige. They are, first and foremost, slow-it-down isolation players, and that is what they default to under duress.
Game 2 Celtics: 21 assists on 37 makes. Tatum and Brown took 43 of the Celtics' 80 shots (54%), shooting 23 of 43 overall and 6 of 15 from three. Porzingis, White, and Holiday took 29 shots, hitting 10 (3 of 12 from three). The bench guys took 8 shots, hitting 4 (3 of 5 from three). Pritchard did not have an attempt.
I think if you are playing the Celtics, you want Tatum and Brown to take it on themselves to do the scoring. And given the right incentives, they are ready, willing, and eager to oblige. They are, first and foremost, slow-it-down isolation players, and that is what they default to under duress.
It's natural for fans to be unhappy in a game thread especially when the opponent shoots +50% from 3.
There isn't any hardcore Fire Joe! or trade Jaylen, Jayson, or core now! theme going on in the Cellar or the game thread, which is what @Auger34 was pushing back on.
Further, I don't get the point of lecturing about posters' reactions during a playoff loss...other than it's just fertile troll territory.
The Heat/Spoelstra made a nice adjustment for G2.
Took a page from Mazzulla-ball drive, draw 2 defenders, & kick out for the open 3.
The C's just need to slightly adjust their defense. Al/KP can split the Center minutes and guard Bam straight up.
The rest of C's need to stunt and recover better and guard the line.
Took a page from Mazzulla-ball drive, draw 2 defenders, & kick out for the open 3.
The C's just need to slightly adjust their defense. Al/KP can split the Center minutes and guard Bam straight up.
The rest of C's need to stunt and recover better and guard the line.
Is the 2 big lineup ineffective against the Heat?
The Celtics have had at least one of KP and Horford on the floor throughout both games, and not played a third center.
Game 2:
KP alone: -18 in 25 minutes
Al alone: +22 in 18 minutes
One big lineups: +4 in 43 minutes
Two bigs: -14 in 5 minutes
Part of the story of game 1 is simply that KP stunk and the Celtics as a team stunk when he was on the floor. But the Celtics stunk worse with KP alongside Al than they did with KP as the sole big.
Game 1:
KP alone: +18 in 22 minutes
Al : +3 in 14 minutes
One big lineups: +21 in 36 minutes
Two bigs: -1 in 12 minutes
In game 1 the Celtics were overall very effective with KP on the floor and basically held their own in Al's minutes. But they again played better with one big than with two.
For the series:
One big: +25 in 79 minutes
Two bigs: -15 in 19 minutes
I wonder what kind of looks Miami is getting from three when the Celtics play 2 bigs.
The Celtics have had at least one of KP and Horford on the floor throughout both games, and not played a third center.
Game 2:
KP alone: -18 in 25 minutes
Al alone: +22 in 18 minutes
One big lineups: +4 in 43 minutes
Two bigs: -14 in 5 minutes
Part of the story of game 1 is simply that KP stunk and the Celtics as a team stunk when he was on the floor. But the Celtics stunk worse with KP alongside Al than they did with KP as the sole big.
Game 1:
KP alone: +18 in 22 minutes
Al : +3 in 14 minutes
One big lineups: +21 in 36 minutes
Two bigs: -1 in 12 minutes
In game 1 the Celtics were overall very effective with KP on the floor and basically held their own in Al's minutes. But they again played better with one big than with two.
For the series:
One big: +25 in 79 minutes
Two bigs: -15 in 19 minutes
I wonder what kind of looks Miami is getting from three when the Celtics play 2 bigs.
But wasn't that fourth quarter stretch triggered by turnovers (which overall wasn't that much of a problem last night) and #4 hitting a ton of threes (the passive defense on which seemed to carry over to last night)?
And I don't dwell on the ending of Game 1; some of us recall that the Memorial Day Massacre in 1985 (where they never took their collective foot off the gas) was followed by a home loss that turned that entire series around.
Isn't this confirming that the celts didnt play good defense AND the Heat had an outlier shooting night? They shot 41.3% on wide open 3s this year...65.2% last night.