2023-24 Celtics

Red Averages

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If the fandoms were flipped, and the Celtics were a potential playoff opponent of our favorite team, would we be happy that they sometimes don't play full intensity on defense?

No, we'd (correctly) point to the fact that they've been monstrous on that end whenever they decide to lock in, since we've seen so, so many teams do that once the playoffs start.

The team has flaws (as does everyone post-KD Dubs), but playoff defensive intensity isn't that high on my list of concerns.
For sure. I think as we get closer to the playoffs you're likely to see a lot of opponents only getting 10-20 point fourth quarters when the game is close. The Cavs (granted on a back-back), only had 14 points in the final 10 minutes. I'd expect a lot more of that type of stuff.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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If the fandoms were flipped, and the Celtics were a potential playoff opponent of our favorite team, would we be happy that they sometimes don't play full intensity on defense?

No, we'd (correctly) point to the fact that they've been monstrous on that end whenever they decide to lock in, since we've seen so, so many teams do that once the playoffs start.

The team has flaws (as does everyone post-KD Dubs), but playoff defensive intensity isn't that high on my list of concerns.
Yeah I’ll admit most of the concern in this area is definitely a bias tied to watching and focusing on this team every game. Have to remember to enjoy the ride especially before the games really matter and I won’t be able to enjoy anything through the nerves.
 

RorschachsMask

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I gotta say, while I am concerned about Jaylen’s shooting, I gotta give him credit for the way he’s played the last few weeks. It’s a lot easier to swallow meh efficiency if he’s scoring within the offense.

Also, this teams clutch numbers are hilarious lol.

TS by the top 6, and obviously it’s a short sample size.

Al 90.2
White 90.1
Zinger 75.9
Jaylen 68.6
Tatum 63.5 (gets to the line a TON in crunch time, 13-16 in 25 minutes)

If the guy taking most of your clutch shots is the lowest at 64%, good luck stopping that lmao. And I give credit to both Tatum AND Jaylen, not the Jay’s, as they are individual players. But they’ve both made a clear concerted effort to involve KP in clutch time.

This team is built to win in the playoffs.
 

lovegtm

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Yeah I’ll admit most of the concern in this area is definitely a bias tied to watching and focusing on this team every game. Have to remember to enjoy the ride especially before the games really matter and I won’t be able to enjoy anything through the nerves.
I wrote this after the 2022 Finals loss, but this post-2016 team has been one of the most fun team-building runs to watch of my life, and it looks set to continue. My routine for the past 4 years since I've been overseas has been waking up in the morning and watching the previous night's game. Many more good times than bad.

So yeah, I try to remind myself to enjoy it while it lasts, because no team lasts forever.
 

Jimbodandy

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Is beating an opponent who shoots 42+% on 45 3pA by seven points good or does it portend a lot of problems down the road?
Probably the former, but honestly a fair question IMO because...

If the fandoms were flipped, and the Celtics were a potential playoff opponent of our favorite team, would we be happy that they sometimes don't play full intensity on defense?

No, we'd (correctly) point to the fact that they've been monstrous on that end whenever they decide to lock in, since we've seen so, so many teams do that once the playoffs start.

The team has flaws (as does everyone post-KD Dubs), but playoff defensive intensity isn't that high on my list of concerns.
Yeah you're probably right. Because adding KP (massive actual rim protection) and Jrue (lockdown guard defender who can actually guard quicks) probably helps stabilize on that end come crunch time. No need to keep the defensive gas pedal down for 48x82. I'm sure that you're right. A good reason for a lot of last night's Cleveland point total was just hot shooting, which happens. The other guys are good too.

That said, I still have some PTSD from last year's Miami series. Team checked out on that end for long, long stretches. Could have been cultural, could have been coaching somewhat, but it was super frustrating. They couldn't always flip the switch. Easy to see why people have some of that baggage.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Well people can handwring all you want. Perhaps its delusional and the C's are going to be a sieve come the playoffs but I cannot get concerned when the team wins decisively despite the other guys shooting well above their own season averages - the Cavs are below the league average in 3p% at 34.6% (LA is 36.4%)
 

slamminsammya

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Well people can handwring all you want. Perhaps its delusional and the C's are going to be a sieve come the playoffs but I cannot get concerned when the team wins decisively despite the other guys shooting well above their own season averages - the Cavs are below the league average in 3p% at 34.6% (LA is 36.4%)
Im enjoying this season very much. they've had several games of taking the other teams best punch and winning with some ease anyways.
 

HomeRunBaker

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If that's the same Drew Peterson that played 6 years of college at USC he is an excellent passing point guard and not a forward despite being 6-8 or 6-9.
 

128

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If that's the same Drew Peterson that played 6 years of college at USC he is an excellent passing point guard and not a forward despite being 6-8 or 6-9.
One and the same. He's listed as a guard, I believe, his height notwithstanding.
 

benhogan

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Horford played 22 minutes last night. He is averaging 26.4 mpg for the season (avg ~31mpg when KP is out).

2BIGZ of Al/KP has been OK, nothing great (108.4/106.9/+1.5).
Not an indictment of Al, just feel they will go more situational with 2BIGZ.

still expect Hauser's minutes to creep higher
 

PedroKsBambino

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One and the same. He's listed as a guard, I believe, his height notwithstanding.
Probably just coincidence that they have he and Banton on roster/2 way but a little interesting they seem to like idea of big ballhandlers.

Also, Brad is definitely NOT all in on the Ainge-era tiny PGs
 

Devizier

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Honestly, I’m a little surprised at how stable the DARKO numbers are for all of those guys. There is only one ball after all. Of course they are winning a ton so their skills are pretty additive.
 

chilidawg

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The "Jays aren't committed to winning" crowd (could be a crowd of one) aren't going to like this. Probably not the "Jaylen's got the bag" crowd either.

You see, Mazzulla believes some of Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown’s most important contributions don’t always translate to the stat sheet. Though Mazzulla knows those guys will often be judged by their scoring averages, he has recently fought back against that idea. After the Celtics’ 120-113 win against the Cleveland Cavaliers, Mazzulla went out of his way to credit them for trusting Porziņģis and setting him up to make plays. Mazzulla likely recognized that Tatum and Brown, who combined to score 50 points, would have been overlooked otherwise because that type of production is normal for them. And Mazzulla didn’t want their play to go unnoticed.

I think it’s so hard for those two guys because they’re constantly judged by this,” Mazzulla said, motioning to a box score.

“It’s the relation of how they make people better around them, it’s their defensive ability, like, they play hard most of the time, 90 percent of the time on defense and they can dominate a game without shooting the ball,” Mazzulla said. “So with this world and all this noise about what a good player is, we have to be able to credit them when they’re playing team basketball. That’s just as valuable as having a 40(-percent) usage rate and getting 33 (points), 10 (rebounds) and 10 (assists) because your team just gives you the ball all the time.”


https://theathletic.com/5133492/2023/12/13/celtics-jayson-tatum-jalen-brown-win/
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Good athletic article on some of the Cs PnR coverages - drop, level, and hedge - and how they have KP playing them. With video.

https://theathletic.com/5135805/2023/12/14/celtics-kristaps-porzingis-signing-drew-peterson/

I thought this was a fun quote from the game v CLE:
“That’s where I thought our guys’ open-mindedness and connectivity was good. We played about every coverage imaginable today,” Mazzulla said before listing off nearly every coverage imaginable. “That was as close to a playoff game as I think we’ve had this year, from lineups changing, to matchups changing to coverages. So we have to be able to execute different coverages.["]
 

lovegtm

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Good athletic article on some of the Cs PnR coverages - drop, level, and hedge - and how they have KP playing them. With video.

https://theathletic.com/5135805/2023/12/14/celtics-kristaps-porzingis-signing-drew-peterson/

I thought this was a fun quote from the game v CLE:
“That’s where I thought our guys’ open-mindedness and connectivity was good. We played about every coverage imaginable today,” Mazzulla said before listing off nearly every coverage imaginable. “That was as close to a playoff game as I think we’ve had this year, from lineups changing, to matchups changing to coverages. So we have to be able to execute different coverages.["]
Enjoyed. Shows how, when the team is giving up unassisted 3s, it's not all "low effort" or an obvious adjustment. Lot of tradeoffs to make and different things to take away or give up.

I'm very optimistic they have the mindset and process to solve teams over a 7 game series.
 

benhogan

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Good athletic article on some of the Cs PnR coverages - drop, level, and hedge - and how they have KP playing them. With video.

https://theathletic.com/5135805/2023/12/14/celtics-kristaps-porzingis-signing-drew-peterson/

I thought this was a fun quote from the game v CLE:
“That’s where I thought our guys’ open-mindedness and connectivity was good. We played about every coverage imaginable today,” Mazzulla said before listing off nearly every coverage imaginable. “That was as close to a playoff game as I think we’ve had this year, from lineups changing, to matchups changing to coverages. So we have to be able to execute different coverages.["]
Thanks for posting.

I found this commentary from KP interesting:

“Honestly, I would say maybe I’m a bit more uncomfortable just being back (on defense) because it feels like I’m a little too passive,” Porziņģis said. “And of course, the main goal for me is to protect the rim and I’m on the backside. But whenever I’m asked or whenever I see and make those reads that I’m up and I’m more aggressive, I can also do that.”

Admittedly I like it when KP comes up, & stunts the little, then fades back into drop. Not a huge fan of the passive, deep coverage that CJM has him & Kornet playing for the first 3 Quarters. But maybe Joe just wants to throw multiple defensive actions (curveballs) and not be predictable.

Porziņģis getting aggressive late forced the ball out of Mitchell’s and Garland’s hands, while still giving the Celtics a decent shot at getting the stop. Allen made them pay, but it did start to take some wind out of Cleveland’s sails and stopped them from getting clean 3s, for the most part.

“Especially late game, just turn it on, we lock in and guard whoever. Mitchell, Garland, those super quick guys but me and all of us, we try to keep up with them and I think we’re capable of doing so,” said Porziņģis. “Yeah, it’s almost more comfortable for me to be this up and engaged, and back there I’m sometimes a bit uncomfortable, but I understand that’s what we want to do and how our defense is built, so whatever I’m being asked, I just want to do that to the best level I can.”


It's so fun having KP on this team, he enhances the JAYs skills on both sides of the floor. Very intelligent, aware player.
 

chilidawg

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One thing they did late against Cleveland, and successfully, was to put Tatum on Allen so he could switch the PnR. KP was on Wade, sagging off to give help at the rim in much the same way Ime used Rob Williams.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Enjoyed. Shows how, when the team is giving up unassisted 3s, it's not all "low effort" or an obvious adjustment. Lot of tradeoffs to make and different things to take away or give up.

I'm very optimistic they have the mindset and process to solve teams over a 7 game series.
Agree with this. The other thing that isn't mentioned is that we really don't want KP to be switching or blitzing PnRs for 30 minutes in December.

They have a lot of options on defense. A lot more than most teams.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I hope “lower calf tightness” is akin to Al’s “lower back soreness” the past couple years. Basically just an excuse to rest him on back to backs.
I am perfectly fine with the team finding him as much rest as possible this season. Its hard to see this team going deep in the playoffs without his skillset.
 

Euclis20

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I hope “lower calf tightness” is akin to Al’s “lower back soreness” the past couple years. Basically just an excuse to rest him on back to backs.
I really hope so too, but considering we did see him pull up a bit lame when he first hurt the calf a couple of weeks ago (and this isn't a back to back), I'm not optimistic.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I almost feel like you fucked up that potential joke on purpose
It was there but like the professional messageboarder I am, I posted before everything was fully formed in whatever remains of my brain. IOTW, its a day ending in Y.

In all seriousness, it kind of sucks that the league is now cracking down on load management when the Celtics now have one of the poster children for why that practice is needed. Like I said, I hope they find all sorts of creative ways to find him rest down the stretch. Even if they could somehow make it out of the EC, they would need him to have a chance against any of the potential WC contenders. Bubble wrap the dude.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I really hope so too, but considering we did see him pull up a bit lame when he first hurt the calf a couple of weeks ago (and this isn't a back to back), I'm not optimistic.
Tomorrow is a back to back though so the idea of him sitting one while Horford sits the other seems logical. I'm going with a bit to do about nothing unless he misses both games.
 

InstaFace

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Tomorrow is a back to back though so the idea of him sitting one while Horford sits the other seems logical. I'm going with a bit to do about nothing unless he misses both games.
This is my read too.

Luke Kornet better be ready to bring the thunder, tonight and tomorrow. Or Queta will be coming for his minutes.
 

Euclis20

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Tomorrow is a back to back though so the idea of him sitting one while Horford sits the other seems logical. I'm going with a bit to do about nothing unless he misses both games.
Ah I didn't realize that. I feel slightly better, although the fact that he's already played both ends of a couple back to backs this year doesn't help.
 

kieckeredinthehead

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Yeah, they’re 39.4% as a team on catch and shoot 3s. Flip side:

#1 in pull-up 3s per game (14.5)
#21 in % (31%).

White: 39% (2/game)
Holiday: 37% (3)
Hauser: 33% (1)
Brown: 32% (3)
Tatum: 29% (6)

Tatum peaked at 40% on 5 pull up threes / game in 2019-2020, and his % has gone down every year since then. Maybe they feel like even at this low percentage the threat opens up lanes elsewhere, but man imagine this team if he could make it at 40% again.
 

benhogan

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I imagine we'll see KP and Horford split back-to-backs the rest of the season.

30 mins for AL + 18 mins for Luke (or Queta).
Just live with the regular season results

+1 to shrink-wrapping Al/KP
 

lovegtm

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Agree with this. The other thing that isn't mentioned is that we really don't want KP to be switching or blitzing PnRs for 30 minutes in December.

They have a lot of options on defense. A lot more than most teams.
And....just as we say that, they go play KP and Al up to touch the whole game. Definitely gave up some stuff in the paint, but they totally took away the pull-up 3s. Cleveland's looks from outside were tough.

That one really felt like a playoff game on both sides, with the exception of Stevens seeing minutes.
 

Eddie Jurak

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The "Jays aren't committed to winning" crowd (could be a crowd of one) aren't going to like this. Probably not the "Jaylen's got the bag" crowd either.

You see, Mazzulla believes some of Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown’s most important contributions don’t always translate to the stat sheet. Though Mazzulla knows those guys will often be judged by their scoring averages, he has recently fought back against that idea. After the Celtics’ 120-113 win against the Cleveland Cavaliers, Mazzulla went out of his way to credit them for trusting Porziņģis and setting him up to make plays. Mazzulla likely recognized that Tatum and Brown, who combined to score 50 points, would have been overlooked otherwise because that type of production is normal for them. And Mazzulla didn’t want their play to go unnoticed.

I think it’s so hard for those two guys because they’re constantly judged by this,” Mazzulla said, motioning to a box score.

“It’s the relation of how they make people better around them, it’s their defensive ability, like, they play hard most of the time, 90 percent of the time on defense and they can dominate a game without shooting the ball,” Mazzulla said. “So with this world and all this noise about what a good player is, we have to be able to credit them when they’re playing team basketball. That’s just as valuable as having a 40(-percent) usage rate and getting 33 (points), 10 (rebounds) and 10 (assists) because your team just gives you the ball all the time.”


https://theathletic.com/5133492/2023/12/13/celtics-jayson-tatum-jalen-brown-win/
If you want to take shots at me, that's fine, though maybe keep it in the Hot Take thread? At any rate, I've never critized either of them for their scoring averages, though I have mentioned that Tatum's assist rate is as low as it has been since 2019-20. Along with the fact that Tatum's tunrovers have risen to a career high level even has his usage has declined. (Of the two, Brown is the guy who has gotten his turnvoers under control so far.)
 

Eddie Jurak

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Two back to back strong closes against the Cavaliers.

Horford has been phenomenal.

KP gets fouled a ton - his shooting and floor foul percentages are career highs and lead the team.

Among our starters, White and Brown are the only +/- outliers, White very high (+14.8), Brown very low (-9.8). But in the first quarter, Joe plays them together - his first sub is usually Tatum and Holiday out, Horford and Hauser in.